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Yep, practice is the important part. Most people don't have minis enough to properly practice on...so paper works the part.

I also like to use cheap diecast toys (cars and what not) that I can dump in my stripping pot for days, weeks or months when done. Helpful to try different techniques and colors on a 3D surface (see how light plays with them and what not).

Also - coins. Bit of double sides tape and stick a few dollars worth of change on a practice board. Start practicing coloring "between the lines". The details tend to be a bit soft, but doing things like painting the Lincoln Memorial on the back of a penny provide a pretty good exercise in brush control.

The HP-CS can do hairlines.
And getting to hairlines will take you a lot of practice, I'm sure you can and will buy another airbrush when you do get there.
It may be a tiny bit too large to do pupils on 28mm models though - I don't know if anyone does that with airbrush or what kind of training it takes either.

I have a H&S Ultra with a 0.2mm needle and it is a nightmare spraying paint. Even thinned Vallejo air jams it up tighter than a constipated moose.

Even inks and washes can cause blockages.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Tyronus Fruitridge Powers wrote:


Badger makes an inferior product to iwata and grex. I have 3 badgers one iwata and one grex. Two of my badgers leak from the nozzle hold down ring. They are the krome and the sotar. I think it has something to do with the design. When I put in airbrush cleaner you can clearly see bubbles and foam coming out from that part.

I've used Badger airbrushes for years, with the Sotar being my workhorse, and I have never experienced that problem.

While I predomantily use Badger airbrushes, I'm no fanboy by and stretch. I think Iwata brushes are great, but you pay for the name, which is important to a lot of people. Personally, I think H&S makes a superior product to Iwata and Badger (and just about everyone else for that matter).

I just happened to be watching an awesome paintjobs video and I saw bubbles coming out of Les' airbrush which is a badger, not sure which model but you can see the bubbles start to foam out from the piece I mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-S8AxB3lYw#t=243

Here is another video showing the air leak. And a quote: "I was told that the air leak shown in the video is a "negative feature" of the design but that it doesn't affect use of the brush." Sounds like spin to me. I can still "use" my airbrush, thats correct just like I can still drive my car on a flat tire too. As far I can tell Iwata and Grex feel its important for all of the air to go out through the nozzle instead of out the sides. I'm not an engineer but I feel like there will be inaccurate air pressure at the nozzle as opposed to the regulator if you don't have all of the air going out through the air cap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhSVRvWQmE

MitchellTyner wrote:
lol I already airbrush you make it sound like i'm a beginner hahaha. But seriously I will have to get use to the new brush because it doesn't have the lock thing that keeps you from going full blast lol. I wander if the back side of my el-cheapo with the lock on it will swap onto the iwata. The masters looks like a copy of the iwata.

Also I use sticky tack and a wine bottle corks.

It was something like 4am and I was sleepy when I wrote this.. I confused it with another message. Sorry :( LOL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:The HP-CS can do hairlines.
And getting to hairlines will take you a lot of practice, I'm sure you can and will buy another airbrush when you do get there.
It may be a tiny bit too large to do pupils on 28mm models though - I don't know if anyone does that with airbrush or what kind of training it takes either.

My experience with 28mm miniatures is that the hairlines you want are extremely fine (not like on large, military model, or on a motorcycle). Often, we want things like writing "DANTE" in a space that's 0.7mm tall and 2mm wide. Or, we have eyes to draw, where everything fits in less than 1 mm, studs to turn into jewels, or even purity seal scribbles.

I just don't think an airbrush is the right tool, no matter how small the needle, and even if it is technically possible, because if it sputters, there goes the whole miniature that you just spent 10 or 20 hours on. Plus, no matter what, you can't get away from airbrush lines being darkest in the center and fading out towards the edges. Desirable when making gradients, this is not a way to do crisp lines like eyebrows. When we paint with brushes, we'll often draw one fine line, and make it finer by closing in one or both sides of it with the background color -- you can't do that on an airbrush.

Of course, we can achieve many fine details by masking. However, if you're masking something, needle size doesn't matter much (0.2 is just a hassle for me, most of the time, if I have masked). The problem is, it takes as long to mask something as it does just to paint it with a brush.

Instead, my most common use for 0.2mm is to do basecoats without masking, though I will often use a foil shield to keep edges clean. I always brush on another basecoat layer anyhow, so a tiny bit of overspray is acceptable to me. For example, I spray an entire Tyranid or Genestealer one color, then do all the little ribbed things with a 0.2, and no mask, but as carefully as I can. Then, I go back with a paintbrush and basecoat the outer carapace and cover up any overspray.

I never use 0.2mm for things like OSL, because to me, predictable is more important than fine.

SilverMK2 wrote:I have a H&S Ultra with a 0.2mm needle and it is a nightmare spraying paint. Even thinned Vallejo air jams it up tighter than a constipated moose.

Even inks and washes can cause blockages.

Really? On the Iwata HP-BH 0.2mm, using Vallejo Game Air and Model Air + Vallejo thinner, it's not terrible. You just have to check on a piece of paper to make sure you aren't jammed before you do anything, and then pull it all the way back and clear it if it does jam up.

By the way, a MAC adapter really helps. I don't like the one at the front of the airbrush (like an Iwata BH). Instead, even on the BH, I leave the builtin one alone, and use a Grex G.MAC, which is a MAC adapter with a quick-connect. This allows me to keep pressure coming to the airbrush at about 18 psi (which is enough to clear jams) and reduce it down as far as I need with the little knob to do fine details. If I need to unjam, I can crank it back up without fussing with the regulator.

This is why I would buy the B+ instead of the BH -- except, when I got it, the BH was actually cheaper lol.

Tyronus Fruitridge Powers wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Tyronus Fruitridge Powers wrote:


Badger makes an inferior product to iwata and grex. I have 3 badgers one iwata and one grex. Two of my badgers leak from the nozzle hold down ring. They are the krome and the sotar. I think it has something to do with the design. When I put in airbrush cleaner you can clearly see bubbles and foam coming out from that part.

I've used Badger airbrushes for years, with the Sotar being my workhorse, and I have never experienced that problem.

While I predomantily use Badger airbrushes, I'm no fanboy by and stretch. I think Iwata brushes are great, but you pay for the name, which is important to a lot of people. Personally, I think H&S makes a superior product to Iwata and Badger (and just about everyone else for that matter).

I just happened to be watching an awesome paintjobs video and I saw bubbles coming out of Les' airbrush which is a badger, not sure which model but you can see the bubbles start to foam out from the piece I mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-S8AxB3lYw#t=243

Here is another video showing the air leak. And a quote: "I was told that the air leak shown in the video is a "negative feature" of the design but that it doesn't affect use of the brush." Sounds like spin to me. I can still "use" my airbrush, thats correct just like I can still drive my car on a flat tire too. As far I can tell Iwata and Grex feel its important for all of the air to go out through the nozzle instead of out the sides. I'm not an engineer but I feel like there will be inaccurate air pressure at the nozzle as opposed to the regulator if you don't have all of the air going out through the air cap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhSVRvWQmE

Both videos look like they fowled the threads on the hold down ring preventing a good seal between the tip, ring and body. This allows air to escape between the ring and tip (as opposed to going straight out to the spray regulator), create enough of a vacuum to draw fluid from around the poorly seated tip and cause it all to bubble up as a bit of a mess...

I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that Windex is involved with both brushes (many know of my opinion - and the information I have provided regarding Windex/window cleaners and the metals in airbrush parts). Those tiny little pits and other imperfections created over time can lead to poor fit between two parts that are now smaller than they were when originally plated... With so little contact area between the different parts - when something fouls, it doesn't have much to fall back on. The same issue can cause air to bubble up in the cup when air is on but no paint

In fairness to Badger though, I see similar things happen with Iwata's threaded tips (something like the Revolution - usually people over tighten and stretch the threads on those though...). When that happens - the threads on the nozzle cap are enough to prevent the bubbles from coming out the side - but you still get bubbles in the cup. In fact, a large portion of the Iwata brushes I see have that issue...pretty much from the factory. When the QC team checks them out, if they get bubbles in the cup - the smear a bit of wax on the threads - retest and call it a day. The first time a new owner does a full tear down and cleaning with anything stronger than water...the wax gets washed away and they now have a leak that they can't figure out where it came from.

The wax they use is why a lot of people hear about using a bit of chapstick on the threads to get a good seal. That falls in the Windex category for me though (not because of a specific substance I know is bad...but all the variables I don't know). Instead, I keep pneumatic thread sealant on hand (Permatex, Loctite and a few others make them as well). If after I do a complete cleaning and swap parts with know good ones (either new - or from a working brush) - I can assume the body of the brush is at fault (stretched threads, damaged surfaces...). If that is the case, a bit of needle lube on the threads, a bit of sealant on the lube (and threads under it), reassemble, no leaks. Also can be applied sparingly to metal to metal connections like between an Iwata or Badger tip and the seat (careful to make sure it isn't so much that it gets into the air/paint stream).

The only brushes that are really "immune" are ones that actually use a seal (Teflon disk, rubber o-ring...) to seal between the various metal parts. Brushes like the H&S Evolution. With those, you get a more reliable seal...even with worn metal parts because of the seals. Even then though, the seals will eventually need replaced.

oops - ignore

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I have a H&S Ultra with a 0.2mm needle and it is a nightmare spraying paint. Even thinned Vallejo air jams it up tighter than a constipated moose.

Even inks and washes can cause blockages.

Thank you for that lol, you just made my day. Constipated Moose...classic

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

In fairness to Badger though, I see similar things happen with Iwata's threaded tips (something like the Revolution - usually people over tighten and stretch the threads on those though...). When that happens - the threads on the nozzle cap are enough to prevent the bubbles from coming out the side - but you still get bubbles in the cup. In fact, a large portion of the Iwata brushes I see have that issue...pretty much from the factory. When the QC team checks them out, if they get bubbles in the cup - the smear a bit of wax on the threads - retest and call it a day. The first time a new owner does a full tear down and cleaning with anything stronger than water...the wax gets washed away and they now have a leak that they can't figure out where it came from.

The wax they use is why a lot of people hear about using a bit of chapstick on the threads to get a good seal. That falls in the Windex category for me though (not because of a specific substance I know is bad...but all the variables I don't know). Instead, I keep pneumatic thread sealant on hand (Permatex, Loctite and a few others make them as well). If after I do a complete cleaning and swap parts with know good ones (either new - or from a working brush) - I can assume the body of the brush is at fault (stretched threads, damaged surfaces...). If that is the case, a bit of needle lube on the threads, a bit of sealant on the lube (and threads under it), reassemble, no leaks. Also can be applied sparingly to metal to metal connections like between an Iwata or Badger tip and the seat (careful to make sure it isn't so much that it gets into the air/paint stream).

The only brushes that are really "immune" are ones that actually use a seal (Teflon disk, rubber o-ring...) to seal between the various metal parts. Brushes like the H&S Evolution. With those, you get a more reliable seal...even with worn metal parts because of the seals. Even then though, the seals will eventually need replaced.

This is one of the reasons I love the HP-CS so much. The tip is screwed onto a nozzle head, and that whole inner nozzle assembly self-centers into a screwless socket on the body. The nozzle cap is the only thing holding it in place (O-Ring, hand tighten is ok). Once you take the cap off, the nozzle head will drop right out with a little pressure.

Technically, the tip is screwed into the nozzle head assemble, but it's not meant to come apart -- in fact, Iwata doesn't provide the tool with the HP-CS, though you can use the wrench for the higher-end Iwatas to disassemble it if you really wish. The end result is, you never have to reseal that piece (or at least, very very infrequently).

It's pretty awesome that you can take apart the airbrush for daily cleaning without any tools, and that all the tip pieces can just be left in isopropyl (as all the O-Rings are on the body).

Talys wrote:

morgoth wrote:The HP-CS can do hairlines.
And getting to hairlines will take you a lot of practice, I'm sure you can and will buy another airbrush when you do get there.
It may be a tiny bit too large to do pupils on 28mm models though - I don't know if anyone does that with airbrush or what kind of training it takes either.

My experience with 28mm miniatures is that the hairlines you want are extremely fine (not like on large, military model, or on a motorcycle). Often, we want things like writing "DANTE" in a space that's 0.7mm tall and 2mm wide. Or, we have eyes to draw, where everything fits in less than 1 mm, studs to turn into jewels, or even purity seal scribbles.

I just don't think an airbrush is the right tool, no matter how small the needle, and even if it is technically possible, because if it sputters, there goes the whole miniature that you just spent 10 or 20 hours on. Plus, no matter what, you can't get away from airbrush lines being darkest in the center and fading out towards the edges. Desirable when making gradients, this is not a way to do crisp lines like eyebrows. When we paint with brushes, we'll often draw one fine line, and make it finer by closing in one or both sides of it with the background color -- you can't do that on an airbrush.

Of course, we can achieve many fine details by masking. However, if you're masking something, needle size doesn't matter much (0.2 is just a hassle for me, most of the time, if I have masked). The problem is, it takes as long to mask something as it does just to paint it with a brush.

Instead, my most common use for 0.2mm is to do basecoats without masking, though I will often use a foil shield to keep edges clean. I always brush on another basecoat layer anyhow, so a tiny bit of overspray is acceptable to me. For example, I spray an entire Tyranid or Genestealer one color, then do all the little ribbed things with a 0.2, and no mask, but as carefully as I can. Then, I go back with a paintbrush and basecoat the outer carapace and cover up any overspray.

I never use 0.2mm for things like OSL, because to me, predictable is more important than fine.

Thanks, I had exactly that feeling but lacked the experience to be 100% certain - I thought maybe some crazy good airbrushers managed to do all their fine detail with an airbrush because of some aspect I didn't know about


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The only brushes that are really "immune" are ones that actually use a seal (Teflon disk, rubber o-ring...) to seal between the various metal parts. Brushes like the H&S Evolution. With those, you get a more reliable seal...even with worn metal parts because of the seals. Even then though, the seals will eventually need replaced.

Like the back body O ring on my HP-CS, I must have over tightened it a few times due to screwing the needle holder in a bit too far (which is a feature by the way) and looking for the same kind of tension... Result is O ring is dead.

Just like I broke my first nozzle on the HP-CS, because it had a tight feeling between the screwable tip and the rest of the assembly. Then I washed it several times, lost the o ring, didn't notice, screwed it back on with as much resistance as it used to have, and broke the thread because of the lack of O ring.

That much to say that rubber O-rings or teflon disks can be a serious risk as well.

Since I replaced that part, I haven't detached the tiny tip from the rest of the assembly (the old part I superglued it together in case I ever need a spare again) and now I wonder why they even make it in two parts (a very similar part is made in a single part, all grey metal).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:
in fact, Iwata doesn't provide the tool with the HP-CS, though you can use the wrench for the higher-end Iwatas to disassemble it if you really wish. The end result is, you never have to reseal that piece (or at least, very very infrequently).

Actually they do provide it, and that's how I ended up doing that for every day cleaning, lost the o ring, broke the thread and had to spend €20 on a new piece.

But really, the design of the HP-CS is amazingly simple and you don't need much to fully clean it, I do appreciate that.

after battle (paint battle) report lol:

The HP-CS is a damn fantastic air brush. Holy gak it's nice. I thinned down my game colors a little too much I think as it was a little watery but I didn't know what to expect from this brush but holy cow, after some paint cup fixing where I put in more of the color and stirred it in the cup it was laying down beautiful coats of cayman green.

I painted for over 45 minutes. Basically, Arms, guns, Packs, and Shoulder pads for my entire firewarrior squad with not one single dry tip or clog. I'm simply beyond impressed with this brush.

Thanks again for pointing me at this brush guys!

morgoth wrote:

Talys wrote:
in fact, Iwata doesn't provide the tool with the HP-CS, though you can use the wrench for the higher-end Iwatas to disassemble it if you really wish. The end result is, you never have to reseal that piece (or at least, very very infrequently).

Actually they do provide it, and that's how I ended up doing that for every day cleaning, lost the o ring, broke the thread and had to spend €20 on a new piece.

But really, the design of the HP-CS is amazingly simple and you don't need much to fully clean it, I do appreciate that.

I think you're confusing the two wrenches. These are the two wrenches that Iwata uses on Eclipse and Hi Performance Plus/Hi-Line:



The Eclipse (HP-CS) wrench on the left is only for taking off the cap (not the needle). It's actually not necessary, as you don't need to overtighten the cap to the airbrush body (it's an O-Ring, so if that is in good order, just hand tighten is ok). This wrench is useless on the Hi-Line/High Performance airbrushes, as the cap is round. No wrench is necessary from taking the needle assembly from the body.

The Hi-Line/HighPerformance Plus comes with the little wrench on the right. This is necessary on the HP B+ C+ BH AH (etc.) in order to take off the needle, which screws right into the body.

The same (small) wrench can be used to detach the needle tip from the needle body on the HP-CS. Theoretically, I suppose you could do this to do an extra special cleaning (or repair), but it's not necessary. The detached needle tip looks very similar to the one that comes with the + and H series airbrushes.

Technically, I believe that the +/H brushes are superior because the needle tip is much closer to the body. Plus, I guess there is less of a possibility of a centering issue. However, in practice, it doesn't seem to make a difference for me. Effectively my C+ and CS are functionally identical, except that the atomization is a little different, and the CS is easier to clean (and obviously the preset handle).

morgoth wrote:
Thanks, I had exactly that feeling but lacked the experience to be 100% certain - I thought maybe some crazy good airbrushers managed to do all their fine detail with an airbrush because of some aspect I didn't know about

Hey, this is just my experience I don't see how it's possible to actually effectively do things like eyes and 99% of freehand on shoulders (like a Flesh Tearer insignia or even an ultramarine symbol) without a stencil, but maybe some airbrush god has mystic voodoo techniques I have never heard of

The problem with just thinning & turning down the pressure is that although the primary line is very fine, even one tiny dot of black on my model outside of the line that I want to draw is unacceptable, on something like a face, where I can't just correct it with a brushstroke after. Since there's like 10 layers made of 7 different paints and washes, I'll never cover with the same color; it's one chance, or strip, redo, and blow 3 hours doing the head again. In my opinion, a regular brush is just a better tool, but I would love for someone to explain to me how I'm wrong so that I can learn a new technique

On most instructional videos I've seen, the areas painted are large, or masked in some way. And on really gorgeous airbrush work, the paintings are much larger than eyebrows on a 28mm mini.

MitchellTyner wrote:after battle (paint battle) report lol:

The HP-CS is a damn fantastic air brush. Holy gak it's nice. I thinned down my game colors a little too much I think as it was a little watery but I didn't know what to expect from this brush but holy cow, after some paint cup fixing where I put in more of the color and stirred it in the cup it was laying down beautiful coats of cayman green.

I painted for over 45 minutes. Basically, Arms, guns, Packs, and Shoulder pads for my entire firewarrior squad with not one single dry tip or clog. I'm simply beyond impressed with this brush.

Thanks again for pointing me at this brush guys!

I'm glad you like it!! I've suggested it to many friends starting the hobby, and nobody has regretted it. If I would just be less convincing, I could pawn off my 3 Paasche airbrushes :\

Talys wrote:


Hey, this is just my experience I don't see how it's possible to actually effectively do things like eyes and 99% of freehand on shoulders (like a Flesh Tearer insignia or even an ultramarine symbol) without a stencil, but maybe some airbrush god has mystic voodoo techniques I have never heard of

The problem with just thinning & turning down the pressure is that although the primary line is very fine, even one tiny dot of black on my model outside of the line that I want to draw is unacceptable, on something like a face, where I can't just correct it with a brushstroke after. Since there's like 10 layers made of 7 different paints and washes, I'll never cover with the same color; it's one chance, or strip, redo, and blow 3 hours doing the head again. In my opinion, a regular brush is just a better tool, but I would love for someone to explain to me how I'm wrong so that I can learn a new technique

On most instructional videos I've seen, the areas painted are large, or masked in some way. And on really gorgeous airbrush work, the paintings are much larger than eyebrows on a 28mm mini.

It was actually a site I was meaning to post the link to further back in this thread (regarding the needle size/detail size issue...), but I couldn't remember the name of the guy. Had to phone around a bit before I managed to get the answer:

http://www.stevenleahy.com/

He paints pictures on razor blades - primary tool of choice is a RichPen 213 with a 0.3 needle.

Most the guys who do that sort of work don't mask...at least not like you might think. They may create a one off stencil for the painting - but most work is done using various shields. Same techniques are used in nail salons across the country (for somewhat less detailed work...but comparable to painting miniatures). He does a bit of a step by step on his blog of painting a Ducati motorcycle on a razor blade - but if you look through his gallery...it is amazing.

A bit more detailed (and well worth the money) are the videos by this guy:

http://www.chicagoairbrushsupply.com/maiaiacdvd.html

Unfortunately, he passed away a few years back - but luckily, the DVDs are still available. I was lucky enough to take a couple classes he taught back in 2005 - and it really improved my ability to actually get the most out of my airbrushes. Again, a bit of stencil work - some masking for certain bits...lot of freehand with and without shields.

After I get done - I will sometimes need to go back to touch up one or two places where I either dragged the shield and smeared a bit - or my airbrush angle was too low and I have a bit of overspray behind the shield area. Goes pretty quick, and even when doing things without a shield (as I sometimes do for speed...or not having one the right shape), I can come back and sharpen up the lines with a regular brush in little time at all.

I actually do more detail work with airbrushes than regular brushes. Prefer the look. Faces, in particular - facial hair (to include eyebrows) look better when applied with an airbrush IMO.

@Sean - yeah, when I say mask, I include shields, for instance, to mask off half of a sword when doing NMM.

I'd love to see some nicely airbrushed faces!

Talys wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Talys wrote:
in fact, Iwata doesn't provide the tool with the HP-CS, though you can use the wrench for the higher-end Iwatas to disassemble it if you really wish. The end result is, you never have to reseal that piece (or at least, very very infrequently).

Actually they do provide it, and that's how I ended up doing that for every day cleaning, lost the o ring, broke the thread and had to spend €20 on a new piece.

I think you're confusing the two wrenches. These are the two wrenches that Iwata uses on Eclipse and Hi Performance Plus/Hi-Line:

I got the small one, not the big one, in my sealed iwata box from Japan. I'm not confusing anything


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Talys wrote:


Hey, this is just my experience I don't see how it's possible to actually effectively do things like eyes and 99% of freehand on shoulders (like a Flesh Tearer insignia or even an ultramarine symbol) without a stencil, but maybe some airbrush god has mystic voodoo techniques I have never heard of

The problem with just thinning & turning down the pressure is that although the primary line is very fine, even one tiny dot of black on my model outside of the line that I want to draw is unacceptable, on something like a face, where I can't just correct it with a brushstroke after. Since there's like 10 layers made of 7 different paints and washes, I'll never cover with the same color; it's one chance, or strip, redo, and blow 3 hours doing the head again. In my opinion, a regular brush is just a better tool, but I would love for someone to explain to me how I'm wrong so that I can learn a new technique

On most instructional videos I've seen, the areas painted are large, or masked in some way. And on really gorgeous airbrush work, the paintings are much larger than eyebrows on a 28mm mini.

It was actually a site I was meaning to post the link to further back in this thread (regarding the needle size/detail size issue...), but I couldn't remember the name of the guy. Had to phone around a bit before I managed to get the answer:

http://www.stevenleahy.com/

Badass really, but isn't this a lot less precise than a Golden Demon miniature ?

You shouldn't need to use the small wrench on the CS. Without removing the tip, you can completely clean the nozzle head. With the red factory sealant, neither paint nor air can get into the threads. Neat that it came with the CS!

@morgoth & Sean - the razorblade thing is really pretty. I don't know how he pulled it off, and that's way past any skill I could achieve, I think.

One other reason I prefer brushes once I get into the detail is that I go through a lot of colors (but only a tiny amount of each color) which makes a paintbrush easier to clean change.

The amount of detail on the razor is pretty awesome, though.