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 notprop wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Mainland Europe (apparently Germany in particular) is also pretty close. Based on the information I have been able to obtain, Australia and Canada are much closer to the US in terms of WFB versus 40K.

Prior to 8th edition, yes, you would be right, WHFB had a massive following.

Post 8th edition? Nope. WHFB practically disappeared from the face of the earth.

It said Mainland Europe, not the bottom left corner!

Well, bottom left corner plus my contacts in Belgium, Germany and France all say the same thing as well.

I can't say anything about the rest of the continent, of course.

Interesting that the tenor of the these discussions has gone from a large rush of fingers-in-ears "La-La-La"ing along with "But it's still a profit!" to rather matter of fact on the issue.

Read from pg21 on up, nothing terribly exciting except some folks missing the point of PP games... it's a game first, HHHobby second versus whatever GW is trying to bilk people for. Most PP players don't collect factions, they make two list tournament pairs and only purchase different stuff to either play a new faction or adapt to a meta. Unless they're crazy like me and plan out 8 lists...

And I'm watching the new Fantasy debacle to see if that turns into a real game or just completely annihilates any fanbase. Glad I sold my Bretonnia last year, though.

It is hard to deny the evidence.

At the same time, it is still a profit. In fact, impressively, GW made more profit -- £16.3M -- in 2013 on a turnover of £134.6M than they did in 2003 -- £14.5 -- on a turnover of £167.5M (figures adjusted for inflation).

GW's problem is that sales have been broadly static between 2006 and 2013 despite constant rapid price increases and in the past 18 months sales have been declining.

Sales have declined before and perhaps they will recover.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is hard to deny the evidence.

At the same time, it is still a profit. In fact, impressively, GW made more profit -- £16.3M -- in 2013 on a turnover of £134.6M than they did in 2003 -- £14.5 -- on a turnover of £167.5M (figures adjusted for inflation).

GW's problem is that sales have been broadly static between 2006 and 2013 despite constant rapid price increases and in the past 18 months sales have been declining.

Sales have declined before and perhaps they will recover.

Thats the problem with not understanding their customer base. Something (unknowable) happened and sales went up, then something (unknowable) happened and now sales are going down. It's all completely outside their control because they don't know what causes these things in the first place. All they know is that some people are OCD and will buy from them no matter what.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is hard to deny the evidence.

At the same time, it is still a profit. In fact, impressively, GW made more profit -- £16.3M -- in 2013 on a turnover of £134.6M than they did in 2003 -- £14.5 -- on a turnover of £167.5M (figures adjusted for inflation).

GW's problem is that sales have been broadly static between 2006 and 2013 despite constant rapid price increases and in the past 18 months sales have been declining.

Sales have declined before and perhaps they will recover.

But what about the unemployed Cypriot youths?

And minimum wage?!

Sorry... but it looks more like the folks that were really good at denying evidence just aren't posting much, anymore.

I do not think that it is because of the difficulty of denial - it is just that they are starting to realize that when they are wrong they will be mocked for it.

Not sure how, or even if, GW can pull out of their current decline, at least without admitting that their entire sales model is rubbish.

Right now their crops have begun to whither.

The Auld Grump

Considering the rumored update to Fantasy and the net loss of brick and mortar stores it looks like GW knows what's wrong and they're trying to fix it.

Assuming the rumors to be true (and they are looking pretty true so far) for WFB I imagine that there will be some vets who will leave (because it's change and anytime change happens you lose customers), and it'll be a little rocky before they start to see new players finally coming in again. That or it'll finally kill that game and they'll double down on 40k freeing themselves of a money sink that is a failing game system.

I think the next financial report, and the coming months, may prove to be interesting with a new CEO in the big chair. I know people want to accuse him of just being Kirby's sock puppet, but I want to see what actually happens with him in charge before I pass any judgement on him. I'm cautiously optimistic that having someone who isn't Kirby in charge may finally help things (since the board is elected by the Shareholders and not Kirby it means that there is a chance that he and Kirby don't march in step about everything) towards a company that is managed in a way that generally makes it look less like it's trying to intentionally burn all it's bridges with the customer base.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is hard to deny the evidence.

At the same time, it is still a profit. In fact, impressively, GW made more profit -- £16.3M -- in 2013 on a turnover of £134.6M than they did in 2003 -- £14.5 -- on a turnover of £167.5M (figures adjusted for inflation).

GW's problem is that sales have been broadly static between 2006 and 2013 despite constant rapid price increases and in the past 18 months sales have been declining.

Sales have declined before and perhaps they will recover.

Don't think I had dropped this chart here (pardon, I haven't up dated it in a couple reports)...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Design costs have been largely flat.

Administrative costs have climbed significantly (and since come down a little...).

COGS largely follow units sold.

Selling and distribution (retail stores, warehousing, shipping and managing independent accounts...) need to be brought under control.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One other tidbit which I had gotten this past year...

Their licensing department now costs them more than it makes...by almost double. Apparently that was a big factor in the rather large glut of "official" games which had been issued in the last couple years. THQ's melt down is actually causing them to have to work, but they don't know how to do their job (previously, the existing license had just been handed down - year after year for nearly a decade).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Considering the rumored update to Fantasy and the net loss of brick and mortar stores it looks like GW knows what's wrong and they're trying to fix it.

Looking at the 40k releases of recent, I say they're not trying to fix it. It continues to be a terrible game of either trying to make units better with "the randemz", deleting what doesn't fit, and making everything so boring and vanilla that is can't help to inspire anyone.

 TheKbob wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Considering the rumored update to Fantasy and the net loss of brick and mortar stores it looks like GW knows what's wrong and they're trying to fix it.

Looking at the 40k releases of recent, I say they're not trying to fix it. It continues to be a terrible game of either trying to make units better with "the randemz", deleting what doesn't fit, and making everything so boring and vanilla that is can't help to inspire anyone.

I disagree. I think they're trying to even the playing field out so the game is more fun for everyone involved to play and there are less "you need X to win" units in the new books while closing any holes in their product lines that 3rd party companies can exploit with models designed to fill those holes (the CHS Tervigon for instance).

Yes, it's a kick in the shins for anyone whose codex is getting knocked down a peg, but from what I've been seeing it really feels like the 7th ed codexes have better internal balance and are more balanced with each other than before. Once they're updated I'd be surprised if we didn't eventually see releases like the Tyranids got where the rules and models get stand alone releases that helps update the army without needing a new book (you know, kind of like how the rumors for 7th said would eventually happen and we've seen with the Nids already) every single time and eventually just get added to the next book (along with any updates that need to occur, kind of how the IA books work).

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But what about the unemployed Cypriot youths?

And minimum wage?!

Sorry... but it looks more like the folks that were really good at denying evidence just aren't posting much, anymore.

I do not think that it is because of the difficulty of denial - it is just that they are starting to realize that when they are wrong they will be mocked for it.

Not sure how, or even if, GW can pull out of their current decline, at least without admitting that their entire sales model is rubbish.

Right now their crops have begun to whither.

The Auld Grump

I miss Derek's comments, they were, uhm interesting.
But how long can GW continue on this road, the price increases must hit a wall sometime.
Well the decline in sales show that only the most die-hard fans are still willing to pay those prices.
Or as a certain person said "if you cannot afford it don't play (you peasant!)"

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is hard to deny the evidence.

At the same time, it is still a profit. In fact, impressively, GW made more profit -- £16.3M -- in 2013 on a turnover of £134.6M than they did in 2003 -- £14.5 -- on a turnover of £167.5M (figures adjusted for inflation).

GW's problem is that sales have been broadly static between 2006 and 2013 despite constant rapid price increases and in the past 18 months sales have been declining.

Sales have declined before and perhaps they will recover.

Don't think I had dropped this chart here (pardon, I haven't up dated it in a couple reports)...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Design costs have been largely flat.

Administrative costs have climbed significantly (and since come down a little...).

COGS largely follow units sold.

Selling and distribution (retail stores, warehousing, shipping and managing independent accounts...) need to be brought under control.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One other tidbit which I had gotten this past year...

Their licensing department now costs them more than it makes...by almost double. Apparently that was a big factor in the rather large glut of "official" games which had been issued in the last couple years. THQ's melt down is actually causing them to have to work, but they don't know how to do their job (previously, the existing license had just been handed down - year after year for nearly a decade).

LOL, tough cookies Mr. Jones. I'm not surprised though, Andy Jones has his head incredibly far up his .

weeble1000 wrote:
LOL, tough cookies Mr. Jones. I'm not surprised though, Andy Jones has his head incredibly far up his .

If it makes you feel any better, apparently he was persona non grata for several months (may still be) in the halls of the Ivory Tower. Apparently Kirby was not at all pleased. Merret was quick to throw them under the bus on it all (as any good lackey is prone to do...). Unfortunately, my primary source for information from that side of their business found a different job...so I have been seeking a new mole.

Back towards the topic. The chart I posted above does a good bit to demonstrate the folly of the GW retail model. Because of their retail chain, the idea of selling fewer items at a higher cost works with some merchandise...in particular, if someone else is doing the selling. Because of the weight of the retail chain though - GW is selling less, but they still have to pay leases, utilities and payroll on that side of the business. Switching to one man shops helps a bit - but not nearly enough.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Considering the rumored update to Fantasy and the net loss of brick and mortar stores it looks like GW knows what's wrong and they're trying to fix it.

They certainly have the potential to turn it round with the WHF reboot, but with everything else they've done in the last few years they've ruined it all in the execution (updated 7th Ed, Rules only books, Space Hulk, Dreadfleet, Finecast, White Dwarf).

I'm sure they have some suspicion of what's going wrong but I'm not confident they actually have the expertise to fix it now. Hopefully WHF will be great and I can get on board with it, but I'm sure it'll still have all the same problems as the old one (clunky rules, poor balance, lots of expensive minis, randomness coming out of their eyeballs).

There's a very, very interesting 21-min-ish documentary about LEGO on Netflix or Amazon Video, forget which.

It tells of how LEGO nearly died in the 80s/90s, and how they reversed fortunes by massively reducing the product range, focussing back in on what their core customers really wanted, and returning to growth from that reduced base, all under the tutelage of a new CEO who came in from outside the family that had run the company (and run it into the ground) since its inception.

Gee Dubs should watch it...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Considering the rumored update to Fantasy and the net loss of brick and mortar stores it looks like GW knows what's wrong and they're trying to fix it.

Assuming the rumors to be true (and they are looking pretty true so far) for WFB I imagine that there will be some vets who will leave (because it's change and anytime change happens you lose customers), and it'll be a little rocky before they start to see new players finally coming in again. That or it'll finally kill that game and they'll double down on 40k freeing themselves of a money sink that is a failing game system.

I think the next financial report, and the coming months, may prove to be interesting with a new CEO in the big chair. I know people want to accuse him of just being Kirby's sock puppet, but I want to see what actually happens with him in charge before I pass any judgement on him. I'm cautiously optimistic that having someone who isn't Kirby in charge may finally help things (since the board is elected by the Shareholders and not Kirby it means that there is a chance that he and Kirby don't march in step about everything) towards a company that is managed in a way that generally makes it look less like it's trying to intentionally burn all it's bridges with the customer base.

I disagree.

The reason why GW is focusing on revamping Fantasy isn't because they've identified it as the source of their economic woes, its because they launched a new edition of 40k just last year and even GW isn't dumb enough to try and launch a new edition of 40k each year to try and generate revenue.

WHFB 8th edition has failed and caused allot of players to jump ship, but so did 40K 6th edition and there is no evidence whatsoever that 7th edition did anything to reverse the flow of players dropping the system, if anything the "anything goes" and nickel and dime DLC mentality of 7th caused even more players to leave.

9th edition has the potential to kickstart that part of the IP back, but for it to do that the game would need not only some pretty amazing rules but GW would need to start communicating with its customers to try and win back some of the good will that they've lost in the past years. Since 9th edition rumours, be they true or false, aren't being explained nor commented on in any capacity by GW, it is pretty safe to say that they still haven't gotten their head around the "talk to your player base" concept.

Add this to the extreme incompetence shown by GW when it comes to developing any new rules for any of their products and the odds that 9th edition will do anything other than completely bury Fantasy once and for all are pretty slim.

Even with a new version of Fantasy, I think GW is sunk. The gaming world is changing quickly and many of the changes fly in the face o what GW wants to do.

The most recent release of D&D 5th is a good example. WotC published a starter box with a small campaign for $15, most of the same rules could be found online for free as well should you choose to look. I have enough information to play a game for and see how I liked the system before setting foot in a store or spending one dime. I also know what the upcoming releases are for the next several months without having to read an unofficial forum somewhere.

GW is probably, thought to be, might be releasing a new version of Fantasy sometime in the next few months, 2nd quarter, sometime soon? The game may change the rules dramatically, but maybe not, might still support current style armies? The only sure way to find out is to read an unofficial forum somewhere or shell out $100 to find out if the game is any good when/if it is finally released.

No thanks, I'll take my money and buy a booster box of MTG or the D&D Adventure's Handbook in March.

In order for GW to correct the problem, they'd have to know what the problem is. I don't think they have a fundamental understanding of what's actually going on with the market and their business. They see sales decline in fantasy, so they think "well, we better do something big!" They didn't realize that it was their own rules and massive buy-in cost that did fantasy in. It's like a doctor prescribing a chemotherapy for a broken leg.

I generally agree that the one critical piece GW generally lacks versus the larger miniatures market is an easy and obvious way to get from 0 to full army.

'Every other game system' you can start with a very small number of models, play a game (granted at varying levels of balance/quality), buy some more models and play a slightly bigger game, etc.

None of the other growing companies have a game structure of both $500+ buy-in to play a standard format and no building blocks to get there.

If GW suits were gamers, they'd probably know this. Which, I guess, is the actual problem.

PhantomViper wrote:
I disagree.

The reason why GW is focusing on revamping Fantasy isn't because they've identified it as the source of their economic woes, its because they launched a new edition of 40k just last year and even GW isn't dumb enough to try and launch a new edition of 40k each year to try and generate revenue.

I have to disagree with that notion because anyone in the company who can see the budget sheets in the company can see how much is being poured into every release for development and then how little the return is. This isn't rocket surgery.

I think they've known the game is on a downward spiral for some time. I mean 8th dropped July 2010. That's 5 years to watch things get progressively worse a this point and I believe it's been enough to make them rethink how they're approaching the game.

PhantomViper wrote:
WHFB 8th edition has failed and caused allot of players to jump ship, but so did 40K 6th edition and there is no evidence whatsoever that 7th edition did anything to reverse the flow of players dropping the system, if anything the "anything goes" and nickel and dime DLC mentality of 7th caused even more players to leave.

People like to say that there are still large hordes of people leaving these days, but frankly I think most of the people who were leaving (and didn't get replaced by new players like what regularly happens in games) were when 6th dropped and the big tournament play largely went away. The only people truly being nickled and dimed are the ones who insist on collecting everything GW ever makes. Everyone else isn't constantly dumping money into the hobby beyond the same occasional updates they were doing before. And the "DLC updates" are 100% optional. They aren't required to play, and only add a different way to play an army if it's something you're interested in playing.

PhantomViper wrote:
9th edition has the potential to kickstart that part of the IP back, but for it to do that the game would need not only some pretty amazing rules but GW would need to start communicating with its customers to try and win back some of the good will that they've lost in the past years. Since 9th edition rumours, be they true or false, aren't being explained nor commented on in any capacity by GW, it is pretty safe to say that they still haven't gotten their head around the "talk to your player base" concept.

The problem isn't the people writing the rules on that end, but the higher ups who seem to think that customers shouldn't be talked to. Maybe having a new CEO will help, I don't know. I want to give the new guy time to see if he's just a Kirby clone or if he has new ideas that may actually change things.

And I agree, it could do a lot to help the game, especially if GW stops pretending we shouldn't be talked to, but at the same time I don't expect GW to even look at saying anything until closer to release of whatever it is. I mean we're roughly 6+ months out last I head and it's possible that if they're going to make something to address us with it won't be for a while.

PhantomViper wrote:
Add this to the extreme incompetence shown by GW when it comes to developing any new rules for any of their products and the odds that 9th edition will do anything other than completely bury Fantasy once and for all are pretty slim.

I'm going to agree to disagree on how bad the rules are since I feel the 7th Edition codexes in 40k have finally started to show real internal and external balance and are leading towards a game that is a lot more fair to play than before. And I'm withholding judgement on 9th until I see it because if Pancake edition taught me anything is that rumors don't always pan out like we think.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I have to disagree with that notion because anyone in the company who can see the budget sheets in the company can see how much is being poured into every release for development and then how little the return is. This isn't rocket surgery.

I think they've known the game is on a downward spiral for some time. I mean 8th dropped July 2010. That's 5 years to watch things get progressively worse a this point and I believe it's been enough to make them rethink how they're approaching the game.

Do you have any actual proof of that? Because their latest financial report directly contradicts what you are saying by placing the blame of their falling sales on their store managers, besides, they have literally watched LoTR loose them money for how many years now? And what did they do about that? You are giving GW WAY too much credit. The new edition is simply another attempt to cash in on the edition release cycle AND if the 9th edition rumours regarding "limited edition mania now with even more MtG" are true, its going to bomb spectacularly because they are trying to adopt the limited availability of CCGs into miniature games, just like they did with DLC!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

People like to say that there are still large hordes of people leaving these days, but frankly I think most of the people who were leaving (and didn't get replaced by new players like what regularly happens in games) were when 6th dropped and the big tournament play largely went away. The only people truly being nickled and dimed are the ones who insist on collecting everything GW ever makes. Everyone else isn't constantly dumping money into the hobby beyond the same occasional updates they were doing before. And the "DLC updates" are 100% optional. They aren't required to play, and only add a different way to play an army if it's something you're interested in playing.

I said that 6th edition caused a large number of players to leave the game and 7th edition not only didn't bring them back, but judging by the still falling sales numbers, people are still leaving the game, or simply not buying anything, which pretty much amounts to the same thing where GW is concerned.

And the DLC updates are only optional if you wan't to play with a reduced version of your former codex, since the majority of them are comprised of options that used to be on the codex but aren't anymore. So please cut that "it is optional" line, because everyone knows that its a lie in the majority of the cases.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


I'm going to agree to disagree on how bad the rules are since I feel the 7th Edition codexes in 40k have finally started to show real internal and external balance and are leading towards a game that is a lot more fair to play than before. And I'm withholding judgement on 9th until I see it because if Pancake edition taught me anything is that rumors don't always pan out like we think.

Disagree all you wan't, but since the company keeps loosing customers it seems like you are in the minority.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
I disagree.

The reason why GW is focusing on revamping Fantasy isn't because they've identified it as the source of their economic woes, its because they launched a new edition of 40k just last year and even GW isn't dumb enough to try and launch a new edition of 40k each year to try and generate revenue.

I have to disagree with that notion because anyone in the company who can see the budget sheets in the company can see how much is being poured into every release for development and then how little the return is. This isn't rocket surgery.

None of which tells them why it's failing, which was PhantomViper's point.

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I have to disagree with that notion because anyone in the company who can see the budget sheets in the company can see how much is being poured into every release for development and then how little the return is. This isn't rocket surgery.

I think they've known the game is on a downward spiral for some time. I mean 8th dropped July 2010. That's 5 years to watch things get progressively worse a this point and I believe it's been enough to make them rethink how they're approaching the game.

Do you have any actual proof of that? Because their latest financial report directly contradicts what you are saying by placing the blame of their falling sales on their store managers, besides, they have literally watched LoTR loose them money for how many years now? And what did they do about that? You are giving GW WAY too much credit. The new edition is simply another attempt to cash in on the edition release cycle AND if the 9th edition rumours regarding "limited edition mania now with even more MtG" are true, its going to bomb spectacularly because they are trying to adopt the limited availability of CCGs into miniature games, just like they did with DLC!

You do know they're locked into a deal with LotR right? It's not the same thing as fantasy. Plus they can't just run off and remake LotR into something else if they feel it's not working as is anymore.

And personally I think you're putting too much malice into their actions.

Baragash wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

People like to say that there are still large hordes of people leaving these days, but frankly I think most of the people who were leaving (and didn't get replaced by new players like what regularly happens in games) were when 6th dropped and the big tournament play largely went away. The only people truly being nickled and dimed are the ones who insist on collecting everything GW ever makes. Everyone else isn't constantly dumping money into the hobby beyond the same occasional updates they were doing before. And the "DLC updates" are 100% optional. They aren't required to play, and only add a different way to play an army if it's something you're interested in playing.

I said that 6th edition caused a large number of players to leave the game and 7th edition not only didn't bring them back, but judging by the still falling sales numbers, people are still leaving the game, or simply not buying anything, which pretty much amounts to the same thing where GW is concerned.

And the DLC updates are only optional if you wan't to play with a reduced version of your former codex, since the majority of them are comprised of options that used to be on the codex but aren't anymore. So please cut that "it is optional" line, because everyone knows that its a lie in the majority of the cases.

Which supplements have added new things to the books right after they were taken away? If you can show me that you might have a point, but so far they've added stuff that didn't exist in those books before.

Baragash wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


I'm going to agree to disagree on how bad the rules are since I feel the 7th Edition codexes in 40k have finally started to show real internal and external balance and are leading towards a game that is a lot more fair to play than before. And I'm withholding judgement on 9th until I see it because if Pancake edition taught me anything is that rumors don't always pan out like we think.

Disagree all you wan't, but since the company keeps loosing customers it seems like you are in the minority.

I've mulled if over and yeah I'm not seeing your way on this. The game, in my opinion, is better. Just because people are leaving doesn't mean it's getting worse. You're assuming every person only left the game, or hasn't bought anything because of the quality of the rules, not because they don't play the updated armies, had other reasons to leave, or don't have time to play so didn't purchase anything.

There are dozens of reasons to stop playing a game, and rules are only one of them. And frankly with the way the books are being written right now I don't think it's a reason unless someone got mad about being nerfed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
I disagree.

The reason why GW is focusing on revamping Fantasy isn't because they've identified it as the source of their economic woes, its because they launched a new edition of 40k just last year and even GW isn't dumb enough to try and launch a new edition of 40k each year to try and generate revenue.

I have to disagree with that notion because anyone in the company who can see the budget sheets in the company can see how much is being poured into every release for development and then how little the return is. This isn't rocket surgery.

None of which tells them why it's failing, which was PhantomViper's point.

Just because GW doesn't talk to us, doesn't mean they are completely blind and deaf to the internet.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There's a very, very interesting 21-min-ish documentary about LEGO on Netflix or Amazon Video, forget which.

It tells of how LEGO nearly died in the 80s/90s, and how they reversed fortunes by massively reducing the product range, focussing back in on what their core customers really wanted, and returning to growth from that reduced base, all under the tutelage of a new CEO who came in from outside the family that had run the company (and run it into the ground) since its inception.

Gee Dubs should watch it...

The documentary is called Inside: Lego. It's available on Netflix.
And I agree: there might be valuable lessons here for GW.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Just because GW doesn't talk to us, doesn't mean they are completely blind and deaf to the internet
.

The fact that the then Chairman and CEO publicly admitted that they take no notice not good enough for you?

Even if you take that as a tongue in cheek comment, I still defy you to point to where this interaction with 'the Internet' is happening.

I don't expect you mean that they simply monitor Dakka and their ilk, simply because that would be worthless to gauge any sort of feedback. Without a reasonable knowledge of who is answering your questions, you substantially devalue the information you're gaining. For instance, I consider myself a "customer in waiting" ie I have substantially reduced my GW focussed spend, but am prepared to buy/buy again when I feel a purchase is warranted. Therefore, while I may seem quite "anti-GW" to the casual observer, my feedback is probably more useful to GW than someone who has written GW off and posts here purely to vomit anti-GW sentiment everywhere. That's not to mention all the simple, common demographics needed to provide research with a context which aren't easily available via a forum.

I'm also sure you don't mean that online survey from the webstore, something so remarkable that it warranted it's own thread, twice, which is likely a tool for the developers and nothing to do with the sales and/or quality of product on offer.

So, how, exactly, do you suggest, is GW receiving pertinent information over the Internet with a complete lack of evidence that they're making any attempt to do so?

TheKbob wrote:Interesting that the tenor of the these discussions has gone from a large rush of fingers-in-ears "La-La-La"ing along with "But it's still a profit!" to rather matter of fact on the issue.

Read from pg21 on up, nothing terribly exciting except some folks missing the point of PP games... it's a game first, HHHobby second versus whatever GW is trying to bilk people for. Most PP players don't collect factions, they make two list tournament pairs and only purchase different stuff to either play a new faction or adapt to a meta. Unless they're crazy like me and plan out 8 lists...

And I'm watching the new Fantasy debacle to see if that turns into a real game or just completely annihilates any fanbase. Glad I sold my Bretonnia last year, though.

I'm still waiting for runicfin to make an appearance. I remember him stating vehemently that things were on the up for games workshop and that the latest figures would prove it when they were released.

ClockworkZion wrote:Considering the rumored update to Fantasy and the net loss of brick and mortar stores it looks like GW knows what's wrong and they're trying to fix it.

I think it's more likely that they know *something* is wrong, and they'd like to fix it (without changing what they do). Hence fantasy turning to a hyper-exaggerated model of how they've been operating so far. It's not going to work.

ClockworkZion wrote:
You do know they're locked into a deal with LotR right? It's not the same thing as fantasy. Plus they can't just run off and remake LotR into something else if they feel it's not working as is anymore.

And personally I think you're putting too much malice into their actions.

They were killing LotR long before they renewed their contract. I remember at the time people (myself included) wondering why they even chose to renew their contract. I'm still wondering.

Is it malice (greed) or stupidity (greed)? Either way, it's deliberate.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Which supplements have added new things to the books right after they were taken away? If you can show me that you might have a point, but so far they've added stuff that didn't exist in those books before.

Just one example? Imperial assassins in 40k.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm going to agree to disagree on how bad the rules are since I feel the 7th Edition codexes in 40k have finally started to show real internal and external balance and are leading towards a game that is a lot more fair to play than before. And I'm withholding judgement on 9th until I see it because if Pancake edition taught me anything is that rumors don't always pan out like we think.

Well, some people like it and some don't. The numbers seem to suggest there's more of the latter than the former, significantly more. Pancake edition is a perfect example of the problem: people were salivating like hungry dogs over it, and instead got 6th edition and were disappointed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because GW doesn't talk to us, doesn't mean they are completely blind and deaf to the internet.

Doesn't mean they're not aware and dismissing it out of hand, either.

edit: tidying

Assasins started as a stand alone codex and if you wanted to use them in a non-GK army you were stuck allying things in that you didn't want. The same problem existed in the Inq book too. They went back to their roots and are more easilly available for people who don't want a bunch of other models just to field something that by all rits shouldn't be mixed into a larger army's codex.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Assasins started as a stand alone codex and if you wanted to use them in a non-GK army you were stuck allying things in that you didn't want. The same problem existed in the Inq book too. They went back to their roots and are more easilly available for people who don't want a bunch of other models just to field something that by all rits shouldn't be mixed into a larger army's codex.

Regardless, it's still the example of them taking something out of the book that you asked for.

It hardly proves your point of the whole game going to a pay to win format though when it was fixing an actual problem with the Assassins and their inability to work seperately from codexes they didn't belong in.

I think the supplements that have been coming out are pretty crappy. The DE covens book is $50 to turn Grotesques into killing machines with very little on the downside except having to pay $50 for the rules. It just feels like it's getting more and more into the "pay to win" category with things in 40k.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It hardly proves your point of the whole game going to a pay to win format though when it was fixing an actual problem with the Assassins and their inability to work separately from codexes they didn't belong in.

You asked for an example, he gave you an example. Looted wagons, another example, scions, etc... We could also take umbrage with the whole Day0 DLC model of supplements that started towards the end of 6th. They could have rolled the Farsight Enclaves info in with the main Tau book but chose to charge people $50 for the privilege to play their army a different way, the same with every army since.