CIA Torture report

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**Jihadin**

CIA was directed to maintain and interrogate Detainee's

Anyone know any CIA holding facilities in the US?
Did not know CIA lacked trained Interrogators...US Military has them

**Frazzled**

Jihadin wrote:
CIA was directed to maintain and interrogate Detainee's

Anyone know any CIA holding facilities in the US?
Did not know CIA lacked trained Interrogators...US Military has them

Of course they do. They're called Marine Drill Instructors.

**Jihadin**

Looks like Obama/Bush/Clinton might be rolling the dice to visit another country for a chance of being charged with Crimes Against Humanity

**Frazzled**

Bush I is prepared though. If needed, he'll just parachute right out of the airplane...

**Chongara**

easysauce wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Actualkly, judging by most of the world, the standards haven't changed a whit.

Things aren't somehow are perfect or free from trouble, but thinking the current incarnation of the world is somehow the same as that centuries and millennia ago seems to just be a bad understanding of history as well as what is actually happening outside ones door.

there is more slavery, torture and war now then there has ever been, what planet are you living on?

This isn't really true. Taken as a global average, any particular person's chance of dying a violent death are at the lowest point in history, particularly if you're a man. We're more interconnected so we're more aware of violence happening to others, and there are 8 billion of us now so the absolute number of deaths is higher. However, by any real measure violence in humans is on the decline and has been for some time. The were points in history where the most common cause of death was "Killed by another person" and we're pretty far from that now.

**Jihadin**

Frazzled wrote:
Bush I is prepared though. If needed, he'll just parachute right out of the airplane...

Or KM gathers a bunch of his buddies and slam a country to get Bush out. Hell I might join him for that

Obama.....let me think a bit...
Clinton....let me think a bit....POTUS/Monica stigma...though that cigar trick weighs in his favor

Edit
Grammer

Edit II
Grammar and spelling korrection

**easysauce**

Chongara wrote:
easysauce wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Actualkly, judging by most of the world, the standards haven't changed a whit.

Things aren't somehow are perfect or free from trouble, but thinking the current incarnation of the world is somehow the same as that centuries and millennia ago seems to just be a bad understanding of history as well as what is actually happening outside ones door.

there is more slavery, torture and war now then there has ever been, what planet are you living on?

This isn't really true. Taken as a global average, any particular persons chances of dying a violent death are at the lowest point in history, particularly if you're a man. We're more interconnected so we're more aware of violence happening to others, and there are 8 billion of us now so the absolute number of deaths is higher. However, by any real measure violence in humans is on the decline and has been for some time. The were points in history where the most common cause of death was "Killed by another person" and we're pretty far from that now.

it is true, I didnt say statistically or on average, so dont talk about something completely different then what I brought up and claim i am wrong.

factually, there is far more slavery, torture, and war if far more horrible right now then ever before. having millions of slaves right now is not "ok" or better then having tens of thousands of slaves in the past, simply because the ratio isnt the same.

**WellSpokenMan**

Chongara wrote:
easysauce wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Actualkly, judging by most of the world, the standards haven't changed a whit.

Things aren't somehow are perfect or free from trouble, but thinking the current incarnation of the world is somehow the same as that centuries and millennia ago seems to just be a bad understanding of history as well as what is actually happening outside ones door.

there is more slavery, torture and war now then there has ever been, what planet are you living on?

This isn't really true. Taken as a global average, any particular person's chances of dying a violent death are at the lowest point in history, particularly if you're a man. We're more interconnected so we're more aware of violence happening to others, and there are 8 billion of us now so the absolute number of deaths is higher. However, by any real measure violence in humans is on the decline and has been for some time. The were points in history where the most common cause of death was "Killed by another person" and we're pretty far from that now.

Every major power in WW2 targeted civilian populations as a matter of policy, it was only cosidered a crime when the countries that lost did it. 70 years later our collective conscience has improved, but it's a fragile thing. Changes in the space of one lifetime can hardly be considered set in stone.

**Jihadin**

FYI for the slavery bit
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/

**Frazzled**

Every major power in WW2 targeted civilian populations as a matter of policy, it was only cosidered a crime when the countries that lost did it. 70 years later our collective conscience has improved, but it's a fragile thing. Changes in the space of one lifetime can hardly be considered set in stone.

I would say it hasn't. We've not had a major since. The minor wars however have been bloody.

**WellSpokenMan**

Frazzled wrote:

Every major power in WW2 targeted civilian populations as a matter of policy, it was only cosidered a crime when the countries that lost did it. 70 years later our collective conscience has improved, but it's a fragile thing. Changes in the space of one lifetime can hardly be considered set in stone.

I would say it hasn't. We've not had a major since. The minor wars however have been bloody.

General Curtis Lemay firebombed Japanese cities base on their population (I'm not talking about the Nukes, just plain old incedinary bombs). He was promoted the head of the Air Force and eventually was a Vice-Presidential canidate. People are up in arms about drone strikes these days. We think we are better than we were, but you have a point. The worse things get, the worse humans get. It's in our nature.

**Chongara**

easysauce wrote:

it is true, I didnt say statistically or on average, so dont talk about something completely different then what I brought up and claim i am wrong.

factually, there is far more slavery, torture, and war if far more horrible right now then ever before. having millions of slaves right now is not "ok" or better then having tens of thousands of slaves in the past, simply because the ratio isnt the same.

A statement like "There is more war than there has ever been" isn't particularly meaningful when looking at absolute numbers. No comparison of the human condition across history is meaningful when looking at absolute numbers. The human population so much larger than it is in the past that you can make almost any statement in the format "There is more [this thing] than ever before" and have it check out in absolute numbers. It's a non-statement, it's functionally identical to "The population is multiple orders of magnitudes higher than it was 2,000 years ago". There isn't anything to what you're trying to assert it here, it's just noise.

**Frazzled**

Less than 100 years ago, we turned genocide into a facotry operation. At any moment someone could screw up and start a nuclear exchange that kills hundreds of millions of people.

There are conflicts in or between a majority of the nations on this planet. How the heck can you think we're doing better?

**Steelmage99**

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

If one needs to have explained to him why turning into a monster is a bad idea.....well, we have prisons for people like that.

**Frazzled**

Steelmage99 wrote:
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

If one needs to have explained to him why turning into a monster is a bad idea.....well, we have prisons for people like that.

"The Best vengeance is...vengeance."
-Frazzled

**Jihadin**

Time to build a new Coliseum

**easysauce**

Chongara wrote:

Spoiler:

easysauce wrote:

it is true, I didnt say statistically or on average, so dont talk about something completely different then what I brought up and claim i am wrong.

factually, there is far more slavery, torture, and war if far more horrible right now then ever before. having millions of slaves right now is not "ok" or better then having tens of thousands of slaves in the past, simply because the ratio isnt the same.

A statement like "There is more war than there has ever been" isn't particularly meaningful when looking at absolute numbers. No comparison of the human condition across history is meaningful when looking at absolute numbers. The human population so much larger than it is in the past that you can make almost any statement in the format "There is more [this thing] than ever before" and have it check out in absolute numbers. It's a non-statement, it's functionally identical to "The population is multiple orders of magnitudes higher than it was 2,000 years ago". There isn't anything to what you're trying to assert it here, it's just noise.

**Swastakowey**

We have come out of the most bloodiest century known to mankind.

As a result a few selected people on this earth can wipe us out with a few buttons.

Some of us live better lives than many lived in the past, others slave away in the dirt to make that possible.

The world isnt any better or worse than it once was.

Its better and worse in different ways. It always has and always will be like that in my opinion. I also think its certainly not better. For some, but not all.

**Jihadin**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

If one needs to have explained to him why turning into a monster is a bad idea.....well, we have prisons for people like that.

"The Best vengeance is...vengeance."
-Frazzled

I like frazz's quote,

also, hooking someones testicles up to a car battery (or whatever it is they do nowadays) with the intent to save millions from WMD's is a lot less monster-y then Clinton/Obama/Bush blowing up little kids by remote control.

"Be grateful that better men then you stand between you and the abyss."
-Easysauce

**Sigvatr**

Swastakowey wrote:

The world isnt any better or worse than it once was.

Uhm...

**CptJake**

Jihadin wrote:

Car Battery? You been influence by TV to much
Its not a car battery they hook you to but a TA312 Field phone

Two alligator clips, DR8 field telephone line split apart

one end of line connected to the binding post and the other to clip that's attach to skin

Then spin the hand crank.

I'm sure no one here ever had The New Guy 'hold these two wires for me'. Or WAS the new guy who held the two wires while the Other Guy furiously cranked the handle.

Which were all much better than some of the truly nefarious things which may or may not have been done with CS powder.

**Jihadin**

CptJake wrote:
Jihadin wrote:

Car Battery? You been influence by TV to much
Its not a car battery they hook you to but a TA312 Field phone

Two alligator clips, DR8 field telephone line split apart

one end of line connected to the binding post and the other to clip that's attach to skin

Then spin the hand crank.

I'm sure no one here ever had The New Guy 'hold these two wires for me'. Or WAS the new guy who held the two wires while the Other Guy furiously cranked the handle.

Which were all much better than some of the truly nefarious things which may or may not have been done with CS powder.

I rather take the car battery then deal with getting shocked with a 312 again. I did sign that freaking waiver and went in eye's open

**CptJake**

Jihadin wrote:

I rather take the car battery then deal with getting shocked with a 312 again. I did sign that freaking waiver and went in eye's open

Wrong answer. You can't sign away your basic human rights to dignity and freedom from torture. You should sue some one.

**Jihadin**

CptJake wrote:
Jihadin wrote:

I rather take the car battery then deal with getting shocked with a 312 again. I did sign that freaking waiver and went in eye's open

Wrong answer. You can't sign away your basic human rights to dignity and freedom from torture. You should sue some one.

SERE Volunteer

Edit

Important news
Possible Sharknado 3 has been mention on Fox "The Five"

**Kilkrazy**

"At no time did the CIA's coercive interrogation techniques lead to the collection of imminent threat intelligence, such as the hypothetical ticking time bomb,"

**CptJake**

Kilkrazy wrote:
"At no time did the CIA's coercive interrogation techniques lead to the collection of imminent threat intelligence, such as the hypothetical ticking time bomb,"

And?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Jihadin wrote:

I rather take the car battery then deal with getting shocked with a 312 again. I did sign that freaking waiver and went in eye's open

Wrong answer. You can't sign away your basic human rights to dignity and freedom from torture. You should sue some one.

SERE Volunteer

Edit

Important news
Possible Sharknado 3 has been mention on Fox "The Five"

Good, so you have documentation your rights were violated. The lawsuit will be fantastic!

**Ensis Ferrae**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Now I have been informed, mostly by guys who look like they spend more time with airsoft guns and at the local sammich shop then in the military, studying geopolitics and the methods and theories of armed conflict between nation states and non-state actors, that my ideals of upholding our convictions the right way, and not stooping to the level of the gaks we're fighting is a pipe dream. How about that? Apparently, to defeat the enemy, we need to wallow in that mud, throw out our humanity, take a leak on any concept of honor and just start glassing countries. Now I will absolutely joke about glassing the Middle East. That Ground Zero Ocean meme has to be over a decade old now and I giggle every time, but there's a lot of people in the Middle East, and even with the rise of ISIS not even a majority of them desperately need a case of acute onset lead poisoning. I even know some of them. I have friends in Jordan and Kuwait that I treasure greatly. I've even read the book a lot of people are so damn hung up about over there, and you know... with all the men I've buried, I still haven't seen, heard or read one damn thing that makes me say to myself "Yeah, feth it. Let's go burn a village and torture some fethers and see if anything comes out of it. Not like it matters."

Maybe I'm just outdated though.

I personally think that much of the hullabaloo is... misguided. Many comments on my facebook feed regarding this issue equate to: "We killed Nazi's without torture, so why do we need it now??" And my usual response to that is, "We DID have a few people torture Nazi's, you're just not reading about it in People Magazine"

I don't really agree with your "airsoft informants" but I also don't agree with your flip side. We don't really need to torture people to get information anymore, and we sure as hell don't need to wallow in the mud with the other "animals" in the barn yard.

**Jihadin**

CptJake wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
"At no time did the CIA's coercive interrogation techniques lead to the collection of imminent threat intelligence, such as the hypothetical ticking time bomb,"

And?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Jihadin wrote:

I rather take the car battery then deal with getting shocked with a 312 again. I did sign that freaking waiver and went in eye's open

Wrong answer. You can't sign away your basic human rights to dignity and freedom from torture. You should sue some one.

SERE Volunteer

Edit

Important news
Possible Sharknado 3 has been mention on Fox "The Five"

Good, so you have documentation your rights were violated. The lawsuit will be fantastic!

Um why? Career move.....or are you serious

NSDQ

**CptJake**

I'm just teasing. Seems suing and prosecuting for having that stuff done is the cool thing to do.

Those NS sure DQ flying low and fast over my property. Drives the horses nuts when a MH47 comes screaming over the pasture at like 300 feet.

Those are NG F models over the back pasture, the 160th guys come in much lower (but I always refrain from taking their picture) and generally at night but take about the same flight path. I keep waiting for them to use my pond to practice water landings..

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did everyone see where Zacarias Moussaoui, the '20th hijacker' is trying to leave the Supermax and go to GITMO?

http://news.yahoo.com/20th-hijacker-seeks-transfer-guantanamo-210419875.html

Thought that was pretty interesting.

**AlexHolker**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
We don't really need to torture people to get information anymore, and we sure as hell don't need to wallow in the mud with the other "animals" in the barn yard.

You never needed to torture people to get information. You never could torture people to get information. Even when you concede that they are unneeded you're still selling the CIA's bs.