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Sigvatr wrote: I don't see why. The Vindicare Assasin, for example, the old one, was about the best anti-vehicle unit out there and just killed everything with a single shot. Yet it was a single infantry model. Should it have been a giant MC?
I don't see how model size is supposed to reflect a model's actual strength on the battlefield. By the same logic, a C'Tan shard should be the size of a regular infantry unit, Necron Destroyers should be the size of Tau Drones, Sentry Pylons should be the size of regular Pylons etc. etc.
"Size equals strength" is a dead end.
Holy False comparison batman.
A vindicare is easily killed and requires LOS with a heavy weapon to pop a tank. A TC can just bounce over an obstacle and one shot something before an opponent can react whatsoever AND is tougher then 2 dollar steak.
At any rate, I wasn't saying the TC was too small to be a GMC but was calling into question how someone can keep a straight face while they tell me the model is nearly identical in size to a forge world GUO. Hilarious. Again, maybe he was being sarcastic.
Either way Gargantuan Monstrous Creature makes certain promises that the model doesn't keep...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 20:23:34
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Sigvatr wrote: I don't see why. The Vindicare Assasin, for example, the old one, was about the best anti-vehicle unit out there and just killed everything with a single shot. Yet it was a single infantry model. Should it have been a giant MC?
I don't see how model size is supposed to reflect a model's actual strength on the battlefield. By the same logic, a C'Tan shard should be the size of a regular infantry unit, Necron Destroyers should be the size of Tau Drones, Sentry Pylons should be the size of regular Pylons etc. etc.
"Size equals strength" is a dead end.
Horrible comparison. The Vindicare Assassin gets one shot per turn, costs about a quarter as much, and dies to pretty much any amount of focus fire. The T-C'tan deals out Apocalyptic Blasts and Mega-blasts, Hellstorm Templates, and 6d6 shots, is immune to small-arms fire, and can't be ID'd. A T-C'tan is comparable in stats to a Revenant Titan or a Lord of Skulls, able to murder half an army in a single go, not a single Infantry model with a gun.
I got a Hecatondies Zero Sigma from the Anima Tactics line that I have to assemble and and paint still to use as my C'tan. Debating on keeping the wings on or not.
Example, not mine:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 21:02:38
Kangodo wrote: Don't these C'tans live on suns?
If I remember my physics right, they have to be 'small' to survive stuff like that.
NecronLord3 wrote: Small flight base isn't provided with the model. The flight stand is obviously for the Vault/Obleisk only. The only legal way per tourneys like Adepticon is to field it on the large flight base(stem of your choice).
It was provided with my model.
You purchased the Tesseract vault or Bitz?
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Requizen wrote: The larger skimmer base (Arks/Barges/Destroyers) is slightly larger than Terminator bases, slightly smaller than Monstrous Creature bases, iirc. Don't have them in front of me at the moment.
Either way, it should realistically be larger. Heck, the whole model should be larger, given the relative power level. It can stand toe to toe with things like Revenant Titans or Hierodules and kick their butts, but it's only slightly smaller than a Daemon Prince or so. I feel like it would be much more widely accepted if it wasn't small enough to hide behind a Bastion.
So you are saying an aircraft carrier is more powerful than a nuclear bomb, since it's bigger?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The C'tan is nearly identical in size to the Forge world Gargantuan GUO. Just because inferior races create mechanical, bio mechanical or organic monstrosities that pale in comparison to a god like entity that can will reality around it, does not justify the size comparison one way or the other. Or think of it as the Dr. Manhattan of the 40k universe, if it so chooses it can be large, small, or operate as many small autonomous entires.
Sorry but I just have to say those two are not even CLOSE to identical in size. I can only hope you were being sarcastic.
I concur. The C'tan is smaller and trimmer. And, the base size means something. Less things can get in base to base contact with the C'tan.
The size doesn't matter from a fluff perspective, and is very cool in fact. But in game, it really matters. First, for your opponents, they expect a massive thing to stomp all over their armies, but it's kind of annoying to them when this model that's the size of a Dreadnaught does the same. Second, as mentioned, the T-C'tan can hide behind a tree. A Revnant Titan, Imperial Knight, Harridan, or Baneblade generally cannot. Being unable to target the most powerful model in a book because they put a Monolith in front of it is somewhat problematic.
RivenSkull wrote: I got a Hecatondies Zero Sigma from the Anima Tactics line that I have to assemble and and paint still to use as my C'tan. Debating on keeping the wings on or not.
Example, not mine:
Void Dragon? Perhaps. May need more tech Anima tentacles for the ladies....
And regardless anybody's argument about the C'tan being able to hide is bs. This game has numerous units that can Deepstrike without scattering. Drop pod armies have massive immunity from mishaping. If you build a list to counter the C'tan you can kill it. Thunderwolve cav also make quick work of the C'tan. There are plenty of counters to it. What there aren't counters to are the ridiculously over powered builds that are already legal in 40k. Wave serpent spam, ad lance, drop pod spam, biker armies of super friends, etc. many of which only have one solid counter and that's the T. C'tan.
Kangodo wrote: Don't these C'tans live on suns?
If I remember my physics right, they have to be 'small' to survive stuff like that.
NecronLord3 wrote: Small flight base isn't provided with the model. The flight stand is obviously for the Vault/Obleisk only. The only legal way per tourneys like Adepticon is to field it on the large flight base(stem of your choice).
It was provided with my model.
You purchased the Tesseract vault or Bitz?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: The larger skimmer base (Arks/Barges/Destroyers) is slightly larger than Terminator bases, slightly smaller than Monstrous Creature bases, iirc. Don't have them in front of me at the moment.
Either way, it should realistically be larger. Heck, the whole model should be larger, given the relative power level. It can stand toe to toe with things like Revenant Titans or Hierodules and kick their butts, but it's only slightly smaller than a Daemon Prince or so. I feel like it would be much more widely accepted if it wasn't small enough to hide behind a Bastion.
So you are saying an aircraft carrier is more powerful than a nuclear bomb, since it's bigger?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The C'tan is nearly identical in size to the Forge world Gargantuan GUO. Just because inferior races create mechanical, bio mechanical or organic monstrosities that pale in comparison to a god like entity that can will reality around it, does not justify the size comparison one way or the other. Or think of it as the Dr. Manhattan of the 40k universe, if it so chooses it can be large, small, or operate as many small autonomous entires.
Sorry but I just have to say those two are not even CLOSE to identical in size. I can only hope you were being sarcastic.
I concur. The C'tan is smaller and trimmer. And, the base size means something. Less things can get in base to base contact with the C'tan.
The size doesn't matter from a fluff perspective, and is very cool in fact. But in game, it really matters. First, for your opponents, they expect a massive thing to stomp all over their armies, but it's kind of annoying to them when this model that's the size of a Dreadnaught does the same. Second, as mentioned, the T-C'tan can hide behind a tree. A Revnant Titan, Imperial Knight, Harridan, or Baneblade generally cannot. Being unable to target the most powerful model in a book because they put a Monolith in front of it is somewhat problematic.
They have nearly the same LoS silhouette.
LOL, by using that technique I can make my dog the same size as an elephant!
Besides, much of the C'Tan model would be disregarded for LOS purposes.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Oberron wrote: If it gets to big I'll would be more difficult for it to be in the tesseract vault imo.
I fluff justify it as the T c'tan is a lot more dense because it is so many shards put back together.
I know this needs to be taken with more salt then the dead sea but i saw someone claim on 4chan that jan/feb is going to be necron/sister of battle santuary 101 type set up. But..... I've looked everywhere and haven't found bunk. Big time wishlister i'm gonna write it off as.
I love the fact that the TC is like a heavy element. I like to think that the TC is composed of "degenerative matter". A particle term in physics defining super dense matter compressed to the near breaking point of the orbits of subatomic particles. Matter found at the heart of singularies, white dwarves, etc. C'tans were sentient, primordial energy essences tied to the very fabric of the universe. GW gave them as sort of Galactus spin, except instead of eating high calorie planets, TCS ate STARS! Any fracture of a creature that ate stars for an appetizer gets a pass on size and power in my ledger.
They one thing I love to see changed in the TC is that instead of having various, but similar apocalypse blast options, that they are exchanged for thematic utility powers in the same spirit of stuff like Writhering Worldscape, Grand Illusion, Sentient Singularity, so on and so forth, but on an apocalypse scale. Either combining some of the aforementioned effects or adding an effect to some firepower. And honestly, how does phase shift technology have a better save than the entity they have sourced it from? I know our tech is supposed to be far superior to any of the existing races, but replicating an effect better than a cosmic god is blasphemous.
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NecronLord3 wrote: And regardless anybody's argument about the C'tan being able to hide is bs. This game has numerous units that can Deepstrike without scattering. Drop pod armies have massive immunity from mishaping. If you build a list to counter the C'tan you can kill it. Thunderwolve cav also make quick work of the C'tan. There are plenty of counters to it. What there aren't counters to are the ridiculously over powered builds that are already legal in 40k. Wave serpent spam, ad lance, drop pod spam, biker armies of super friends, etc. many of which only have one solid counter and that's the T. C'tan.
Hahaha. Or how about an invisible Eldar Lynx w/ pulsar and multilaser sitting on a skyshield firing off 2 60' rng hvy blast D Str atts that are twin linked for under 450 pts (skyshield and spiritseer not included)?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 21:54:11
NecronLord3 wrote: And regardless anybody's argument about the C'tan being able to hide is bs. This game has numerous units that can Deepstrike without scattering. Drop pod armies have massive immunity from mishaping. If you build a list to counter the C'tan you can kill it. Thunderwolve cav also make quick work of the C'tan. There are plenty of counters to it. What there aren't counters to are the ridiculously over powered builds that are already legal in 40k. Wave serpent spam, ad lance, drop pod spam, biker armies of super friends, etc. many of which only have one solid counter and that's the T. C'tan.
All of those things can be countered if you build a list to counter it. And much more easily than the T-C'tan in most cases.
I'm not saying the T-C'tan is the most broken model in the game, but the size is a problem, and it's one of the main reasons most tournaments don't allow it on the table. I love mine and I don't want it nerfed, I'm just pointing things out from a (hopefully) neutral angle. The weapons are appropriately costed, he has counters, but compared to other models of the same points cost and power level, the size discrepancy gives him a clear and relatively large edge.
No... it's size isn't the main reason that TO's don't allow it. 18 inch lines of D hits, followed by 6D6 missile shots at one unit and a hellstorm D template (at completely different units) in a S9 T9 body with feel no pain and almost a complete disregard of poison weapons as well. The size is almost a non-issue since almost the exactly same arguments are used against the Phantom Titan (which is much larger, size-wise).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 01:51:45
My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing "
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
Anpu-adom wrote: No... it's size isn't the main reason that TO's don't allow it. 18 inch lines of D hits, followed by 6D6 missile shots at one unit and a hellstorm D template (at completely different units) in a S9 T9 body with feel no pain and almost a complete disregard of poison weapons as well. The size is almost a non-issue since almost the exactly same arguments are used against the Phantom Titan (which is much larger, size-wise).
Right since Ad Lance is just so under powered by comparison.
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Azreal13 wrote:
LOL, by using that technique I can make my dog the same size as an elephant!
Besides, much of the C'Tan model would be disregarded for LOS purposes.
Those models are base to base with one another. That is not a perspective trick, like you are suggesting.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 02:28:54
How so? I can see plenty of the GUO behind the C'tan. If you can see the model behind it, then line of sight is not blocked.
On top of that, it could also be argued that the energy 'frills' fall under the category of "wings, tails and antennae" and would not block line of sight.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: How so? I can see plenty of the GUO behind the C'tan. If you can see the model behind it, then line of sight is not blocked.
On top of that, it could also be argued that the energy 'frills' fall under the category of "wings, tails and antennae" and would not block line of sight.
I never suggested that the C'tan blocks LoS to the GUO, but that both are equally visible on the tabletop with regards to LoS. Everyone argues that the T. C'an is to small to be a GC when a tent poll model for what is a GC is practically the same size as the C'tan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 02:31:33
You're basing you're entire argument on frilly extras on the C'tan versus sheer solid bulk on the GUO. Big difference there...
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Anpu-adom wrote: No... it's size isn't the main reason that TO's don't allow it. 18 inch lines of D hits, followed by 6D6 missile shots at one unit and a hellstorm D template (at completely different units) in a S9 T9 body with feel no pain and almost a complete disregard of poison weapons as well. The size is almost a non-issue since almost the exactly same arguments are used against the Phantom Titan (which is much larger, size-wise).
Right since Ad Lance is just so under powered by comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote:
LOL, by using that technique I can make my dog the same size as an elephant!
Besides, much of the C'Tan model would be disregarded for LOS purposes.
Those models are base to base with one another. That is not a perspective trick, like you are suggesting.
Regardless, putting something in front of another artificially increases the size, it's called perspective. The only difference between my dog/elephant example and your picture is the distances involved, and as Gaz says, and as I already mentioned, large portions of the C'Tan don't count for LOS purposes and don't block LOS anyway.
Yours is a fallacious argument and it's best dropped as being OT and wrong.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
No your size argument is total bull gak. There are plenty of examples of Monstrous creatures that are vastly larger than Gargantuan creatures. Size means nothing, there is plenty of potency and power in this regardless of their size. Any it's also a bull gak argument that it can hide considering how much precision deepstriking units that are legal in this game.
NecronLord3 wrote: No your size argument is total bull gak.... Size means nothing, there is plenty of potency and power in this regardless of their size.
Out of context, this might be my favorite quote for 2014
On topic, or maybe still off , your comparison is garbage dude. Hilarious and hot trash in fact. It's such a bad comparison that I genuinely thought you were being cleverly sarcastic. The fact that you have no idea what perspective is should explain away most of your ranting.
NecronLord3 wrote: No your size argument is total bull gak.... Size means nothing, there is plenty of potency and power in this regardless of their size.
Out of context, this might be my favorite quote for 2014
On topic, or maybe still off , your comparison is garbage dude. Hilarious and hot trash in fact. It's such a bad comparison that I genuinely thought you were being cleverly sarcastic. The fact that you have no idea what perspective is should explain away most of your ranting.
No I own both models. And side by side they take up just as much table space. They can or can't behind all the same pieces of terrain and models.
Are Wraithknights now GC because they are twice the size of a Wraithlord? Is a Heirodule now a MC because it's smaller than a Mowloc?
NecronLord3 wrote: No I own both models. And side by side they take up just as much table space.
'Table space' is meaningless. We don't use the 'magic cylinder' to determine line of sight. The GUO occupies a greater volume of space, period. Reverse your picture and tell us how much of the C'tan you can see behind the GUO.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
NecronLord3 wrote: No I own both models. And side by side they take up just as much table space.
'Table space' is meaningless. We don't use the 'magic cylinder' to determine line of sight. The GUO occupies a greater volume of space, period. Reverse your picture and tell us how much of the C'tan you can see behind the GUO.
NecronLord3 wrote: No I own both models. And side by side they take up just as much table space.
'Table space' is meaningless. We don't use the 'magic cylinder' to determine line of sight. The GUO occupies a greater volume of space, period. Reverse your picture and tell us how much of the C'tan you can see behind the GUO.
Like this?
Spoiler:
If you honestly can't tell the difference between those two pictures then you're either trolling or delusional.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
, your comparison is garbage dude. Hilarious and hot trash in fact. It's such a bad comparison that I genuinely thought you were being cleverly sarcastic. The fact that you have no idea what perspective is should explain away most of your ranting.
