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looking at the new IA13 book im failing to see why anyone would take support squads over the rapiers? is there something im missing?

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I am assuming you are talking about the heretics and renegades support squads?

I am actually considering one as a source of AA and to use the Tz devotion snap fire ability. The rapier batteries cannot snap fire and the support squads are so cheap that sticking it in a bunker w/ quad gun and hiding my warlord in it with them would be a reasonably priced AA unit. The only problem is that RH list is desperate for HS slots. Thus I would only do this if using multi CAD.

 ansacs wrote:
I am assuming you are talking about the heretics and renegades support squads?

I am actually considering one as a source of AA and to use the Tz devotion snap fire ability. The rapier batteries cannot snap fire and the support squads are so cheap that sticking it in a bunker w/ quad gun and hiding my warlord in it with them would be a reasonably priced AA unit. The only problem is that RH list is desperate for HS slots. Thus I would only do this if using multi CAD.

Which is pretty cheap.

You get twice as much fire power for the HS slot. The Laser Destroyer is definitely amazing for the low price of just under 80 pts but it still is only 3 shots and after rolling everything and potential saves it rarely does more then 2 HPs/wounds so short of rolling a 5+ for explode that's not a dead anything. R&H's only good shooting is in heavy support so you need to make those slots count and sometimes you need to bite the cost bullet to be able to get the substantial fire power you need (such as through Leman Russes or HWSs).

Support Squads give you up to 6 heavy weapons which is twice the potential fire power the LRDs can do (and generally two guns is better then 1 Twin Linked gun). Of course they're super fragile and inaccurate so you need to support them with a Imperial Wall Bunker to hide in or a Tzeentch Herald or Balestar Sorcerer for prescience. They may be less efficient points wise but they have enough fire power to kill things which is saying something.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You get twice as much fire power for the HS slot. The Laser Destroyer is definitely amazing for the low price of just under 80 pts but it still is only 3 shots and after rolling everything and potential saves it rarely does more then 2 HPs/wounds so short of rolling a 5+ for explode that's not a dead anything. R&H's only good shooting is in heavy support so you need to make those slots count and sometimes you need to bite the cost bullet to be able to get the substantial fire power you need (such as through Leman Russes or HWSs).

Support Squads give you up to 6 heavy weapons which is twice the potential fire power the LRDs can do (and generally two guns is better then 1 Twin Linked gun). Of course they're super fragile and inaccurate so you need to support them with a Imperial Wall Bunker to hide in or a Tzeentch Herald or Balestar Sorcerer for prescience. They may be less efficient points wise but they have enough fire power to kill things which is saying something.

A Firestorm Redoubt has a wide fireing point through which 6 models can shoot. Put six Lascannons in there and... Boom!

 CrownAxe wrote:
You get twice as much fire power for the HS slot. The Laser Destroyer is definitely amazing for the low price of just under 80 pts but it still is only 3 shots and after rolling everything and potential saves it rarely does more then 2 HPs/wounds so short of rolling a 5+ for explode that's not a dead anything. R&H's only good shooting is in heavy support so you need to make those slots count and sometimes you need to bite the cost bullet to be able to get the substantial fire power you need (such as through Leman Russes or HWSs).

Support Squads give you up to 6 heavy weapons which is twice the potential fire power the LRDs can do (and generally two guns is better then 1 Twin Linked gun). Of course they're super fragile and inaccurate so you need to support them with a Imperial Wall Bunker to hide in or a Tzeentch Herald or Balestar Sorcerer for prescience. They may be less efficient points wise but they have enough fire power to kill things which is saying something.

I am not entirely disagreeing but I would like to point out that the rapier has TL and ordnance built in. This means that 3 rapiers with training upgrade (70 pts). Actually does more damage to AV12+ than 6 lascannons w/ militia training (155 pts) or even 6 autocannons. The addition of gauranteed TL and ordinance which is even better than tank hunters is a serious boost in anti tank capabilities. This is even without considering that the rapiers will almost assuredly get multiple turns of shooting whereas the support squad almost always gets wiped out in a single turn if not placed in a bunker (in which case you could have gotten damage boosting fortifications, vets can take tank hunter and shoot a quad gun, vengeance batteries, etc.)

The only significant advantage the support squads have is they can snap fire and thus use the Tz ability to snap fire at BS2. This is pretty good against flyers or to duck behind an ADL for 2+ cover. I think they have their used but I would not call them a significant boost in effectiveness per slot.

Also talking about prescience like there is any guarantee,IMO is a mistake. A WC2 power in an army that cannot effectively spam WC dice is no guarantee. Not only that but you cannot cast a blessing if the psyker is embarked. This is killer as the unit is so fragile and has poor morale so it almost needs to be embarked in a building.

TL and ordnance isn't enough. Even with TL you only have a 42% chance of all three hitting. Its a 29% of getting 3 shots through and wrecking an AV12 vehicle through hull point loss even with Ornance and TL. If you don't get 3 hits through then you are just hoping for a 5+ to explode it which is good and is only a 46% of getting an explode against av12. this is all before being immobile means your opponent shouldn't have a hard time maneuvering into places where its getting a cover save or is out of LoS from your shots and reduces your chance of killing the vehicle even more. Or you want to kill a 4HP vehicle/super heavy/MC in which case will take you multiple turns to try and down them.

I agree that support squads aren't statistically better at killing vehicles but that a much larger potential for damage. Having the chance of getting up to 6 hits makes them threatening to more things then just regular vehicles and can potentially kill large MCs or super heavies. This is made all the more reliable with prescience (which btw R&H can't even get divination on their own so them not making WCs is a moot point. If you're going to get prescience you're getting it from allied Daemons who can easily spam WCs).

(Also I don't know where you are getting the idea that Laser Rapiers can't snapfire)

I think we may actually mostly agree. The rapier batteries do better average damage and are likely to do more damage over the course of a game as they are vastly harder to kill. Support squads can shoot flyers and if you sink points in them can become decent against MC, also the additional 12" of range should not be ignored.

If you take daemons for the prescience (I was thinking of the crimson slaughter prescience sorcerer w/ spell familiar). You have a major problem of not being able to join units and the support squad has to stay outside of buildings. You now are 2 S6 shots away from not having a support squad as you will struggle to buff their morale. That and you wasted a bunch of points that would could have used on a number of excellent daemon units.

Ordnance cannot be snap fired. It is under the ordnance rules in the weapons section.

Also if you don't care about hitting flyers and you are planning to give something prescience a unit of medusa heavy artillery carriages with bastion breacher shells can mostly kill an imperial knight in a single shooting phase if your opponent is foolish enough to ignore it.