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Everyone I've ever played or talked to has decried VVs as a sub-par unit. To be fair, they're basically an Assault Squad with better (more expensive) wargear and an extra point of Ld.

I feel like there is too little differentiation between VVs and Assault Squads with the 6th Edition changes to Heroic Intervention. This is something that could be fixed by changing them from Jump Infantry to Jep Pack Infantry. If they're veterans, they should be more experienced, and the change could reflect them having more control over their jump packs. It would also allow for varying tactics, such as gunslinger squads JSJ'ing in and our of cover. I think it would be a decent solution for making the vanguard relevant again.


Thoughts?

This actually sounds like a good plan.

Maybe something like this:

VANGUARD VETERANS:

Jet Pack Infantry. Veteran Sargent is Jet Pack Infantry (Character)

Cost: 20(?) points/model

OPTIONS:

The entire unit may trade their Chainswords for Bolt Pistols (Not sure about the cost, maybe 2-3 points?). They may fire both bolt pistols in the Shooting Phase as normal. Due to their extreme gunslinging skill, they may use their bolt pistols at a range of 18''.

This would potentially be a powerful setup, as they could launch barrage of 7-15 boltgun hits, then charge the unit they attacked, or JSJ back to cover.

AND ANOTHER THING!

Give them Astartes Recoil gloves. The Recoil glove is an item from Only War that lets you fire a 2-haded weapon like a lasgun with one hand. This would mean that they could take chainswords AND full boltguns, or, more importantly, special weapons. For example, 2 flamers in a squad of VVs would give them a nice ability to sweep Cover Campers before a charge, and provide a decent assult screen.

What do you guys think?

Surely the whole point of assault squads is for them to assault and making them jetpack infantry would make that more difficult.

Jump Infantry can, theoretically, charge from 24" away, while jetpack infantry can only charge from 18".

surely that means that jump packs are better for "assault" squads

Taffy17 wrote:
Surely the whole point of assault squads is for them to assault and making them jetpack infantry would make that more difficult.

Jump Infantry can, theoretically, charge from 24" away, while jetpack infantry can only charge from 18".

surely that means that jump packs are better for "assault" squads

Yes, but a Jetpack unit can move using its Jump Pack in the Movement phase to move 12'' instead of 6'', so their threat radius would be 12+3d6'' rather than 6+4d6'', which Mathhammers out to a slightly higher average distance.

And I think that the OP's idea was to focus on the 'Jump Pack' Aspect of the Assault Marines rather than the 'choppy' aspect. Giving them decent guns or especially special weapons options as I proposed would, combined with the Relentless upgrade from being Jetpack rather than Jump pack units, allow them to effectively use a 'Gunslinging' combat style that mixes limited shooting with assault effectively.

Heir of the Void wrote:
Yes, but a Jetpack unit can move using its Jump Pack in the Movement phase to move 12'' instead of 6'', so their threat radius would be 12+3d6'' rather than 6+4d6'', which Mathhammers out to a slightly higher average distance.

This is not true. Jet Pack units move the same distance as regular infantry in the movement phase, the only difference is that they interact with terrain and other models differently.

Imho Jet Packs shouldn't be available for imperial units, only characters at most. You could represent their mastery of their chosen tools if you would allow them to use their Jump Pack twice per turn like they could with RG CT or let them reroll their run-dice.

The biggest problem is that they lost the ability to assault after deepstriking, thereby depriving them of their best asset. I think that the ability to JSJ and interact with cover would be beneficial as it allows them to move around the battlefield and wear down units before charging in. This would reflect a more tactical approach than standard Assault Marines, as befits their nature as veterans.

My preference would be base cost 20-22, with a starting squad size of 3 or 5. Equip them with the jump pack, a bolt pistol, and a CCW.

Upgrades:
5 points for a second pistol
5 points for a recoil glove (per hand)
10 points per plasma pistol
10 points for a compact bolter (assault 1, 18" range)
20 points for flamer/melta
25 points for Grav/Plasma
25 points for Artificer Armor

Then the sarge should be able to get rad grenades for 15 and a relic blade for 20. For the other wargear, keep the original prices.

Btw you don't need those gloves. Two handed is only left as a stat for melee weapons canceling out the additional attack from dual wielding. In the current rules your ranged weapon only determine if you are allowed to charge not how many attacks you have.
Iirc before 5th edition (should be 3rd) some models (Grey Hunters and Plague Marines iirc) had a usr called 'true grit' or something similar named, which allowed them to treat their Bolter as an additional ccw in melee just like a pistol. If you really want to include the recoil gloves you could give them something comparable.

I'd rather create an assault bolter that trades rapid fire and 6" of range to be treated as a CCW. Maybe useable by Assault Squads and Honor/Command Squads, too.

Other than that, does that combination of wargear prices sound good?

I was also thinking, and I realized that the change to Jet Pack infantry loses HoW hits on the charge. I think that adding Fleet and/or Furious Charge could compensate, allowing for a better charge distance and/or stronger CCW hits.

Side note, I feel like it would be broken, but I kind of want to find a way to give the sarge Smash.

Thoughts?

 TranSpyre wrote:
I'd rather create an assault bolter that trades rapid fire and 6" of range to be treated as a CCW. Maybe useable by Assault Squads and Honor/Command Squads, too.

Other than that, does that combination of wargear prices sound good?

I'd bump the cost down on the Assault bolter, its basically just a bolt pistol with 6'' extra range, and keep the cost for the special weapons at their normal codex levels, OR have compact versions that are useable as CQC weapons. Or something.

Having the special weapons should mean losing the attack bonus on one of your guys.

And the idea behind the assault bolter is that it gives you the option to charge after firing. Maybe make it a 5 point upgrade to bolt pistols in general for VVs, so it's 10 points total?

You could give them something akin to the Angelus Patter Bolters of the Blood Angels.

Failing that something like this

X Pattern Bolter S4 AP5 Range 18" Assault 1, Sturdy Construction*

Sturdy Construction - X Pattern Bolters have been designed to be used in close combat as bludgeoning weapons, they counts as CCWs in the Assault Phase.

 BrotherStynier wrote:
You could give them something akin to the Angelus Patter Bolters of the Blood Angels.

Failing that something like this

X Pattern Bolter S4 AP5 Range 18" Assault 1, Sturdy Construction*

Sturdy Construction - X Pattern Bolters have been designed to be used in close combat as bludgeoning weapons, they counts as CCWs in the Assault Phase.

Sounds like a great idea.

So, do you guys think it would be worth a CQC attack to add a flamer to a Relentless VV squad?

Since flamers are assault weapons they wouldn't need to be Relentless.

A flamer can generally always be a useful addition, gives you the option of causing additional wounds in the shooting phase. The loss of one attack shouldn't be much.

I forget off the top of my head, can VV take Flamers?

 BrotherStynier wrote:
Since flamers are assault weapons they wouldn't need to be Relentless.

A flamer can generally always be a useful addition, gives you the option of causing additional wounds in the shooting phase. The loss of one attack shouldn't be much.

I forget off the top of my head, can VV take Flamers?

Not at present, which is silly, because at present, Assault Marines can take 2 per squad.

JSJ sounds pointless for a unit that is always in 12" range with pistols.

I much rather them get back heroic intervention (the one that lets them assault after DSing) (and say it only works on t2+)

Its ether that or they just need a significant points reduction and that would be that.

If I wanted them to assault on delivery, I'd cough up the 35 points for a drop pod. The idea is that the niche they're currently supposed to fill is already done better by Terminators and regular assault squads. So my intention was to give them a new niche, that of mobile harassers that won't just fold and die if they get thrown into CC. Giving them the ability to JSJ, as well as the ability to take what I'll currently call an assault bolter/special weapons is a step in that direction. Even if they were limited to flamers, grav pistols, and plasma pistols, it'd still make for a playable unit that would allow a change in play styles. Since they would still be equipped with jump packs, it'd make Raven Guard tactics nicer. They would fit well into BT since they have decent melee capabilities. White Scars would give them hit and run, which would allow them to serve as re-usable tarpits. And they would at least be usable by every other chapter tactic.

And I was also thinking, and I realized that the change to Jet Pack infantry loses HoW hits on the charge. I think that adding Fleet and/or Furious Charge could compensate, allowing for a better charge distance and/or stronger CCW hits.

Edit: Maybe give them access to storm bolters and a melee weapon as a configuration?

I dont know, i would go in a completely diferent direction with those. I would try to mitigate the debuffs 6th an 7th give to assault in general... Simple things like:

- Immunity to overwatch, or a dedicated saving throw against it (4++)
- Fixed Assault distance, or at least a partially fixed charge distance (like d6+6 instead of 2d6)

Them i would start to buff them in the same places they always lacked it:

- Higher WS, reduced cost into special close combat weapons, some sort of defensive sperk... Maybe fearless if they had been involve in close combat this turn,,.

So right now this is what I'm thinking, especially since I reread the SOIAF, and thought about what a vanguard is.

Vanguard Veterans - 135
Jet pack Infantry, Fleet, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, Heroic Charge
4 Vets, 1 Sarge
Vets - WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I5/A3/Ld8/Sv3+
Sarge - WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I5/A4/Ld9/Sv3+

Heroic Charge - During the turn this unit initiates combat, it gains the Smash special rule. This unit may not initiate combat with the same unit two turns in a row.

Basic Wargear:
Vets - Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Assault Pack, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Sarge - Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Assault Pack, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

Upgrades:
You may take up to 5 extra Vanguard Veterans - 27 points each
Any model may take meltabombs for - 5 points
Any model may replace his Chainsword with a Bolt Pistol - 5 points
Any model may replace a Bolt Pistol with the following:
Indominatus Pattern Bolter - 10 points
Plasma Pistol - 10 points
Graviton Pistol - 15 points

Any model may replace a weapon with the following:
Storm Shield - 20 points
Power Sword - 10 points
Power Maul - 10 points
Power Axe - 15 points
Lightning Claws - 15 points
Power Fist - 20 points
Relic Blade - 20 points
Thunder Hammer - 25 points

The Sarge may Master-Craft a single weapon - 10 points
The Sarge may take Artificer Armour - 20 points

Indominatus Pattern Bolter -
R[18"]/S[4]/AP[5]/ Assault 1, Sturdy

Sturdy - A weapon with this rule is considered a CCW for the purposes of calculating attacks in combat.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does that sound?

Drop Pods don't allow an assault after deployment and are more expensive than the 3pts per model that the jump packs VV's currently can purchase to DS in.

Personally I'd hate changing my VV's to jet packs. Using RG chapter traits they can be quite bothersome in MoW missions as objective takers. I tend to think that ASM's are better harass type units. I equip my VV's with a few storm shields and some melta bombs, keep them cheap and attach them to either Korvydae or a JP Chapter Master. They bring a lot of attacks and are quite effective at killing something in an assault.

The return of Heroic Intervention would be great, but that's been a busted dream since everyone complained in 5th that DS units assaulting ruined the game. Look what we have now, busted assault... RG VV's already get to use the JP in the movement as well as assault phase, get to re-roll HoW wounds and can get Hit and Run with Korvydae. The temptation to take wargear on them can really ruin the unit IMO, but if you control yourself and keep them cheap.

They are well worth the points and have performed admirably for me on many occasions. I think the RG chapter traits are way off as far as the fitting the character of the RG. But they actually make the VV's work quite well, especially with Korvydae.

Vanguard Veterans are supposed to be an assault unit, Jet Packs are for shooting-oriented models. A better fix for them would be re-pricing their equipment, if it were affordable to run storm shields and special close combat weapons on Vanguard squads there would be more reason to use them.

Right now they are assault units, my point is that other units fit that role better. I think they should have a different role, that of harasser more than anything else.

I think what you are looking for is the Catulan Reaver Squads of the Sons of Horus from the Horus Heresy Book 2. They are harassers, and in my opinion a cooler Elites choice than the Sternguard or Vanguard. If only because of their on paper tactical flexibility and my experience in a Deathwatch game with a squad all out fitted with jump packs.

Also I'd drop the Indominatus Bolter's price significantly. Its not as good as the Plasma Pistol that it's priced the same as.

Like wise I would say change their Special Rule back to being the 5e version.

What are the Reaver Squads? I'm not familiar with HH units.

Do you think I should make the assault bolters a 5 point upgrade?

Reaver Squads are a hybridized squad similar to the Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans.

They can be outfitted with Bolters, Volkite (Short Ranged Guns with Assault), Power Weapons ect.

They can also get Jump Packs and have Precision Shot and Precision Strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3 points preferably.

 TranSpyre wrote:
Right now they are assault units, my point is that other units fit that role better. I think they should have a different role, that of harasser more than anything else.

...Other units are better at being assault units because Vanguard Vets are too expensive...

What I'm saying is, we have two units with assault in the name. The vanguard are supposed to prepare the battlefield by scouting and harassing the enemy before the main force arrives, not throw themselves in combat. So instead of optimizing them for a role already filled by other units, I'm trying to differentiate them a bit.

 TranSpyre wrote:
What I'm saying is, we have two units with assault in the name. The vanguard are supposed to prepare the battlefield by scouting and harassing the enemy before the main force arrives, not throw themselves in combat. So instead of optimizing them for a role already filled by other units, I'm trying to differentiate them a bit.

And turning them into a fast ranged harassment unit doesn't overlap with Bikes and Land Speeders how...?

They would be more reliable, if not useful if they had a reliable jump/charge range instead of the randomness that has been written in place of good rules design.

d6 rolls for everything important is stupid and oozes a lack of creativity on the designer's part.

Jump pack troopers and VV all could do with a fix-up.

I've only seen landspeeders with multimeltas or with scouts, and bikes cant JSJ. Bikes are either ablative wounds for a Chaptermaster, a zoning tool, or White Scars.

All are mobile, but each has distinct roles that they fill.