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Hey guys, I've decided to get serious about airbrushing and chuck my old ebay special airbrushes for better units. So far I've gotten a single action Iwata HP-M1 with the .3 nozzle for primer and base coat applications etc. But I wanted a good double action with maybe a .2 nozzle for finer applications. I've been looking at Iwata and Badger in my price range, but the iwata in my range has a .35 tip and goes only up to a .5 and I'm worried that I'll need something smaller in the long run than the .35 nozzle. I was also looking at the badger renegade velocity jet with it's .21 nozzle but it seems to be sold out everywhere and read some reviews that weren't glowing and also that it's rather finicky about the paint going into it. I've read a good bit about grex but it's been mostly for their pistol grip guns but this new one they have has really peaked my interest. The GXi looks like a decent brush but I'm worried about quality etc since I've never been around one. Though it is nice that you can get a .2, .3, and up nozzles/needles for the gun and everything is interchangeable.

So if you have any experience with Grex as a brand or this specific unit, please drop on in and give me a shout and give me your experiences please.

thanks!

no experience with those brush and i dont find any serious reviews.
i rdcommend badger sotar 2020f or hs evolution silverline.

Don't bother about the long run.


An Iwata HP-CS will take you years to master anyway, you'll want another airbrush before you need one.

I wouldn't ever buy Grex, mostly because it has less than one percent of the credibility of the iwata, H&S and Badger, which I would rate in that order from all I've read on the topic.

Much better deal.

http://www.amazon.com/Badger-Air-Brush-2020-2F-Gravity-Airbrush/dp/B000BROVIO

I have not tried a gxi, but I have bought a tritium, and returned it as I felt that Iwata's were more to my liking. At the high end, airbrush preference is a deeply personal thing, I think. One really cool feature of the tritium is that the crown is magnetic.

A great feature, too, is the ability to choose different needle sizes; on an Iwata, the airbrush is pretty much married with the needle size. Not exactly, but the parts are really expensive, and BH parts aren't designed to go into a CS .

I don't think it's fair to compare badger or paasche to Iwata oe Grex, as they are in a different performance class.

winterwind85 wrote:no experience with those brush and i dont find any serious reviews.
i rdcommend badger sotar 2020f or hs evolution silverline.

Barksdale wrote:Much better deal.

http://www.amazon.com/Badger-Air-Brush-2020-2F-Gravity-Airbrush/dp/B000BROVIO

Okay you guys, what is so special about the sotar 2020f? also it didn't say what the nozzle size etc was for that brush. btw I really like badger stuff but I can't stand that I can't find nozzle size info etc on any of them really.

Talys wrote:I have not tried a gxi, but I have bought a tritium, and returned it as I felt that Iwata's were more to my liking. At the high end, airbrush preference is a deeply personal thing, I think. One really cool feature of the tritium is that the crown is magnetic.

A great feature, too, is the ability to choose different needle sizes; on an Iwata, the airbrush is pretty much married with the needle size. Not exactly, but the parts are really expensive, and BH parts aren't designed to go into a CS .

I don't think it's fair to compare badger or paasche to Iwata oe Grex, as they are in a different performance class.

so what performance class would the grex fit into? I don't doubt it's personal but there isn't a place I can get my hands on and try these airbrushes without buying them first you know.

morgoth wrote:Don't bother about the long run.


An Iwata HP-CS will take you years to master anyway, you'll want another airbrush before you need one.

I wouldn't ever buy Grex, mostly because it has less than one percent of the credibility of the iwata, H&S and Badger, which I would rate in that order from all I've read on the topic.

Yeah I figure they wouldn't have the crerd that iwata, hs, and badger have... though how long have they been around? the reviews and people talk about the pistol grip ones like they love them. But it seems this brush is rather new and not enough revies about it yet.

My painting studio uses grex tritium TG's on a day to day basis. Grex may not have a tremendous amount of credibility but from what we have been using for the last few years is grex makes a great product, but it definitely takes a little work to get used to.

 Miniature Base Coating wrote:
My painting studio uses grex tritium TG's on a day to day basis. Grex may not have a tremendous amount of credibility but from what we have been using for the last few years is grex makes a great product, but it definitely takes a little work to get used to.

what takes work to get use to? Is there some trick that makes them different?

tg has a pistol grip.

Badger makes an inferior product to iwata and grex. I have 3 badgers one iwata and one grex. Two of my badgers leak from the nozzle hold down ring. They are the krome and the sotar. I think it has something to do with the design. When I put in airbrush cleaner you can clearly see bubbles and foam coming out from that part.

I've owned 2 badger quick disconnects and they are bad. They leak like no other.

I had a badger TC 910 compressor, leaked, new from the box.

I just got a grex tritrium.ts3 and its a great piece of hardware. I can do almost everything with it I can do with my smaller gravity feeds.

Tyronus Fruitridge Powers wrote:


Badger makes an inferior product to iwata and grex. I have 3 badgers one iwata and one grex. Two of my badgers leak from the nozzle hold down ring. They are the krome and the sotar. I think it has something to do with the design. When I put in airbrush cleaner you can clearly see bubbles and foam coming out from that part.

I've used Badger airbrushes for years, with the Sotar being my workhorse, and I have never experienced that problem.

While I predomantily use Badger airbrushes, I'm no fanboy by and stretch. I think Iwata brushes are great, but you pay for the name, which is important to a lot of people. Personally, I think H&S makes a superior product to Iwata and Badger (and just about everyone else for that matter).

MitchellTyner wrote:
so what performance class would the grex fit into? I don't doubt it's personal but there isn't a place I can get my hands on and try these airbrushes without buying them first you know.

The Grex Tritium that I bought (which should have similar internals, but is trigger style instead of pen) was annoying because the pistol grip mechanism, which looked great on paper, was just weird in actual practice. I felt like I had less control, and it's not like I get a mid-range airbrush to be a spray gun.

In all other respects, it was a wonderful tool, with precision machining and such. It was easy to clean (the screw-off cup was great), too. I can't tell you about the trigger of the XGi, because that's a normal trigger, whereas the Tritium is the pistol grip. It was definitely a cut above paasche/badger, and the type of quality of an Iwata.

Still, what makes Iwatas special, in my mind, is the trigger. It's butter smooth, and almost magical.

MitchellTyner wrote:

morgoth wrote:Don't bother about the long run.

An Iwata HP-CS will take you years to master anyway, you'll want another airbrush before you need one.

I wouldn't ever buy Grex, mostly because it has less than one percent of the credibility of the iwata, H&S and Badger, which I would rate in that order from all I've read on the topic.

Yeah I figure they wouldn't have the crerd that iwata, hs, and badger have... though how long have they been around? the reviews and people talk about the pistol grip ones like they love them. But it seems this brush is rather new and not enough revies about it yet.

Hmmmm.... Hang on here.

I have an Iwata HP-CS, which is a super duper airbrush. It's a wonderful workhorse, because it's easy to clean and being 0.35mm, it is forgiving with non-airbrush paints that you add some thinner to.

HOWEVER -- The Iwata HP C+ is about the same price -- even cheaper, sometimes -- and is superior in every way except cleaning (don't get me wrong; cleaning is a big deal). The HP C+ uses a 0.30mm needle, which is very slightly smaller, and importantly, for newer airbrushers, there is a preset handle. The preset handle limits how far back you are able to pull the trigger, which is very useful until you're more experienced, because there's a tendency to pull too hard on the trigger. It is extremely expensive as a separate part (it's also interchangeable between the C+ and CS). Don't buy the triple action one by a third party -- it's flimsy as all hell, and prevents you from pulling the needle forward.

The atomization of paint between the two looks a little different too, because the pattern for the air coming out is different.

Now, about that cleaning.

When the HP-CS disassembles, the head looks more like a paasche/badger, in that there is a piece that looks like the top of a mechanical pencil; it's relatively large (half-inch?). What's really nice is that on the CS, it is just held in place by the outer assembly, so you don't have any screws or wrenches to contend with. It is *amazingly* easy to clean.

With the HP-C+ (and BH, AH, etc.) the head under the hand-tightened outer assembly is *tiny*. You use a fine wrench to take it off, after which you can slide the needle forward. The problem is that the head is so small that you're always afraid that you'll lose it, plus it's not very easy to clean because it's so fine. Once you take it off, the shaft is simple to clean.

On a different note, I don't really agree that it's "years" before you can benefit from another airbrush. The atomization between 0.2 and 0.3 needles, and between the Eclipse and Hi-Line (or whatever they call the next series, before Custom Micron) is different, so the results look different, even if you aren't trying to do super duper details. It's not necessary, but it's not a bad thing either.

Also, if you airbrush more than primer, it is really helpful to have multiple airbrushes anyhow. Otherwise, you have to clean out the paint to use another color. If I'm airbrushing, I might use light blue, use another airbrush with dark blue, and go back to the light blue. If you keep your layers thin, they dry pretty quickly.

Quick disconnect is also your friend

MitchellTyner wrote:

Barksdale wrote:Much better deal.

http://www.amazon.com/Badger-Air-Brush-2020-2F-Gravity-Airbrush/dp/B000BROVIO

Okay you guys, what is so special about the sotar 2020f? also it didn't say what the nozzle size etc was for that brush. btw I really like badger stuff but I can't stand that I can't find nozzle size info etc on any of them really.

That one comes with two extra fine needles which are .2mm but it will do anything you want. Big flat areas or small fine detail.

Okay so I guess here are my options really and what i'm looking at cash wise.

Iwata HP-B+ sitting around 200 bucks. Ouch, but my single action Iwata I have is so nice. I know quality when I see it. but the B+ is a .2 while the C+ is a .3

Badger Sotar with it's.2 needle/nozzle (I guess lol) for around 100 bucks.

Grex XGi with it's .2, .3, .4 whatever I want really for around 170 bucks.

So what you guys are saying is that Grex has around the same quality as the Iwata? I like that badger is made in ol usa so I am sure to be able to find parts at least. I like the Iwata but I was hoping that 170 was the top of my spending range.

I think I'm honestly leaning to the Sotar. I mean I've been looking a little more at it and it seems I can get a medium and large size conversion kit for it. Medium being like a .4 I think. So If I needed to use it for something else I guess I could. So I wouldn't be stuck at a .2 like the Iwata. But for around 100 bucks that isn't bad. I'm just a big fan of the iwata quality.

Being real here... how does the badger quality stack against Iwata? Like would it be worth the extra 100 to get the iwata over the badger one?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyronus Fruitridge Powers wrote:
tg has a pistol grip.

Badger makes an inferior product to iwata and grex. I have 3 badgers one iwata and one grex. Two of my badgers leak from the nozzle hold down ring. They are the krome and the sotar. I think it has something to do with the design. When I put in airbrush cleaner you can clearly see bubbles and foam coming out from that part.

I was reading that it's a good idea on all airbrushes to put a little chap stick on the threads to help seal them well. I've seen people use the sealing tape like plumbers etc use but that's too thick in my opinion. From what i've been reading on badger though the customer support is amazing so you could call and see what they can do.

I wanted to chime in and say that Hobby Lobby in the US carries the Iwata HP-CS and you can use their 40% off coupon on it. I got mine last week for only $140 including sales tax because of the coupon - it was even cheaper than buying it online.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I think Iwata brushes are great, but you pay for the name, which is important to a lot of people. Personally, I think H&S makes a superior product to Iwata and Badger (and just about everyone else for that matter).

More so than a lot of people realize. If you were to go to Japan and ask the same question...the answer wouldn't be Iwata - it would be RichPen or Olympos. Iwata just has better marketing (I don't even think Olympos has an English website...at least they didn't the last time I needed to order a seal kit - granted since the Iwata flagship brush is a knockoff of the Olympos design...many of the parts are interchangeable).

I would say that H&S is probably the best engineered brush in production right now - but having tried several over the years...it just doesn't fit well in my hand and the action feels a bit, odd. I have a Evolution and had an Infinity for awhile that I have since lent out. I just finished rebuilding a poorly treated Ultra that will be going back out soon too. They are great brushes...just, not for me.

I prefer the feel of my Sotar the most. Part of that probably goes to having used it the longest of my internal mix brushes.

My Grex TG Tritium is a newish favorite (have had it for a few years now I guess). The trigger grip makes details a bit awkward, but it can spray a very fine line if I tried to. The thing is though - I don't want it to spray details. I use that for after my external mix base coats - before my internal mix pen style details. Large cup holds all the paint I need for painting as many figures as I want (often assembly line style painting 50-60 figures and related vehicles). Does everything I ask it to when it comes to terrain. Although they are somewhat new to the airbrush market - all of the Grex brushes I have dealt with have been excellent (so far my Tritium and one Genesis XN I used for about a month).

In the end though - airbrushes are a good bit like computers. You have Wintel machines, Nix boxes and iStuff... They all have their strengths and weaknesses. There isn't one best. However, there are a lot of people who will swear up and down that the camp they are in is the best. Largely though - if you purchase a first world airbrush - Iwata, Badger (to Include T&C), H&S, Grex, Paasche, Olympos, RichPen, Asturo, DeVilbiss, GSI Creos...heck, I even know a couple of people who swear by their Azteks - you will get a good brush. Now, just because it is a good brush, doesn't mean it is good for you or what you are doing with it, otherwise there would be one company and these threads wouldn't come up. With first world brushes - if you have any issues, the manufacturers will stand behind their products (Badger for example has life time warranties on all their brushes - if you get bubbles, don't use chapstick - call Badger).

Also...ignore 99% of what you see about needle/nozzle sizes. Most hobby paints are best suited for being sprayed out of a 0.3 or larger nozzle. Anything smaller than that ends up being a bit like trying to drink a milk shake through one of those little coffee stirrer straws. Yes, you can use smaller setups - but generally when people do that they end up having to crank the pressure up too high to get any reasonable amount of paint to flow and that prevents you from being able to do any significant detail painting anyway. Small needles are best suited for inks and thinned gloss paints, enamels and lacquers. Low pressure, right up on top of your work with mediums thinned past water thin.

beir wrote:I wanted to chime in and say that Hobby Lobby in the US carries the Iwata HP-CS and you can use their 40% off coupon on it. I got mine last week for only $140 including sales tax because of the coupon - it was even cheaper than buying it online.

Yeah I looked into that. I just passed over it because of the .35 needle. My single action iwata has a finer nozzle.

Sean_OBrien wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I think Iwata brushes are great, but you pay for the name, which is important to a lot of people. Personally, I think H&S makes a superior product to Iwata and Badger (and just about everyone else for that matter).

More so than a lot of people realize. If you were to go to Japan and ask the same question...the answer wouldn't be Iwata - it would be RichPen or Olympos. Iwata just has better marketing (I don't even think Olympos has an English website...at least they didn't the last time I needed to order a seal kit - granted since the Iwata flagship brush is a knockoff of the Olympos design...many of the parts are interchangeable).

I would say that H&S is probably the best engineered brush in production right now - but having tried several over the years...it just doesn't fit well in my hand and the action feels a bit, odd. I have a Evolution and had an Infinity for awhile that I have since lent out. I just finished rebuilding a poorly treated Ultra that will be going back out soon too. They are great brushes...just, not for me.

I prefer the feel of my Sotar the most. Part of that probably goes to having used it the longest of my internal mix brushes.

My Grex TG Tritium is a newish favorite (have had it for a few years now I guess). The trigger grip makes details a bit awkward, but it can spray a very fine line if I tried to. The thing is though - I don't want it to spray details. I use that for after my external mix base coats - before my internal mix pen style details. Large cup holds all the paint I need for painting as many figures as I want (often assembly line style painting 50-60 figures and related vehicles). Does everything I ask it to when it comes to terrain. Although they are somewhat new to the airbrush market - all of the Grex brushes I have dealt with have been excellent (so far my Tritium and one Genesis XN I used for about a month).

In the end though - airbrushes are a good bit like computers. You have Wintel machines, Nix boxes and iStuff... They all have their strengths and weaknesses. There isn't one best. However, there are a lot of people who will swear up and down that the camp they are in is the best. Largely though - if you purchase a first world airbrush - Iwata, Badger (to Include T&C), H&S, Grex, Paasche, Olympos, RichPen, Asturo, DeVilbiss, GSI Creos...heck, I even know a couple of people who swear by their Azteks - you will get a good brush. Now, just because it is a good brush, doesn't mean it is good for you or what you are doing with it, otherwise there would be one company and these threads wouldn't come up. With first world brushes - if you have any issues, the manufacturers will stand behind their products (Badger for example has life time warranties on all their brushes - if you get bubbles, don't use chapstick - call Badger).

Also...ignore 99% of what you see about needle/nozzle sizes. Most hobby paints are best suited for being sprayed out of a 0.3 or larger nozzle. Anything smaller than that ends up being a bit like trying to drink a milk shake through one of those little coffee stirrer straws. Yes, you can use smaller setups - but generally when people do that they end up having to crank the pressure up too high to get any reasonable amount of paint to flow and that prevents you from being able to do any significant detail painting anyway. Small needles are best suited for inks and thinned gloss paints, enamels and lacquers. Low pressure, right up on top of your work with mediums thinned past water thin.

So what you are saying is that I wouldn't be able to spray well thinned with airbrush medium vallejo game colors etc in the .2 nozzle guns? I just want to get nice fine lines when I do pre shading on my minis so I don't have to do washes etc to get the shade down. Like following armor lines with black before I put down the light base coat to cover it etc.

BTW the more I read/hear about badger and the more I see how they stand behind their product with customer service etc I think I'm leaning toward them. I just hope they have that buttery smooth trigger like the iwata does. I think I'm leaning toward the sotar.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Also...ignore 99% of what you see about needle/nozzle sizes. Most hobby paints are best suited for being sprayed out of a 0.3 or larger nozzle. Anything smaller than that ends up being a bit like trying to drink a milk shake through one of those little coffee stirrer straws. Yes, you can use smaller setups - but generally when people do that they end up having to crank the pressure up too high to get any reasonable amount of paint to flow and that prevents you from being able to do any significant detail painting anyway. Small needles are best suited for inks and thinned gloss paints, enamels and lacquers. Low pressure, right up on top of your work with mediums thinned past water thin.

I totally agree with making your first/learning airbrush 0.3mm+. When I first purchased a 0.25mm needle and 0.20mm needle for my Paasche, I thought my damn airbrush was broken (mind you, the Iwata 0.20mm seems more forgiving). You spend so much more time clearing the tip and thinning paints than just using one of the larger needles.

Plus, I don't think most people realize how hard it is to paint fine lines with an airbrush, relative to a paintbrush. 99.9% of the time, it's much easier on a miniature that's only 1 inch tall by half inch wide to paint a fine detail with a brush, for instance, anything from an edge highlight to eyes to purity scroll scribbles to or freehand writing.

Also, 99.9% of the time, with wargaming miniatures, it's easier to mask than it is to try to paint small spots freehand and not get spray on nearby areas. Once you mask it, the needle size doesn't matter (much) anymore.

I disagree with assertions that smaller than 0.3mm are not that useful, though. It's no different than a paintbrush: there are uses for 00, 3/0, 6/0 and smaller brushes, depending on what you want to paint, and how much time you're spending per miniature. Some people think edge highlights are a waste of time; other people wet blend every edge. Same with visors and eyes, lettering, and so forth. Sure, if I were only permitted 1 paintbrush, I'd select a size 1 (and I would take a HP-CS if I were only allowed 1 airbrush). But, if I had a choice, I'd own every size that could serve a purpose.

Also, the atomization between the different airbrushes and needles can be noticeably different, and in different cases, one may suit your look better than another. Plus, with a 0.3mm, you need to go very close to the target if you want many gradients that are not far apart (for instance, NMM on a short sword). With a 0.2mm, you can have the needle a little further away from the object. I find that this is slightly easier to control, again, specifically for gradients in NMM and OSL effects.

Please don't judge an airbrush just by its needle size. A 0.2mm Iwata BH and a 0.2mm Paasche Talon are totally different beasts, as are 0.3mm CH on the 0.3mm Talon. The needle sizes are more helpful, within the same manufacturer and airbrush series. So, it's best to compare a 0.3mm and 0.2mm within the same airbrush.

Finally -- the Iwata Eclipse (HP-CS) has a different body/needle configuration than the Hi-Line series, which share common parts. What I mean is, you can take a 0.2 or 0.3 needle and tip, and put it into a C+, B+, A+, CH, BH, or AH, so if you buy a C+, you can buy a 0.20mm needle and tip and swap them in. But you can't put a 0.35 or 0.5mm tip/needle into any of those. The tips are actually TOTALLY different.

Interestingly, the back ends are the same, so you can take a preset handle from a C+ and use it on a CS.

Talys wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Also...ignore 99% of what you see about needle/nozzle sizes. Most hobby paints are best suited for being sprayed out of a 0.3 or larger nozzle. Anything smaller than that ends up being a bit like trying to drink a milk shake through one of those little coffee stirrer straws. Yes, you can use smaller setups - but generally when people do that they end up having to crank the pressure up too high to get any reasonable amount of paint to flow and that prevents you from being able to do any significant detail painting anyway. Small needles are best suited for inks and thinned gloss paints, enamels and lacquers. Low pressure, right up on top of your work with mediums thinned past water thin.

I totally agree with making your first/learning airbrush 0.3mm+. When I first purchased a 0.25mm needle and 0.20mm needle for my Paasche, I thought my damn airbrush was broken (mind you, the Iwata 0.20mm seems more forgiving). You spend so much more time clearing the tip and thinning paints than just using one of the larger needles.

So you didn't have as much problem with tip dry, thinning on the .2 iwata?

beir wrote:
I wanted to chime in and say that Hobby Lobby in the US carries the Iwata HP-CS and you can use their 40% off coupon on it. I got mine last week for only $140 including sales tax because of the coupon - it was even cheaper than buying it online.

No it's not.

Online I paid €100 which is slightly less.

Now you know how much of a bad joke those -40% coupons really are.

Talys wrote:
I disagree with assertions that smaller than 0.3mm are not that useful, though. It's no different than a paintbrush: there are uses for 00, 3/0, 6/0 and smaller brushes, depending on what you want to paint, and how much time you're spending per miniature.

You bypassed the point of the issue...

It isn't that the smaller ones are useful at all (they are - when used correctly). However, you can see one of the reasons above well enough. The OP passed over an HP-CS because it has a 0.35 needle. His single action has a finer needle...

Not sure which brush he is referring to - but I guarantee it isn't something that you can make a fair comparison with. In some ways it is like regular paintbrushes. Sure, there are uses for a 0, 000 and even 10/0 brushes. However, the reality is that a high quality 0 W&N Series 7 allows for finer detailing and control than a 5/0 cheap brush. The quality makes a bigger difference than the brush size. The same holds true with airbrushes. While a $30 Chinese knockoff might look a bit like a $200 Iwata - they are worlds apart. The machining is more precise which introduces less turbulence in the airstream at the tip, smoother control on the trigger and better fits between parts. These add up to allow very fine lines to be sprayed - much more so than you might be able to spray using something like a 0.2 Chinabuilt brush.

The other of course, you touched on a bit. Hobby paints are generally formulated to be flat. The matting agents are generally relatively large. They will tend to clog more and cause other issues in a small needle brush set up. If you take two otherwise identical paints - one flat, one gloss and spray them from the exact same brush - the flat paint will need 25-50% more pressure to achieve the same spray pattern. More pressure makes for less control (and when doing fine detail work - can cause you to blow your paint all around your figure as opposed to making nice eyebrow arcs...). The gloss will also clog less and have fewer tip dry issues.

The final one, is a bit unfair - but true. No matter how hard some people practice, train and work at it - the reality is that many people will never be able to actually use anything below a 0.3 needle. By use, I don't mean pull the trigger and spray something...I mean actually get the full capacity out of the brush. Practice helps - but some people just don't have the physical capacity to work at that fine of level.

I won't pretend to have even a shred of the depth or breadth of airbrush experience that some of the previous commenters have, but I do have direct experience buying a Sotar. I got the fine (.20mm) kit with two needles (important, as those are the most fragile and the most expensive parts you're likely to ever need to replace) off of Amazon and paid a whopping $60.

If you aren't in a hurry, shop around and watch for fluctuating prices. I've never seen an airbrush go for more on Amazon than it would cost at a craft store with even a 50% coupon (assuming they even carry what you want - my Michaels has always had a few Badgers, but only recently started carrying Aztecs and Neos), but I have seen prices swing up and down by a significant margin. The MSRP is higher, IIRC, but Sotars frequently cost less than Patriots, when it's time to actually pay. Last time I checked, that Sotar kit was going for $80.

@Sean --

I don't disagree with anything you say, really. I've tried to suggest that an HP-CS, or another 0.3+mm would probably be the best all-around airbrush for the OP. I just think that a sub 0.3mm needle is a good tool (like a fine paintbrush), especially if you can just buy the needle and tip.

For example, on the Passche Talon, you can get the 3 standard needle sizes from 0.25 to 0.55 (approximately), and the airbrush, and decent hose, for a little over $100. And, you can add a 0.2mm for another $20. So, why not? Even if you don't use it a lot, it's handy.

I think it's a terrible idea to try to learn the basics on the 0.2mm because you spend too much time on mechanics rather than creativity, but if you really put your mind to it (ie, spend time practicing on a canvas), a couple of weeks will get you through the learning curve of an airbrush.

I agree that some people just won't ever have the physical ability or aptitude to handle an fine airbrush (or paintbrush), but I don't think this is most people. On the other hand, I do believe that the majority *gamers* don't have the patience to make such a tool worthwhile. I can spend 20 or 30 hours on a single 28mm miniature and not be bothered by it at all; many gamers want to paint their entire army in that time.

All that being said, the OP seems pretty intent on owning a 0.2mm brush.

@oadie -- yeah, prices on airbrushes seem to fluctuate a lot online at places like Amazon. Sellers just disappear the brushes for a while, and then they come back. Also, we are *very* close to boxing week. There are some really good deals at hobby shops during boxing week =)

Sean_OBrien wrote:

It isn't that the smaller ones are useful at all (they are - when used correctly). However, you can see one of the reasons above well enough. The OP passed over an HP-CS because it has a 0.35 needle. His single action has a finer needle...

Not sure which brush he is referring to - but I guarantee it isn't something that you can make a fair comparison with. In some ways it is like regular paintbrushes. Sure, there are uses for a 0, 000 and even 10/0 brushes. However, the reality is that a high quality 0 W&N Series 7 allows for finer detailing and control than a 5/0 cheap brush. The quality makes a bigger difference than the brush size. The same holds true with airbrushes. While a $30 Chinese knockoff might look a bit like a $200 Iwata - they are worlds apart. The machining is more precise which introduces less turbulence in the airstream at the tip, smoother control on the trigger and better fits between parts. These add up to allow very fine lines to be sprayed - much more so than you might be able to spray using something like a 0.2 Chinabuilt brush.

The other of course, you touched on a bit. Hobby paints are generally formulated to be flat. The matting agents are generally relatively large. They will tend to clog more and cause other issues in a small needle brush set up. If you take two otherwise identical paints - one flat, one gloss and spray them from the exact same brush - the flat paint will need 25-50% more pressure to achieve the same spray pattern. More pressure makes for less control (and when doing fine detail work - can cause you to blow your paint all around your figure as opposed to making nice eyebrow arcs...). The gloss will also clog less and have fewer tip dry issues.

My single action is an Iwata HP-M1, it has a .3 in it. It's a damn fine airbrush for primer and base coating. I'm interested in a double action to do the detail bits of the painting on the mini where I can control the flow without having to twist the knob. I'm not sure if you were trying to belittle me on the fact that I have a single action, or insinuate that it's a china brush. Regardless it was my first costly airbrush purchase, I have two double action cheapo brushes that are simply trash and I'm wanted a reliable and well built brush. That's when I picked up the Iwata. It has made all the difference over the cheap masters brushes I have/had and I have decided to step up into a "real" airbrush that is workable and capable as my original post stated.

Now I'm not saying I will take nothing less than a .2 nozzle brush, but I figure that if I'm going to be doing finer detail work then why not go with a higher precision brush to start with. I probably would take a .3 nozzle double action with no complaints if it was able to do great detail work at lower psi.

Here is the thing though, I've never had a .2 brush. So I'm not aware of what will and will not flow though it. If you are saying that I will have problems flowing matte vallejo game colors, model colors, and the air lines though it then I might have to step back up to a .3 because that is the majority of the paints I work with.

I also like the eclipse hp-cs but I'm skeptical about the .35 nozzle being able to do fine enough detail work for my taste. Though I might decide to go with one as I can get it locally for cheaper than I can find it online. And from what I've seen and read that the .35 nozzles for the eclipse pretty much locks me into using just that nozzle and needle along with the .5 where the others I can swap them around some if I had too.

Talys wrote:@Sean --

I don't disagree with anything you say, really. I've tried to suggest that an HP-CS, or another 0.3+mm would probably be the best all-around airbrush for the OP. I just think that a sub 0.3mm needle is a good tool (like a fine paintbrush), especially if you can just buy the needle and tip.

I think it's a terrible idea to try to learn the basics on the 0.2mm because you spend too much time on mechanics rather than creativity, but if you really put your mind to it (ie, spend time practicing on a canvas), a couple of weeks will get you through the learning curve of an airbrush.

All that being said, the OP seems pretty intent on owning a 0.2mm brush.

I actually like the hp-cs, but I figure if I'm going to get an iwata why not go with the hp-c+ or the hp-b+? They are slightly more but seem to be a better brush. I was also looking at the grex for the ability to swap the stuff around and using either the .2 or the .3 Main reason for the original post was about this gun, because as stated above I'm not sure if I'll even like the .2 on the double action brush. Then if not I could stick the .3 in there and rock and roll.

Also, I'm pretty decent at working with the brushes now. The el-cheapo brushes I was using just suck and hardly got any service out of them but they still worked and I learned the basics of airbrushing on them. So i'd say I'm a little over a beginner, maybe a novice or something like that. I'm just ready for a decent investment in improving my tools and hopefully my work.

Honestly for the .2mm argument, I don't mind getting a .3mm at all, I just figured that if the .2 will shoot the color fine, and not just be a complete turd then I wouldn't mind having a .2 but if I find a decent .3 then I'm game to use that because I'm sure I can get finer lines out of it than my single action.


By the way guys, thank's for the replies and the suggestions. Keep them coming!

In no way was it belittling, simply that there is a whole mess of variables that make it impossible to compare...even more so when the person is asking for advice on what to purchase. Most hobby painters don't have a full grasp of everything in play (heck, a lot of professionals don't either for that matter).

I actually have an M2. Great little brush, slightly larger needle than the M1 - but for me, the more important part is the larger cup. I use it for doing street markings and the like on terrain - I want all the coats to be consistent, so the single action is superior to a double action brush. I can even go back a month from now and paint the exact same thing just by dialing in my settings again.

One thing to sort of keep in mind, is that for probably 90% of the people who post looking for an airbrush, the best airbrush for them will be a Badger 350 (or similar external mix, single action brush - maybe a Paasche if they want some metal in it). Basecoat, primer, clear coats... One of the things I do on the side is rehab airbrushes - and I have a steady supply of them coming in from people who couldn't be bothered to properly keep them up (many of them end up on eBay...but before they can try to get their money back, they need a working brush). Others that show up are people who lack the fine motor skills needed to actually use the brush (so they are convinced it is defective). As a result, I normally am hesitant to recommend - even to someone who is really enthusiastic about it - getting a high end brush. Don't get me wrong, I love playing with all sorts of airbrushes...but there are other things that can give more bang for the buck.

And...it isn't fair to compare the double action 0.3 to a single action 0.3. For example, using my M2 (larger orifice than your M1) I find I need around 25 PSI to get something like VMA paints to start to flow, with any setting on the paint control know less than 2. I can actually paint finer lines with my T&C Vega that has a 0.76 nozzle. Even with the siphon feed, I need less pressure than the M2 to spray the same paints.

Here is the thing though, I've never had a .2 brush. So I'm not aware of what will and will not flow though it. If you are saying that I will have problems flowing matte vallejo game colors, model colors, and the air lines though it then I might have to step back up to a .3 because that is the majority of the paints I work with.

No doubt you will hear other words from other people - but in my experience, no - VMA won't even go through a .2 brush without causing problems. VGA are right out. You probably could thin them down enough, and crank the pressure up high enough to get something to come out - but in doing so, you loose the control that is sought by using a .2 brush. A lot of people seem content though spraying at 20 PSI and up, I like my pressures for detail painting to be done in the 10-15 PSI range, with fine details even lower than that.

One thing I do hear often from those who do use them is the clogging/tip dry issues. I very, very rarely have a clogging issue - and normally it is when I do something I know I shouldn't do (try spraying large flake craft paints), and tip dry does happen - but I might have it happen once or twice a day, when I am painting almost 8 hours. Many of the people who are using those paints though are having to clear their brush tips every 20 to 30 minutes... Usually when I do get it - it is because I did something I know better than to do (like have lunch and forget to clear the brush before hand...).

For fine detailing I use Tamiya, Gunze, inks, enamels and lacquers - almost always gloss...though some of the Tamiya and enamels are flat. Those tiny needles were not designed with painters in mind - they were designed for illustrators. People who will be using ink, ink and nothing but ink. You can get away with paints that you can thin down to ink like consistency...but otherwise, you will end up fighting against your tools as opposed to using them.

Given enough pressure - you can put pretty much anything through an airbrush...but that really isn't the goal.

I should also note - that there appears to be a little propaganda (or at least something lost in the translation) with the VMA flyer from Vallejo. They are demonstrating use of the paint using an H&S Evolution with a 0.2 needle...something that I have. They are thinning the VMA at 3 drops of paint to 1 drop of thinner (though they insist you don't need to). In order to get that to spray through that brush, I need to use 27 PSI. In order to get it to spray at under 20 PSI, I normally thin at 2 drops paint to 3 drops thinner or more.

Nothing against the paints - just, they are not for the super fine brushes, nor are the super fine brushes for them.

MitchellTyner wrote:

My single action is an Iwata HP-M1,

I didn't know Iwata made a single action brush. I just looked for the HP-M1 and it looks a lot like my Grex XA, which I like quite a bit.

But anyway, it's probably not worth it to you, but if you really wanted to, you could drive over to Hobbytown in Spring Lake. The owner uses and XGi and he might let you try it out. He's got one for sale in the case too.

Sean_OBrien wrote:In no way was it belittling, simply that there is a whole mess of variables that make it impossible to compare...even more so when the person is asking for advice on what to purchase. Most hobby painters don't have a full grasp of everything in play (heck, a lot of professionals don't either for that matter).

I actually have an M2. Great little brush, slightly larger needle than the M1 - but for me, the more important part is the larger cup. I use it for doing street markings and the like on terrain - I want all the coats to be consistent, so the single action is superior to a double action brush. I can even go back a month from now and paint the exact same thing just by dialing in my settings again.

One thing to sort of keep in mind, is that for probably 90% of the people who post looking for an airbrush, the best airbrush for them will be a Badger 350 (or similar external mix, single action brush - maybe a Paasche if they want some metal in it). Basecoat, primer, clear coats... One of the things I do on the side is rehab airbrushes - and I have a steady supply of them coming in from people who couldn't be bothered to properly keep them up (many of them end up on eBay...but before they can try to get their money back, they need a working brush). Others that show up are people who lack the fine motor skills needed to actually use the brush (so they are convinced it is defective). As a result, I normally am hesitant to recommend - even to someone who is really enthusiastic about it - getting a high end brush. Don't get me wrong, I love playing with all sorts of airbrushes...but there are other things that can give more bang for the buck.

And...it isn't fair to compare the double action 0.3 to a single action 0.3. For example, using my M2 (larger orifice than your M1) I find I need around 25 PSI to get something like VMA paints to start to flow, with any setting on the paint control know less than 2. I can actually paint finer lines with my T&C Vega that has a 0.76 nozzle. Even with the siphon feed, I need less pressure than the M2 to spray the same paints.

Here is the thing though, I've never had a .2 brush. So I'm not aware of what will and will not flow though it. If you are saying that I will have problems flowing matte vallejo game colors, model colors, and the air lines though it then I might have to step back up to a .3 because that is the majority of the paints I work with.

No doubt you will hear other words from other people - but in my experience, no - VMA won't even go through a .2 brush without causing problems. VGA are right out. You probably could thin them down enough, and crank the pressure up high enough to get something to come out - but in doing so, you loose the control that is sought by using a .2 brush. A lot of people seem content though spraying at 20 PSI and up, I like my pressures for detail painting to be done in the 10-15 PSI range, with fine details even lower than that.

One thing I do hear often from those who do use them is the clogging/tip dry issues. I very, very rarely have a clogging issue - and normally it is when I do something I know I shouldn't do (try spraying large flake craft paints), and tip dry does happen - but I might have it happen once or twice a day, when I am painting almost 8 hours. Many of the people who are using those paints though are having to clear their brush tips every 20 to 30 minutes... Usually when I do get it - it is because I did something I know better than to do (like have lunch and forget to clear the brush before hand...).

For fine detailing I use Tamiya, Gunze, inks, enamels and lacquers - almost always gloss...though some of the Tamiya and enamels are flat. Those tiny needles were not designed with painters in mind - they were designed for illustrators. People who will be using ink, ink and nothing but ink. You can get away with paints that you can thin down to ink like consistency...but otherwise, you will end up fighting against your tools as opposed to using them.

Given enough pressure - you can put pretty much anything through an airbrush...but that really isn't the goal.

I should also note - that there appears to be a little propaganda (or at least something lost in the translation) with the VMA flyer from Vallejo. They are demonstrating use of the paint using an H&S Evolution with a 0.2 needle...something that I have. They are thinning the VMA at 3 drops of paint to 1 drop of thinner (though they insist you don't need to). In order to get that to spray through that brush, I need to use 27 PSI. In order to get it to spray at under 20 PSI, I normally thin at 2 drops paint to 3 drops thinner or more.

Nothing against the paints - just, they are not for the super fine brushes, nor are the super fine brushes for them.

Very well put thank you. Well shoot, I guess I better look into a .3 then instead of the .2 There is nothing I hate more than having to fight the airbrush and do cleaning for almost an hour to do 20 minutes worth of painting lol. Maybe I should look into the HP-CS as I can get it locally.
In your opinion since you seem to know quite a bit, the CS, will it be able to do fine enough lines for what I'm looking for? Because if so, I'd love to go with Iwata bc I'm so impressed with the fit and finish of the single action I got.

On a side note, I know I need to thin down my paints more but I've had luck after I picked up a bottle of the Badger needle juice stuff. it worked like a charm and I've had less issues with clogging and drying. But I know that's really like a bandaid but still it worked.
BTW do you use the airbrush medium to thin down your airbrush paints or water etc?

Arschbombe wrote:

MitchellTyner wrote:

My single action is an Iwata HP-M1,

I didn't know Iwata made a single action brush. I just looked for the HP-M1 and it looks a lot like my Grex XA, which I like quite a bit.

But anyway, it's probably not worth it to you, but if you really wanted to, you could drive over to Hobbytown in Spring Lake. The owner uses and XGi and he might let you try it out. He's got one for sale in the case too.

My fiance' is from Dunn so next time I'm up that way I'll give it a look, but honestly I might be going with an Iwata... I just can't get over how nice their stuff is. Though the little I hear from people that have used the grex brushes are overwhelmingly positive for the most part.

@MitchellTyner -- Sean makes many excellent points. I have never used a patriot, so I can't speak for that airbrush.

I have 2 Paasche Talon double action gravity fed, 1 Panache single action siphon fed, and 3 Iwata's.

Within the Iwata family, do not discount the HP-CS. It is by far the easiest airbrush I own to clean. The C+ is a better airbrush in use, but the CS has a nozzle that doesn't require a wrench to take out -- it actually floats in place, held by the head. This dramatically speeds up disassembly, and the tip is a nice size to clean. The C+ (and every high end Iwata) has a tiny tiny nozzle that you're always afraid will get lost.

Compared with a paasche 0.2, the Iwata 0.2 has far fewer tip dry issues using exactly the some custom mixed, thinned VMA. I don't mean a little; it is extremely easy to notice.

Comparing a .3xmm Paasche and .3xmm Iwata, if you fill the cup with water and empty it out at 40psi, the Iwata will empty its cup in less than a third of the time (this also contributes to fast washing) between colors).

I purchased my Paasche airbrushes early on because the Iwata prices (especially replacement parts) scared me, and Paasche has such great prices for alternate needles, and had a preset handle. However, now, I almost never use my Paasche brushes and would happily sell them. Also, I am not particularly gentle with my airbrushed, though I do clean them well. I have never had to replace an airbrush part, on any of my 6 airbrushes.

Edit: stupid tablet autocorrect keeps saying panache instead of Paasche!

Talys wrote:
@MitchellTyner -- Sean makes many excellent points. I have never used a patriot, so I can't speak for that airbrush.

I have 2 Paasche Talon double action gravity fed, 1 Panache single action siphon fed, and 3 Iwata's.

Within the Iwata family, do not discount the HP-CS. It is by far the easiest airbrush I own to clean. The C+ is a better airbrush in use, but the CS has a nozzle that doesn't require a wrench to take out -- it actually floats in place, held by the head. This dramatically speeds up disassembly, and the tip is a nice size to clean. The C+ (and every high end Iwata) has a tiny tiny nozzle that you're always afraid will get lost.

Compared with a paasche 0.2, the Iwata 0.2 has far fewer tip dry issues using exactly the some custom mixed, thinned VMA. I don't mean a little; it is extremely easy to notice.

Comparing a .3xmm Paasche and .3xmm Iwata, if you fill the cup with water and empty it out at 40psi, the Iwata will empty its cup in less than a third of the time (this also contributes to fast washing) between colors).

I purchased my Paasche airbrushes early on because the Iwata prices (especially replacement parts) scared me, and Paasche has such great prices for alternate needles, and had a preset handle. However, now, I almost never use my Paasche brushes and would happily sell them. Also, I am not particularly gentle with my airbrushed, though I do clean them well. I have never had to replace an airbrush part, on any of my 6 airbrushes.

Edit: stupid tablet autocorrect keeps saying panache instead of Paasche!

Thanks for the info. Well I guess I made my mind up thanks to you guys. I figure I'll be printing off my 40% off coupon today and making the trip to the hobby lobby to pick up an HP-CS

I've heard nothing but good about this brush so I figure if it is as good as everyone says it is then I'll be okay. If not then down the road I can pick up a .2 later. The Eclipse seems to be the best deal for me right now.

Thanks everyone for your information and helping me decide on the brush. I hope to post some models painted with the brush here soon and hopefully continue to evolve my painting skill and use the paint brushes a lot less now.

Thanks!

Congratulations, man

I'm sure you'll enjoy using it. It's a solid airbrush. Now, the boring part... find yourself a guide and practice a whole lot on paper

You pretty much have to retrain yourself to do even the simplest of things. Mostly, as you begin, you want to be able to put spots of paint (dots) and draw lines of the correct thickness and size, more or less where you want them. Practicing a little grid thing (like graph paper) is helpful to train yourself and get some muscle memory. Also, experiment with what distance and air pressure do.

Remember that the vast majority of the time, you barely have to pull back on the trigger, and 15-20psi on your regulator will be more than enough air. For me at least, there was a burning subconscious desire to yank that trigger back and let that paint rip... but this is not at all a helpful thing to do, lol (unless big puddles of paint on your model is what you're going for!). Also, it's helpful to remember that most of the time, you barely move your airbrush hand (mostly, it's just tiny movements, like the wrist), and instead, mostly move the object you are airbrushing. To make this easier, I use double-sided tape to stick my miniatures onto popsicle sticks from the dollar store.

Have fun!

Talys wrote:
Congratulations, man

I'm sure you'll enjoy using it. It's a solid airbrush. Now, the boring part... find yourself a guide and practice a whole lot on paper

You pretty much have to retrain yourself to do even the simplest of things. Mostly, as you begin, you want to be able to put spots of paint (dots) and draw lines of the correct thickness and size, more or less where you want them. Practicing a little grid thing (like graph paper) is helpful to train yourself and get some muscle memory. Also, experiment with what distance and air pressure do.

Remember that the vast majority of the time, you barely have to pull back on the trigger, and 15-20psi on your regulator will be more than enough air. For me at least, there was a burning subconscious desire to yank that trigger back and let that paint rip... but this is not at all a helpful thing to do, lol (unless big puddles of paint on your model is what you're going for!). Also, it's helpful to remember that most of the time, you barely move your airbrush hand (mostly, it's just tiny movements, like the wrist), and instead, mostly move the object you are airbrushing. To make this easier, I use double-sided tape to stick my miniatures onto popsicle sticks from the dollar store.

Have fun!

lol I already airbrush you make it sound like i'm a beginner hahaha. But seriously I will have to get use to the new brush because it doesn't have the lock thing that keeps you from going full blast lol. I wander if the back side of my el-cheapo with the lock on it will swap onto the iwata. The masters looks like a copy of the iwata.

Also I use sticky tack and a wine bottle corks.