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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Vanguard Vets are Elite in the Vanilla codex. And Sternguards aren't totally worthless in terms of the Chapter Tactics, they are still Vets with two attacks and can take a Power Fist if you really want to smack something. And you are right, Combi weapons are so overpriced people ALWAYS field 6+ on a ten man Sternguard squad. Sternguard are one of the go to things in Elites in C:SM regardless of Chapter Tactics. Heck, if I wanted to play a fluffy unbound list, I would play Pedro Kantor and as many Sternguards in Drop Pods I could afford for the points.

You are joking of course....who in their right mind would ever intentionally throw sternguard into melee, or equip them for such? They are a shooting unit first and foremost and the chapter tactic does nothing for their primary role, shooting.

In the vanilla book no one uses Sternguard in competitive lists. You want special weapon spam, take troop bikers. You want a deep striking special weapon unit, try Legion of the Damned with a plasma gun, combi-weapon and multi-melta. Relentless ignores cover, deep striking death.

What exactly were you expecting on the Dreads? Yes, they need drop pods. It isn't like they have Scout or Infiltrate. Just like every other dread in the game. Why would BA be different in this respect?

"Just like every other dread in the game" is a curse, because every other dread in the game sucks. Outside of maybe a niche hellbrute dataslate or 2, and the forgeworld mortis dreads anyways. Taking after "normal" dreads is just terrible. I was hoping for SOMETHING that dug them out of the miserable hole they have languished in for the last decade, but the issue is more with the core vehicle and assault rules than any particular dreadnought. The old blender dread at least had a niche of being one of the best units in the game, in melee, point for point, for killing power armored guys, but that's gone too.

Sanguinary Guard are pretty good. Give one or two guys a fist and you have a fast moving Swiss army kill unit. Death Company can and likely will kill any unit they come in contact with if equipped properly.

Sang guard pale in comparison to DC, and that's enough to make sure no one uses them competitively. The problem isn't that they are bad really, it's that they are in a slot with literally 3 other jump pack melee units. DC, Vanguard, command squads and sang guard all compete against one another DIRECTLY. If 3 of them are melee, and one is shooting....well, there's too much overlap, and one of them is going to be rated as best and/or worst. DC are just better.

Command Squads are a good way to get three special weapons on the board and have FNP built right into the unit and are thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. Give em three plasma guns and go spam AP2 with fewer drawbacks.

The question is; Are command squads the BEST way to get 3 special weapons on the board? I need to get my hands on the book to make that call, but I'm guessing no. 5 command squad guys with 3 plasma guns is what? 170 points? Compare that to min/max grav spam bikers or ASM with double specials, and I don't think they will come out very well overall.

Tactical Terminator suck, just like in every other SM army, why would you expect any different? It isn't like BA are known for all of their Terminators. Assault Terminators with a few Storm Shields are pretty survivable and can lay some serious hurt down with their hammers.

I didn't really expect something different really, but GW has to realize, SOMEDAY, that terminators are gak, and get about fixing them. The Grey Knight terminator troop choice actually came out pretty good, chaos terminators are passable, but who in their right mind is willing to pay 7-8 points to upgrade a stormbolter/power weapon to stormbolter/powerfist or twin-lightning claws, or 12-13 points for TH/SS? They just don't understand terminators.

Some day, GW will take after forgeworld and we will have chapter specific terminator squads that don't suck. I was just hoping it would start here.

Again, Sternguards have just as many attacks as every other Vet. They are functional in CC. And their biggest draw is SI ammo, which is why their Combi bolters are a must. They are the best use of an elite slot for C:SM.

A three plasma Command Squad is 145, thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. And they can take JPs, C:SM can't. Name one other unit that can get FNP and x3 Plasmagun on the board for that price.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Again, Sternguards have just as many attacks as every other Vet. They are functional in CC. And their biggest draw is SI ammo, which is why their Combi bolters are a must. They are the best use of an elite slot for C:SM.

A three plasma Command Squad is 145, thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. And they can take JPs, C:SM can't. Name one other unit that can get FNP and x3 Plasmagun on the board for that price.

Yeah, but they are walking for 145 right? So you aren't getting anything unless you can deploy the weapons via JP, bike, drop pod or transport. They aren't 145, they are 170+. For 170, you should be able to stack up fairly easily.

Anyone saying sang guard are useless... Well, they haven't thought of the one counter they will be pretty good at, and by the looks of thing will be needed in the meta.

Yeah, they may still not deal with hordes amazingly (still think 10 of them, with a sang priest are going to murder most hordes into the ground, and if they don't in one turn, the 2+ save and feel no pain are going to make sure they are still there next turn to finish the job)

Anyway, the hard counter they will be perfect for.... Taking out Death company. Angelus bolters, and any inferno pistols, plus charging with increased initiative providing the formation is used, and striking at S5, with master crafted power swords (no point in the axes as they still get the FNP) and boom, Most of them death company are going to die in that turn.

Well, I remember a game 2v2 when I battled with my DoA army vs Nids and Eldar.
The SG really had a problem to shine since there were literally no Nids they were good against.
All four players agreed on this.

I can see some use for a SG against a Dev. or Havoc unit.
But otherwise. Hmm.

AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

Here are my initial thoughts on a core army:

2x 10 death company with jump packs and 2 hammers in each squad
2x 10 tacticals with heavy flamer, flamer, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and a drop pod
2x 5 assault squads with 2x melta, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and pods

That clocks in at about 1150 points, has 50 infantry of various sorts (20 with FNP) and decent anti-infantry or anti-tank to drop turn one depending on opponent. I think I'll go with a generic HQ to get a shot at master of ambush for the death company.

As an allied detachment, I'm strongly considering 3 assault centurions to go in a drop pod with a sanguinary priest to support this core. What do you guys think of that for a 3rd pod in the first wave?

Martel732 wrote:
AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

And not even just AP2, but sometimes just the volume of fire that some armies can put onto a unit. The more saves you have to roll, the more you will fail.

True, but the plan with SG is to move where you will get peppered the least. Terminators don't have that luxury, so they are most susceptible to the many turns of lasgun fire problem.

Now, I know it's easy saying it in theory, but depending on the opposition and terrain, I'd be quite confident about being about to get them into combat unscathed against some basic troops, where they will be safe from shooting, and most overwatch.

Disordered charges into multiple units, just to ensure they can't kill all their foe and be left in the open in one turn could be viable also.

I feel like the massive points reudction SG got still makes them viable, though not as much as DC of course. 165 points for 5 vets w/ 2+ armor, a JP, and a power sword is excellent. Throw in a PF and maybe an inferno pistol or two and you can handle most anything but hordes.

But yeah, really hope they get a good formation in the next Shield of Baal book.

Martel732 wrote:
AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

AP2 is fairly rare in close combat, though. They can slice up other MEQ squads with near impunity.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

AP2 is fairly rare in close combat, though. They can slice up other MEQ squads with near impunity.

I meant AP 2 shooting.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

And not even just AP2, but sometimes just the volume of fire that some armies can put onto a unit. The more saves you have to roll, the more you will fail.

The same is true for basically every unit in the game. Volume of fire is going to bring anything down as long as it can hit it. I have never understood this reasoning for why something is bad.

Because the SG are very expensive per wound. Gunning down tac marines with plasma is way less damaging than gunning down SG with plasma.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

And not even just AP2, but sometimes just the volume of fire that some armies can put onto a unit. The more saves you have to roll, the more you will fail.

The same is true for basically every unit in the game. Volume of fire is going to bring anything down as long as it can hit it. I have never understood this reasoning for why something is bad.

Volume is a problem when price per wound outpaces staying power.

33 points per wound and twice the staying power of a 14 point guy....

14x2 = 28....not 33.

You will kill more points by putting your AP4+ firepower into sang guard than you do into tactical marines. THAT is the problem, their staying power does not keep pace with cost. It's also why terminators largely suck. Not only are these units obscenely vulnerable to AP2, they are actually more vulnerable to small arms as well.

What about running strike force Baal formation with enhanced baal strike force. With mephiston + Dante dc in eletes for mephiston and the command squad for Dante. Tacs with pods in fast attack filled with Sister's of battle melta gun fluffy. Storm ravens in the heavy slots. Blood angels with sister allies for super fluffy army to go with the whole sheild of baal senerio.
Could even fill storm ravens with sisters as well carrying dc or frag dreads in support. Or repenta assaulting out of storm raven in hover.

 Carnage43 wrote:
The question is; Are command squads the BEST way to get 3 special weapons on the board? I need to get my hands on the book to make that call, but I'm guessing no. 5 command squad guys with 3 plasma guns is what? 170 points? Compare that to min/max grav spam bikers or ASM with double specials, and I don't think they will come out very well overall.

They are actually cheaper than 170, you'd be right if they all had JP's.
Another idea would be to take a Stormshield to have a 3+/3++/5+++ to make them more durable.
An ASM with combi-plasma is 'only' a Rhino cheaper, so I think both are a good option.

The problem is that you are paying a premium price for more CC-power, you probably don't want to waste that on Plasma guns.

Martel732 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.

AP2 is fairly rare in close combat, though. They can slice up other MEQ squads with near impunity.

I meant AP 2 shooting.

Does FNP from a Sanguinary Priest counter this AP2 shooting? Or is most (or all) of it going to instant death the SG in addition?

Further, can you put a jump pack on a Sanguinary Priest?

Yes, no, yes.
The dangerous shooting is stuff like Plasma and Graviton, which - due to its power against everything - sees too much play.
I don't think Sv2+ squads are really worth their points in this meta of AP2.

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, no, yes.
The dangerous shooting is stuff like Plasma and Graviton, which - due to its power against everything - sees too much play.
I don't think Sv2+ squads are really worth their points in this meta of AP2.

Thanks for the precise, if not expansive, response.

I hear you about Plasma and Graviton, but I don't play Space Marines much with my BA, and while I know other armies have rough equivalents, I don't agree that the presence of SOME weapons which slaughter 2+ armor makes SG impractical to run. Especially with a FNP bonus from a jump-pack equipped Priest. (I am pumped about that, too--I don't have one with a JP)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.

FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".

So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
For AA your options are Stormraven, Fortifications or just ignoring it (with a list like that, you should be far enough forward that many fliers will just overshoot you when they come on, so that is a legitimate option). You could also bring the Stormwing formation to get some Talons in, but that would be expensive. Depending on how far you're going with Scouts, I think an ADL with Quad could be a good option. Deploy it on the centre line, infiltrate your scouts on it, and T1 gain a 4+ cover for your jumpers as well!

HQ I'd take a pair of JP Libbies to run with the DC for Prescience or BA magic if you can afford them.

I am still concerned about anti-air weaponry. We didn't get a Talon, we don't have access to the Space Marine anti-air tanks. So...that leaves ineffective Devastators, terrain (ADL with Quad as above) or you have to run Stormraven(s) yes?

So, not thrilled about that. Scouts in a Stormraven is okay, I guess, and I like the idea of the fluffy DC dread and DC dropping out of the sky. Don't know that it will be terribly effective, but it'll draw attention away from SG...

PanzerLeader wrote:
Here are my initial thoughts on a core army:

2x 10 death company with jump packs and 2 hammers in each squad
2x 10 tacticals with heavy flamer, flamer, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and a drop pod
2x 5 assault squads with 2x melta, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and pods

That clocks in at about 1150 points, has 50 infantry of various sorts (20 with FNP) and decent anti-infantry or anti-tank to drop turn one depending on opponent. I think I'll go with a generic HQ to get a shot at master of ambush for the death company.

As an allied detachment, I'm strongly considering 3 assault centurions to go in a drop pod with a sanguinary priest to support this core. What do you guys think of that for a 3rd pod in the first wave?

Well, I'd prefer Rhinos as moving hills giving cover to the advancing jump packers.

I expect sanguinary guard to be bad if you try to use them as DC.
But as I see it, DC is a suicide unit that dont need a buffed HQ to lead them. Sang guard on the other hand could do better as a nice bodyguard to Dante or librarian.

Besides, even if it is not uncommon to see ap2 shooting, ap3 shooting is not that usual, so your enemy will most likely direct most of the heavy fire towards your blob of scary post-traumatical rage marines rather than the sang guard.

Not saying Sanguinary guard are best in show, but there is more to a unit than nuber of impact hits.

Edit: Remember there is lots more variety to what your army need to do with tactical objectives, rather than just anihilate a unit with first round of assault.

I used to have some blood angels and in light of the new book am thinking of getting a small force together. Looking forward to keeping track of this thread to see what the consensus is on what's worth while

While I doubt I'll get to play it for a while, here are my first thoughts on a list. It's not optimised/GT winning, but it plays to the army's strength and theme and I'd be confident taking it to most clubs and doing well.

+++ BA take 1 (1495pts) +++

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (Baal Strike Force Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Astorath, Redeemer of the Lost

Sanguinary Priest [Jump pack]

+ Elites +

Death Company Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 9x Chainsword, Power Fist]
····10x Death Company Marine [10x Jump Pack]

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [Flamer, Heavy flamer, Rhino, 9x Tactical Marine]
····Tactical Sergeant [Combi-Flamer]

Tactical Squad [Flamer, Heavy flamer, Rhino, 9x Tactical Marine]
····Tactical Sergeant [Combi-Flamer]

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [9x Assault Marines, Assault Sergeant, Jump Packs, 2x Meltagun]

Assault Squad [9x Assault Marines, Assault Sergeant, Jump Packs, 2x Meltagun]

+ Heavy Support +

Stormraven Gunship [Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)


I toyed with the idea of dropping the Assaults down to 5-man units in pods, but I think this way is more thematic and more versatile, giving them something to do beyond Suicide Drops. It would be easy to convert this to an all pod list and drop two pods T1, and remainder and DC turn 2, but I think for the moment Rhinos/JP just keep them a bit more mobile. Like I say, it's not meant to be amazing, but it proves the point that this codex can do as well as if not better than C:SM in list building.

Could you explain Astorath?
Maybe it's me, but I don't see the appeal of him.

Largely because he's one of my favourite minis, but the thinking was that he would be the best force multiplier the DC could get, allowing them to roll through anything even if they take some damage before combat.

That said, I may well replace him with a Reliced up Captain or Librarian further down the line, the DC should be able to handle most stuff on their own if they have to.

 Paradigm wrote:
Largely because he's one of my favourite minis, but the thinking was that he would be the best force multiplier the DC could get, allowing them to roll through anything even if they take some damage before combat.

That said, I may well replace him with a Reliced up Captain or Librarian further down the line, the DC should be able to handle most stuff on their own if they have to.

Well, I'm a bit worried about Wraithknights and Dreadknights.
My GK opponent usually fields two to three NDKs.

My fear is always that I buy him and that he ends up doing nothing.
I always calculate how the combat would have been without him and usually it's not a big difference.

My new favourite unit has to be Corbulo, he could even buff Devastators into a dedicated CC-squad.
Too bad he still lacks a way to gain JP.

Just a question: but as far as i can see there is no more limitation on DC, so you could basically have all DC units
with ASM being fast, and that means no more secure objective (and taht make using strike of baal detachment a viable option), why don't use DC squad in lieu of asm?
dc are more expensive, 23 point for a jumped one compared to 17 for asm
however, they get fnp "for free", so effectilvely 4 dc will survive like 6 asm; plus can use bolter and have same attack stats in close combat BUT shot one more time at 12", can be equipped with PW/PF and rage means they get +1 S while charging
and with strike of baal detachment you got plenty of elite slot to put inside 1 or 2 more dc squad (and maybe save a fast slot for bike or baal)

or i'm missing something?