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I like theorizing about rules and what they could be
These ideas will probably never be played, but I like throwing out ideas.

The current CW Eldar book is overall really well done, but has a few glaring problems. The biggest is balance. Davu is game breaking, WK is frustrating, and Jetbike troops that cheap and survivable is stupid.

That said, I have a number of ideas of things that, I think would make the Codex better.

Army Rules:

Battle Focus
-All Aspect Warriors, Autarchs, Phoenix Lords, and the Avatar of Khaine have Battle Focus.
-Nothing else (Guardians, Farseers, etc) get it
-It can be used by all models in a unit that have it, unless anyone in the unit used a heavy/salvo/ord weapon that isn't relentless. Models without it in a unit where models Battle focus may run or shoot, but count as having done both (can't charge). So DAs escorting a Farseer can do both, but the Farseer may either shoot or run.

Ancient Enemy
-All current rules
-Also, every time a friendly model attempts a Maelific spell, all models with this rule suffer -1ld
-Any successful Maelific summons from the same detachment also cause a break test.

Wargear:

Shuriken Weaponry
-Replace Blade storm with Shred.

Monofilament
-Retains +1S based on I
-On 6 to wound, instead of AP2:
--Treat any terrain/terrain checks as one category worse (clear -> difficult -> dangerous -> -1 to terrain check)

Distort Weapons
-Gain Strike down

Plasma Grenades
-Gain Pinning

Jetbikes:
-4+ save (only impacts Windriders anyways)
-Now a 20pt upgrade

Exarchs
-Can be upgraded to a greater Exarch for another 10pts
-Greater Exarch: WS/BS6, W2 A3 (Exarchs should eventually become much more skilled than Autarchs)

Troops:

Dire Avengers
-Gain Precision shots

Guardians
-WS/BS 3
-7 ppm
-Can upgrade to Black Guardians for WS/BS 4 for 2 ppm
-Storm Guardians may take a Lance instead of a Sword, or may pay an additional 1ppm to upgrade a Sword to a different Power weapon (still the same number of Power weapons per Squad)

Rangers
-11 ppm
-WS3
-Pinning
-Pathfinders are a separate Elites entry

Guardian Jetbikes
-Moved to Fast Attack (Unless a Windrider detachment is taken)
-Note that Jetbikes now just give a 4+

Wraithguard/Blades
-Only become troops if a Spirit Host detachment is taken
-Come in units of 3, can still be expanded to 10
-Slow and Purposeful (really hurts Scythes)

Corsairs
-As per IA:11
-Cannot fulfill the Mandatory Troops slats

HQs:

Seers
-Seers cost 65 points and are basically Spirit Seers but with access to Div and Telepathy instead of Runes of Battle or Telepathy
-Has a witchblade
-Can be upgraded to Spirit Seer for 5 points
-Can replace the witchblade with the staff for 5 points
-Can be upgraded to ML3 for 35 points

Farseer
-125 points
-Loses Runes options
-Ghosthelm: Once per power, may spend one WC to reroll one manifesting die or one Deny the Witch die.
-Runes are no longer options

Bonesinger
-50 points
-ML1
-Has access to Telekenesis
-Has Renewer, but can only affect Wraith constructs and vehicles instead of living models
-Cannot fill the mandatory HQ slot

Autarch
-Generate an aditional Warlord trait. Cannot have more than one trait in any tree
-Each wargear option is listed under a specific Path it comes from

Asurmen
-Receives 3 warlord traits, no two may be from the same table


Elites

Harleqins
-Can be chosen as Elites for any Eldar force (Corsairs, CW, DE, Exodites)
-May take a Dedicated Transport from any of those books
-Characters chosen from within this unit may select a Webway Portal as per the DE codex

Banshees
-Acrobatic - change to may Assault after Running

Wraithguard/blades
-Slow & Purposeful
-Blades may take double axe, double sword, sword +,shield, or axe +shield at no extra cost
-Blades may take axe + sword at +5 ppm
-Blades may mix and match for a further +5 ppm

Pathfinders
-As before plus Ranger changes, but at +8 ppm
-Does not require Illic

Fast Attack

Spiders
-Death Spinners are heavy 1 s5 Template Monofillament

Shining Spears
-Hit and Run base

Windrider Jetbikes
-Now Fast Attack

Heavy Support

Dark Reapers
-Note that they do get Battle Focus, but can't make use of it
-Range Finders affect the model, not the unit

Wraithknights
-Now a Lord of War

Wraithlords
-back to s10

Vehicles

Serpent Shield can shoot as heavy 1 6' torrent s7 pinning, instead of its current profile.

Falcons can be taken as DT for Aspect squads that can take Serpents and fit inside the Falcon

Falcons can take Cloudhunter packages for 20 pts. If a Cloudhunter is put in reserve, after all reserves are declared pick a prey. The Falcon may choose to take +1/-1 to its own reserve rolls. If it comes in the turn after it's prey, it may Outflank, and if it also has Star Engines, may choose to be a flyer for it's first round of combat. If it outflanked using this rule, any shots at it's prey are at full BS, and any shots at anything else are snapshots on that round.

Hornets pay 15 pts per Pulse Laser, and have access to standard vehicle wargear.

Scatter Lasers now give +1 to hit, even for snapshots, to one other weapon, provided it hits.

Upgrades:
-Crystal Targeting Matrix instead give the vehicle +1 on snapshots (hitting on 5s).
-Star Engines instead allow a vehicle to forgo all shooting to become a flyer, chosen before the vehicle moves on the controlling player's turn

Warlord Traits:
Seer of the Shifting Vector
-Once per player turn, the warlord, if still alive, may reroll one Deep strike die (not the whole result)
Fate
-If rerolling a 1 on a 2+ save, the reroll is at 4+ instead.

Asurmen's warlord trait-
Roll 3 traits, no two of which may be on the same table.

Relics
-Forbiddden Soul - a soulstone that provides any model carrying it +1 ML, and access to one BSB table for which the model does not have access. Any manifestations from that table act as Maelific for Perils and Ancient Enemy.
-Mantle - when retooling a 2+, it is rerolled as a 4+.

Powers
-Death Mission renamed Final Hour, cost wc1
-Mind War costs wc1
-Fortune rerolls 2+s as 4+

Alternative Detachments

All of these allow refilling Warlord Traits as per normal.

Swordwind
-Additional Elite and Fast Attack slots. These slots may only be filled by Aspect Warriors.
-One less Heavy Support slot
-All Troop Aspects gain Objective Secured (Dire Avengers)
-Each Autarch may, before deployment, select one Aspect Warrior unit from a Path he took a piece of Wargear from. That unit gains Objective Secured
-Each Phoenix Lord may do the same.

Windrider Warhost
-2-6 FA, 0-3 Troops
- Must take 2+ Windrider units
-Windriders gain Scout
-No ObSec

Spirit Host
-2-6 Elites, 0-3 Troops
-Must take 2+ Wraith guard/blades
-Wraith guard/blades gain ObSec

Black Guardian Warhost
-One less FA and Elite slots each
-One more Heavy Support slot
-Guardian Defenders, Storm, and Gauls gain ObSec
-For each Guardian squad chosen, a Seer or Farseer may be chosen without consuming a slot.

So what do y'all think?

Agree with the 6 inch serpent shield. That thing should not be out ranging lascannons with a 60 inch range.

Skeptical about dropping WS/BS on Guardians, vehicles, and Autarchs back to Imperial levels. I get the dichotomy and the upgrade on Guardians and vehicles but at those points costs there's very little reason to leave anything with BS3; as to the Autarch I get wanting the Path of Command to be less focused on personal combat than the Path of the Warrior, but you're taking an already nigh-useless HQ and making him even more useless. The best suggestion I've got for presenting that idea is the Xentarch (name came from a fake model release schedule from back before the 6e Eldar), he's a command-level Exarch with WS/BS 7 (Precedent: Dark Eldar HQ models' statlines). You'd need to come up with some distinct Path of Command stuff that would make the Autarch useful (something like how Tau Ethereals and Imperial Guard Officers can buff friendlies) but taking a bad beatstick HQ and making him a worse beatstick HQ while giving him nothing back isn't the answer.

I do support the idea of taking ObSec away from Guardian Jetbikes, and the changes to the Serpent Shield and the Skyhunter rule are interesting.

I think almost everyone agrees the Serpent Shield needs to be nerfed. Fastest and simpist is to just heavily reduce the range, but I think I prefer this option.

I imagine most vehicles would always be buffed back to BS4, but I'd love to make most Guardians BS3, while still enabling Black Guardians at BS4. My guardians, like most, are militia. But both should be available. Perhaps drop BS3 guardians to 7ppm, or bump Black Guardians to 10ppm? Either of those might go too far. Not sure. A lot of this, though, is to ensure the options are there, although they need not be competitive.

For the Autarch, I suppose he doesn't really need that nerf. I do wish there was something between a normal Exarch and a Phoenix Lord. But I would think they'd belong to a shrine, so would come with a unit.

I'd be wary about giving the Autarch Officer or Etherial-like abilities to buff their troops, because they don't really inspire like Officers and Etherials do. Perhaps more command-related things like reserve, outflank, and scout? Not sure what.

If we wanted a seperation between Command and Beatstick, what about adding a Prince entry? No official role in the War host, but Eldar are still innately feudal, even if Seer Councils and Command pathers make the real decisions.

As for WS/BS7, I used to think that PL were that because skills scale very slowly, but with the Vindicare being more skilled with a blade than Jain Zar, I could see using it. And perhaps beefing the PLs. Those are the current Eldar beatsticks. Yes, that random no-name Archon a millenia or two old is just as skilled as any Phoenix Lord...

Xentarch is interesting. Dunno, yet.

'Skyhunter' should be 'Cloudhunter'. An iffy, but potentially powerful, flare.

Having Jetbikes as troops just doesn't seem right outside a specific Windrider force. And a Windrider force shouldn't be securing. I like my ideas for changing them, obviously.
Also, I'm going to change Shuri weaponry generally to Shred. That seems to be what they do. And alter the DA thing to just Precision Shots (on 6s, of course).

I've never seen detachments that change which FOC slot a unit comes from. Have you? That isn't how they work usually, in fact the entire point seems to be that units are always in the section that they are printed in the book in.

Also, you don't seem to have come up with command benefits for them (e.g. ws5 for specific models in the kingsguard detachment)

Shred means that almost every unit's shooting needs to be re-rolled. I'm just not interested in that.

History trivia: exarchs originally were Eldar who had become trapped on the path of the warrior and went from shrine to shrine, accumulating skills and wargear. In game you could arm them with any combination of weapons.

Paying points for stat upgrades isnt usually an option in GW codexes. If it isn't visible as wargear (gun, jet pack, etc) or as an upgrade character (ilic nightspear), you can't usually buy it with points.

However, black guardians seem like perfect candidates for a Formation.

The biggest problem with the Autarch is that the Path of Command doesn't actually do anything. There aren't unique Path of Command wargear items like there are Path of the Warrior items (so the coolest Eldar melee weapons suffer from being unavailable on anyone who isn't a WS5/W1 sergeant), and the entire clever Eldar strategic school boils down to having the same effect as a mass-produced Imperial communications router, which seems a bit off to me. The Autarch is supposed to be a commander, not a champion; he's not someone who runs around and beats faces in for a living, he's in charge of an army, he makes other people do things better. Whether it's charisma/personal inspiration or just being clever enough to know exactly what to do at the right time it makes sense to me that an Autarch would have more army support mechanics than just a Reserves bonus and a Warlord trait. I cite the Ethereal as an example because he's similarly a commander who is supposed to increase the effectiveness of other people, not challenge the enemy commander to single combat. We're not Space Marines here. I propose a menu of 'Command Traits' that either confer benefits on the Autarch and any unit he joins (possibly restrict to just Codex: Eldar to limit ally shenanigans, but I can't think of anything he could make scarier than a Wraithblade unit off the top of my head) or allow him to select a nearby unit to gain a benefit (more flexibility that way).

As to the Xentarch they're easy enough to justify lore-wise; the Exarch of the oldest Shrine on a given Craftworld has a preeminent position, his students are those who have become lost on the Path of the Warror when there wasn't a shrine in need of an Exarch, or who were otherwise unsuited for teaching/leadership, so he can have a command squad of sorts composed of his students running around with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to FOC-slot change that was very popular in 4e/5e but has been falling out of favour lately. It's straightforward enough just to give the Saim-Hann detachment 2-6 Fast Attack slots and 0-3 Troops slots and no ObSec.

For the Autarch, what about giving them 1 Warlord Trait, cannot be rolled on the same table as Warlord Trait received for being the Warlord? There is a Combat table, but the other tables - including the Eldar one - are more what we'd expect from a great general than from a beatstick challenger. Although, Asurmen should be buffed to 3 traits instead of d3 traits to keep him special, but it's not like he's OP, or even effective. Whatch'ya think?

A Xentarch beatstick could be awesome. The Autarch certainly shouldn't be one. I've gotten used to my Exarchs being my beatsticks, but the best of them (Scorpion w/claw) will usually lose to even the lowliest of Librarians.

The 2-6 FA, 0-3 Troops no ObSec sounds like a better way to do Windriders, but they still need a Command Benefit. Perhaps Windriders get Scout? And require 2 Windrider units, I think.

Similarly with Spirit Host, we'd want to go to 2-6 Elites, 0-3 Troops, require 2 Wraithguard/blades, and they get ObSec.

All the others listed actually do have Command Benefits. Mostly revolving around who gets ObSec plus some slot adjustments.

As for Shred, people really hate Bladestorm, but simply stripping it would make DAs always lose to Marines in every way, despite costing Marine points.

I get Pelican's point about simply paying points for a difference. In regards to Black Guardians, for instance, they're significantly more black than non Black Guardians. Which would be more than just painting a helmet white or giving it a stripe or two. Perhaps the vehicles shouldn't have that option though? Options that aren't represented by modelling/painting isn't great.

The switched-up FA/Troops was how Codex Craftworlds did Saim-Han's FOC, it seemed to work then.

As for Guardians' statlines why not split the difference and make them all old Black Guardians? WS3/BS4 on Guardian Defenders and Windriders, BS4 on vehicles, and WS4/BS3 on Storm Guardians. Maybe have the option to do Wild Riders that are more assault-oriented jetbikes with WS4/BS3.

Sounds like not shifting units' roles is the way to go. This way seems to capture Windrider Warhosts better, and more customizably than the formation. Almost seems too taxing though. Should Guardians and DAs get ObSec for them? I think Scout for Wind riders is more fluffy and fair, but not sure.

I really like the idea of Black Guardians as an upgrade, as I'd like there to be a difference, but if I'm the only one, I could see doing be/WS 3/4 4/3 for defenders/storm.

I'll remove the -1BS/discount for vehicles. Even if they are Guardians at bs3, they do have targetters.

Wild Riders sound like a Corsair/DE/some exodites thing. Doesnt sound focused enough for Craftworlders themselves, to me. Perhaps add an IA11-like entry for Corsairs? I see basic Corsair units being available in-Codex for Craftworlders (but Bladesworn and Corsair Prince and others being Corsair-only).

I've wondered about giving more flavor to the CW eldar. Right now it seems largely guardians are ignored because DA are just used to get Waveserpents but I think weakening guardians overall will only exasberate the situation, making them cheaper is certainly an option though they would need to be cheaper for a squad of 10 then a squad of DA at 5, or the same cost, for people to take them.

Fluff-wise, Eldar tend to be a little less physically imposing as a human but more agile. (They are space elves after all.) This is accounted for in them being T3 like normal humans but Eldar tend to live a lot longer and have more training (even as militia). I can understand maybe seeing them as WS3/BS4 as they are still going to be better shots than the average human. If you lower them down to WS3/BS3, given their shorter range (1/2 that of bolters or lasguns), maybe lower to Guard-Vet level prices (6 ppm).


The biggest thing though that I think would be best would be to make the craft worlds actually MEAN something. Instead of individual upgrades for various units one could give Craft World Eldar something akin to chapter tactics. Might take some tweaking of the base units to truly make craft worlds have a focus and benefits.

Ulthwe: Guardians (Foot), Warlocks, Farseers, and HS vehicles gain some kind of bonus. Some penalty to aspect warriors (The number of units of aspect warriors cannot exceed the number of units of guardians for example)

Biel-Tan: X units (or type of units) gain 'Preferred Enemy' or 'Hatred' or something to simulate their hatred of other races.

Saim-Hann: Give X type or X number of units the ability to ignore the penalty for jinking for 1 weapon system.

Alaitoc: Give X units or type Scout, upgrade all rangers to pathfinders

Altansar: Ability to cast santic and maelific powers without penalty

Lugganath: Give X units or types deep strike or something similar

Yme-loc: Something akin to master-crafted, all exarchs, or all units have master-crafted close combat weapons?

Il-Kaithe: Remove Ancient Doom, add Preferred Enemy (Chaos Demons), and (Chaos Space Marines)

Iybraesil: FNP 6+ or something relating to sacrificing a wound to gain a bonus

MyMeara: Bonuses to heavy support options of some kind.

Iyanden already have a supp but there might be something that could be done with them.

Could also make a detachment that requires a specific craft world and then is built around units especially suited to it. Ulthwe for example could have bonuses to guardians or extra heavy support slots or something along those lines.

Those monofilament rules make me cringe hardcore.

Make them so, so, so, so much simpler.

Lendys - hopefully these changes would put an end to Davu being the core of all Eldar lists. The Serpent Sheild's shooting is substantially nerfed, possibly to the point of being overcosted. SL/SC Serpents will still put out some dakka, but it will be reasonable. So it won't always be 'cheapest Serpent'.

Ideally, DAs will be the choice for Troop hunting and pushing forward, whereas Guardians are either a desperate anvil (cheap bodies), or heavy weapon operators. Guardians are militia, so choosing them for their gun doesn't seem right.

Average human is BS2. Well trained humans - IG - are bs3, with elite veterans getting to 4. So I see untrained Eldar at 3, such as militia. But Black Guardians and Aspects are well trained (bs4), and Exarchs are better (bs5).

I love Chapter Tactics for my SM, but that depicts wholly sperate chapters with diverging training and culture. Craftworlders are very conservative, and only a couple generations have passed since the Fall. While Iyanden will field a Spirit Host at the drop of a pin, Biel Tan will risk their Honored Dead with the same force and doctrine if they are sufficiently boned. Biel Tan is known best for Swordwind, and Uthwe for Black Guardians, but Uthwe will fight some engagements with nothing but Aspect Warriors.

To this end, I feel Detachments are probably better for this flavoring. With the detachments named for the type of warhost (Spirit Host, Swordwind, etc), instead of Craftworld. Type of force to field feels more like a detachment-specific choice, not Craft world/collection based. Take a look at the listed detachments. What do you thiink?

Raverm, you're right. I wanted to make Monofilkimrnt feel more like webbing instead of strong rifles, but it gets far too complex. Probably will revert it.

It seems like you're just tearing the army to pieces just because a few things are overpowered...
Serpent shield, yes it should be nerfed (but not too much because the wave serpent is pretty pricey anyway...) Tbh I don't see the fuss with them, they never do much for me other than kill a few kroot (But then I only use one because spamming is boring)
Jetbikes do have amazing mobility for their points, but they don't take much to go down. I think making them T3 Sv4 is just making them too weak to be worth taking. Exploit the fact they are usually 3-6 models, pretty easy to wipe out with some firepower and they're only ld 8 so they can fly off the board fairly easily. Take away the assault jump might dial them down a bit, but the speed boost is a fluff thing.
I know what you mean with monofiliment, I wish it was more like 'a unit who suffers at least one unsaved wound from a weapon with this special rule treat all open ground as difficult terrain in the following turn" This is more fluffy and less powerful.
I don't think the wraithguard/blades need to be nerfed anymore, they're slow enough as it is. They're only really a horrific unit when they've got a spiritseer with protect in there. For their points they are pretty reasonable. If they had slow and purposeful then voice of twighlight is pointless and it doesn't even make much difference. D-Scythes aren't that scary...
Also, I disagree with the battle focus nerf. All armies have their 'equivilants' Tau have supporting fire and bonding knives, Necrons have Reanimation protocols, Dark elder have night vision and power from pain, Marines have their chapter tactics ect. Since Ancient Doom is pointless 99% of the time (I've never seen anyone using a slaanesh army other than myself) and not even that good with the 1% chance it has to even take affect. Battle focus is fluffy, gives Eldar a distinct difference to other armies, and is easy to forget. If you get the order of your running wrong you can easily mess up and not be able to shoot because you ran another unit who were in the way.
The autarch needs a buff, other than the reserves thing. And I do like the detachment rules, but then that can stop Eldar being versatile which is kind of the whole point of it.
Guardians and stuff don't need ws/bs 3 because they are Eldar. You can't compare them to Humans because they are better than humans... They have heightened senses and they are all battle trained, even the guardians are trained for war. I think it makes more sense that they are ws/bs4.
And bladestorm is the only thing really going for suriken weapons, take that away and we've just got guns that are 6-12 inches shorter range than most other troop weapons. And with shred you don't really nerf them because you're taking a 1/6 chance to rend away, and just giving them twice the chance to wound something. A squad of 9 guardians firing (one has the heavy weapon) with bladestorm against marines lets say gets about (Just rough estimates) 12 hits, 4 normal wounds and 2 rends, which is probably 3 marines dead. With shred it is 12 hits, 9 wounds, and then on average 3 marines die. It's probably not going to be much different.
Hope I didn't seem to Rant-like... I just don't like when people call Eldar overpowered, all armies have their overpowered units... Blame the player who uses all of them, not the army for having all of them.

Hi, guys. I love this sort of thread.

At TWilkins: Serpent shields aren't really all that scary because of what they can do to kroot. They're scary because they're able to deal with most vehicles and MCs as well as pretty much any ground unit at a great distance while ignoring cover/jinks. This is even scarier when combined with a scatter laser to gain rerolls.

I mostly agree with you about jetbikes. In the last book, they were pretty meh except as a fast, cheap desperate way of landing on objectives. The changes to bikes and the introduction of tactical objectives makes them much more useful despite the fact that they went down in points. The changes to shuriken weapons help them too. If you put them back to their old cost (22 points I think?) then I think they get a lot closer to being reasonable for their cost. They're basically only as durable as marines (with the ability to jink), so they *do* die pretty easily. Their increased offensive capabilities and improved scoring ability just means that they need to stay near their old price or even go up a bit in cost to reflect their new utility.

Wraith stuff is pretty easy to counter. The melee stuff dies to missile launchers, poison, lascannons, etc, and it's slow. You can generally just avoid/ignore it. The wraithguard don't pack much melee punch and will die easily to power fists, poison, MCs, etc. They're good-but-expensive units. They're durable and strong but have weaknesses.

Battle Focus is something I'm iffy about. On one hand, the mobility it offers finally lets them play the way I always felt they should be able to play in the past. In 5th edition, I was begging for the eldar to get a rule like this. Space elves firing at you on the run before vanishing behind cover seems fluffy to me. On the other hand, I can see it being annoying to people to be denied a chance at retaliation by a unit that runs behind cover or being shot by a unit that then also runs to claim an objective. That said, I'm curious as to which units people specifically feel Battle Focus is a problem on.

Most of our heavy hitters that have battle focus (dragons and spiders for instance) are too short-ranged to see major benefits from this. Are people really having trouble retaliating against something with a 12" gun? Our melee units seldom see use, but when they do, they're shooting shuriken pistols. Battlefocus is a nice perk, but not essential for them. On wraith guard, I can see Battle Focus being an issue thanks to the potency of their weapons, but on most other stuff, it doesn't really come up. Avengers can make good use of it by keeping their distance or by effectively having an 18" +6" movement + 1d6(rerolling)" threat range, but I don't find their fire power to be especially intimidating.

On that note, let's talk about bladestorm. There's a lot of hate for it out there, and I really don't see why. Assuming they're shooting meq enemies, they kill something like 1 extra marine than a marine squad without special weapons would. Sure, there's always the *chance* that you'll roll nothing but sixes to wound, but there's also a chance that you'll roll nothing but 5s. On average, you get one or two rending wounds. This is far from reliable for killing MCs, and they lack many comparable units' durability, low cost, or ability to threaten vehicles. Avengers basically *only* kill infantry reliably, and they're slightly better at it than the average joe. They also get battle focus, but that's in exchange for the extra toughness and power armor of a marine. Guardian shuriken catapults are 12" range. Are you really complaining about a t3 guy with a 5+ save shooting at you from 12" away? So if Avengers and guardians are out of the woods, what shuriken unit is the problem exactly? The cannons? The pseudo-rends are nice, but unreliable. Shuriken pistols? On average, you won't see a single rend from a 10 man pistol squad. I get the impression that people complain about bladestorm because it looks good on paper and because they're frustrated by the genuinely broken stuff elsewhere in the codex.

Monofilament's pseudo-rending is a little bizarrely good though. I could lose that rule (maybe replacing it with causign the enemy to suffer dangerous terrain if they move) without a problem.

Serpent shields are the biggest problem in the book right now, and I'd gladly trade them for a way to effectively deliver my assault units.

I can see an argument for BS/WS 3 guardians. I like that it helps distinguish them from avengers, and I like the possible Ulthwe statline boost it opens up. That said, low BS guardians were pretty much useless in the last book (except for storm guardians who were mostly only useful for their special weapons), and I'd rather not see them stop being used again. I think I'd be okay with them going back down to BS/WS 3 again if they could take more special gear. Sort of like a tac squad. They aren't aspect warriors, so maybe they should have options that make them more flexible?

I'm not trying to nerf them into the ground. I don't think that'd be the effect of these changes.

I really doubt the Serpent doesn't need that big a nerf, though. One is usually fine. 2-3 is rather rough. 4 is broken. But that is because they're such fantastic gunboats. They should have great dakka for a transport, if kitted that way, but nothing like what they have now. I think the above change maintains what it should have (survivability and an oh-crap shield shot) while bringing it out of the absurd gunboat role it has now.

Jetbikes should be as insanely mobile as they are. But Obsec is over the top, and with the 3+ they survive more than they should. Their survivability should be mostly their mobility, for terrain/los, jinking, and range. T4 4+ seems right to me. And FA instead of troops solves Obsec. They don't secure territory, even in the face of an enemy, like foot guardians. They are fast and meddlesome, which is more like FA. Points could fix them instead, but I think this would be a more measured fix.

At 7ppm, I think bs/ws 3 is more fair. Their special/heavy weapon is a big part of what they do, but you're looking at saving 20-40 points per unit. I think they'd be used more like militia this way.

I don't think Battle focus is broken as is. It really makes Aspect Warriors capable of doing their job. But that kind of focus, from a fluffy perspective, should only be Aspects. Doesn't seem right on my Guardians.

Lots of people complain about Bladestorm. I don't think its broken, but many do. But what is it trying to represent? I could see some argument about the monomolecular shurikens catching just right, but it is usually more discribled like a very high velocity stream of needles. Sounds a lot more like Shred than a chance of AP2. So that seems appropriate. As for viability, Eldar have a lot of specialized ways of applying AP2 wounds, so this loss wouldn't break them. Perhaps retain 6's always wound, though. Guardians will still pack a sting en mass, and DAs will still have their elite-troop-hunter roles, while still losing whenever they can't choose the engagement. But no more QQ about Bladestorm, and their rules more closely match their fluff.

I updated Warp Spiders to be much simpler. What do you think about s5 heavy1 template for their guns?

Heavy? On Warp Spiders? With a template? They'd be completely useless unless you gave them Reltentless to go with it. At which point the gun should just be Assault and you can cut a rule.

Spiders's packs count as Jetpacks. They are already Relentless.

That makes more sense.

Nice job making the codex nonviable and worse than it was at the end of 5th edition.


My bet is that your a one dimensional TFG at your local gaming store of 7 players, and your now mad because someone is actually beating you with the list you haven't changed in 3 years.

Learn to use your codex and stop blaming other codexs for your inability to win games.

We see a lot of those on these boards.

I'm an Eldar player foremost, and by a wide margin. I love Eldar. I actually don't think ive ever lost to CW Eldar, but that's mostly because my Eldar rarely ever face other Eldar for fluff reasons.

My list 3 years ago was a Cygnarian starter kit. So it has certainly changed. Regularly and significantly. I actually picked up Eldar to do Mechdar, transitioned to Falcons when Serpents were obviously too broken, and foot-based Swordwind (despite being Uthwe) when people didn't like facing Falcons. And now, Wraithguard, Rangers, and Harlequins are regular staples of forces I throw together. So, even ignoring my other armies, my lists haven't been identical for three years.

My meta has shrank a bit recently, and I am a bit of a TFG (working on that - there is a thread elsewhere about me), but not a WAAC.

I really don't think Eldar will be inviable with these changes. We still have all our fun toys. This would tone down Davu and WKs, but other things are mostly side grades or upgrades.

There are people like what you describe on the boards. Many of them eventually respond well to well constructed reasonable arguments. But this post is not one of those rants.


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@Anom Rake - do you mean you understand why I chose Heavy, or do you mean the changes themselves make sense?

Bharring wrote:
We see a lot of those on these boards.

I'm an Eldar player foremost, and by a wide margin. I love Eldar. I actually don't think ive ever lost to CW Eldar, but that's mostly because my Eldar rarely ever face other Eldar for fluff reasons.

My list 3 years ago was a Cygnarian starter kit. So it has certainly changed. Regularly and significantly. I actually picked up Eldar to do Mechdar, transitioned to Falcons when Serpents were obviously too broken, and foot-based Swordwind (despite being Uthwe) when people didn't like facing Falcons. And now, Wraithguard, Rangers, and Harlequins are regular staples of forces I throw together. So, even ignoring my other armies, my lists haven't been identical for three years.

My meta has shrank a bit recently, and I am a bit of a TFG (working on that - there is a thread elsewhere about me), but not a WAAC.

I really don't think Eldar will be inviable with these changes. We still have all our fun toys. This would tone down Davu and WKs, but other things are mostly side grades or upgrades.

There are people like what you describe on the boards. Many of them eventually respond well to well constructed reasonable arguments. But this post is not one of those rants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Anom Rake - do you mean you understand why I chose Heavy, or do you mean the changes themselves make sense?

It sounds like your playing in a fluff / narrative / less competitive environment.

From a competitive large scale tournament POV your making the list non-viable.

The list or the Dex?
4 Davu +WK +anti-armor of choice wouldn't curbstomp anymore, but wouldn't other lists be viable? Is that really the only possibility for the Dex? If so, what would need to be done to fix that, do you think?

(And yes, I am more of a fluff player)

Bharring wrote:
The list or the Dex?
4 Davu +WK +anti-armor of choice wouldn't curbstomp anymore, but wouldn't other lists be viable? Is that really the only possibility for the Dex? If so, what would need to be done to fix that, do you think?

(And yes, I am more of a fluff player)

Changing of Guardian Jetbikes doesnt make sense.

I like the idea of jetbikes being t4 with a 4+ save. Heavy flamers are terrifying to such a unit, but then they probably should be! Moving them to FA makes a lot of sense, but it also has a few problems. For one thing, guardian jetbikes don't really compete with Hawks, Spiders, or some of the other FA options except maybe in minimum squads as a harassment option. Most people wanting to do FA bikes, I think, would probably just go with shining spears. They're very good as troops, but they're pretty meh as FA. Additionally, removing them from troops will make many a Saim-Hann player sad unless they're accompanied by some sort of formation that opens up more FA slots and lets bikes be your compulsories instead of actual troops. Here's an oddthought: what about leaving them as troops (probably with a small price hike) and simply saying they don't have objective secured due to their extremely mobile nature? That prevents them from competing with FA choices, keeps them from swiping objectives as easily, but still lets Saim-Hann lists be built and gives players a mobile non-vehicle troops choice.

Warp spiders with templates were a thing back in the day. It was super OP then, but it would actually be really frustrating and hard to use now. With the current template rules, it would take some some very ballsy positioning to ensure that everyone got to hurt more than just the first few models in a squad. Plus, 8" range would mean that you have to be that much closer to the enemy to shoot him. Even with an assault move and a fleet run move, it's going to be hard to stay out of charge range of the enemy (especially if you're using templates). Between having a harder time evading retaliation and needing to get closer to the enemy from more angles, I think this would make spiders lose their hit and run aspect and replace it with a super alpha strike feel. I'm not really a fan of that. Guerilla style attacks are cool and very appropriate for eldar, and I'd hate to see them lose the unit that's been trying to exemplify that since they came into existence.

Losing battle focus on guardians is fine by me. They can't make that good of use of it as is anyway. Rather than lowering their abilities and points, however, I'd like to see them simply get nicer toys to offset their poor training. They aren't terribly numerous, so spamming them like IG isn't all that fluffy even if they are millitia. Maybe let them take 1 heavy weapon per 5 guys, unlock some more gear (like a dawn of war style energy shield), and give storm guardians haywire grenades or something? That way, they dont feel like they're being thrown to the wolves as a meat shield, and they get to show off the advanced and prevalent technology of the eldar.

Shred on catapult weapons almost seems too good to me (I'm pretty sure it's a lot scarier to non-MCs than the current bladestorm is), and it makes doom have less of a purpose. Fluffwise, I think the dea is that the shuriken catches the right angle on a piece of armor and goes straight through it thanks to its sharpness rather than being partially deflected. I remain unconvinced that bladestorm really needs changing. What is the argument against it exactly? Is anyone regularly having their army torn apart by shuriken fire? 'nids, orks, IG, and dark eldar are already used to not getting saves against small arms fire. If it's tau and marines complaining, I'd like to point out that cover is still a thing even if you're used to a 3+ save. Also, it takes 10 shuriken catapults to reliably do 1 or 2 pseudo-rends. If you kill any space elves in a squad at all, he now has to get lucky to ignore your save.

Wyldhunt's first post is completely correct and good. If he had a codex, I'd play with it in a second. I'm assuming it would be a commercial GW codex, too, so I'm sure I'd have to opportunity.

I can't imaging having the patience to explain why shred is a bad choice for shuriken weapons. Shred is a terrible rule for shuriken weapons on every level. You just have to know.

Jetbikes, also, are troops, fundamentally. I don't think it has anything to do with Saim-hann. There is nothing about them that is "fast attack." Get back to me when they have fusion guns or power lances. As long as they have they currently have, they are fast-moving line troops, that's all.

He's righ that "For one thing, guardian jetbikes don't really compete with Hawks, Spiders, or some of the other FA options." Fast Attack means putting a meltagun or power-thing in the right place can do a lot of damage. Both guardian jetbikes and all other troops just function to prevent the enemy from moving directly across the terrain that the troops unit happens to be near at that moment.


Battle focus, if anything, could be more powerful. I'd make it a fake/bonus version of run. You can do everything you can now, but could also choose to run+run or run+assault. E.g. "units with this rule may move d6 inches during their shooting phases. This movement does not count as running and does not affect whether the unit may run, shoot, or assault."

pelicaniforce wrote:

Battle focus, if anything, could be more powerful. I'd make it a fake/bonus version of run. You can do everything you can now, but could also choose to run+run or run+assault. E.g. "units with this rule may move d6 inches during their shooting phases. This movement does not count as running and does not affect whether the unit may run, shoot, or assault."

I could take my Banshees off the shelf!

So Bladestorm, revert to as now? Sounds like consensus, and sounds better.

Battle Focus: Two ideas-
1) Make Acrobatic allow the unit to make one Run move per Shooting phase, which doesn't count for Running (Can still BF or Assault)?
2) BF add: Allow Running out of transports in the Shooting phase, but retain shooting restrictions per transport movement (as moving for 6", snap for 12", not at all for flat out)? Gets them into position faster, but might be too good.

For Jetbikes, how bout:
-t4 4+
-Troops
-No ObSec
-Cannot fill mandatory
(For Windrider Warhost - like Sam Hain - that detachment would be adjusted)


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Wraithblades shouldn't be S&P, but I really thing Wraithguard should be. Fluffwise, they are slow and steady.

The changes to acrobatic look okay. Basically, it lets you run before assaulting as per 5th edition. I'm not sure it really solves any of the problems Banshees (the unit with that rule) have though. Sure, it lets them assault a little more reliably once they're in range, but changing the rule means they can't run up the field as quickly (not that you want to do that anyway). Assuming they're coming out of a transport, they'll generally be close enough to the enemy to not need the extra run move. I guess you could use this rule to put them slightly farther away than normal to reduce enemy retalliation, but then I'd worry that the enemy would be too far away to get a semi-guaranteed assault.

Unless you mean BF and just typed Acrobatic by mistake, in which case, cool idea.

I'm not sure battle focus idea 2 is exactly. You can already run and shoot the same turn you disembark. doing so in the shooting phase rather than movement phase doesn't seem to have much point to me (unless you're using that vehicle wargear that lets you spin around after shooting to get a few extra inches). Maybe I'm missing something.

The jetbike proposal looks good, but why can't they fill mandatory slots? You'll force people to take other troops to have bikes (like davu troops for instance). I'm curious as to your reasoning on this point. If a person wants to sacrifice ObSec in favor of a speedy squad of jetbikes, t hat seems like a reasonable thing to allow in the troops slot.

Having wraithguard be S&P but not wraith blades feels awkward to me. They're basically the same guys with different weapon loadouts. I'd be fine with both getting it or neither.

Bharring wrote:

For Jetbikes, how bout:
-t4 4+
-Troops
-No ObSec
-Cannot fill mandatory
(For Windrider Warhost - like Sam Hain - that detachment would be adjusted)

Making them FA and then swapping Troops and FA for the Windrider Warhost accomplishes the same thing faster with fewer rules.

@AnomanderRake

Yes, but as previously pointed out, jetbikes don't compete well with other FA options.