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Torquar wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

There's no way Wraiths went up to T5 and kept the 2 wounds btw.

There is if the rumour of Phase Shifters dropping to 4++ is true.

a ~17% decrease in durability against ap3- doesnt compensate for a ~17% increase in durability against small-arms and immunity to <str 10 ID

Gunther wrote:

C'Tan Shard Nightbringer: 240 pts, Eternal warrior, Fleshbane, Gaze of Death - 12" AP2 Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership; the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.

Not to start the yelling match again regarding the C'Tan but I am curious about how the 'fleshbane' should be interpreted.
The way it is listed doesn't seem to suggest that it applies to Gaze of Death.
So to his CC attacks?
To Gaze of Death?
To the random better-luck-next-time attacks? (sorry I couldn't resist ;&gt

For the deceiver, it seems clear how Hit and run will work.

If the model itself has fleshbane, it's his CC attacks. It's pretty good honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Natalya wrote:

Torquar wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

There's no way Wraiths went up to T5 and kept the 2 wounds btw.

There is if the rumour of Phase Shifters dropping to 4++ is true.

a ~17% decrease in durability against ap3- doesnt compensate for a ~17% increase in durability against small-arms and immunity to <str 10 ID>

Supposing that they're still W2 and have their 3+ armour save that is...

t-thats whats being discussed...

Gunther wrote:

C'Tan Shard Nightbringer: 240 pts, Eternal warrior, Fleshbane, Gaze of Death - 12" AP2 Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership; the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.

Not to start the yelling match again regarding the C'Tan but I am curious about how the 'fleshbane' should be interpreted.
The way it is listed doesn't seem to suggest that it applies to Gaze of Death.
So to his CC attacks?
To Gaze of Death?
To the random better-luck-next-time attacks? (sorry I couldn't resist ;&gt

For the deceiver, it seems clear how Hit and run will work.

Seems it wounds automatically, so no fleshbane required for Gaze of Death.

"target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. "

Looks like it hits automatically as well, so as long as you roll a high number on a 3d6, someone should be dying.

Fleshbane would apply in CC though.
So yeah, bit happy with what they did there. Random powers still sucks though.

Eyjio wrote:
FWIW, I love the new art. It's quite remarkable that they managed to make Tomb Blades and Night Scythes look good, rather than awful. Even the derpy crowns look reasonably okay in that art. I did notice they cheated a bit with Night Scythes and had them fly upside down so as to not show the stupid exposed pilot...

I don't mind that one in particular, and I really like the bottom one, but in general I expected better.

Natalya wrote:
t-thats whats being discussed...

Huh? If the model has fleshbane, it applies to his CC attacks alone. It's only if it's on a weapon profile that it can be ranged, etc. I'm not sure I really get this post?

Eyjio wrote:
I am 99% sure the number is 18 pts/model now, just had a look at the nid force requisition and the 6 looks way different. So, tomb blades - almost certainly 18 pts/model.

changemod wrote:
What interests me about that page is the six fast attack and seven heavy support choices.

Side note: Just me, or does that army builder thing look like it was made in the 90's?

6 fast attack (again, squinting at the pixelated image of the Tomb Blades with an image enhancer):
Ghost Ark (? - definitely looks like 2 words, the last one no longer than 3 letters)
Night Scythe
Canoptek Wraiths
Canoptek Scarabs
Tomb Blades
Destroyers (?, doesn't really look like it but 100% not elites)


I'm reasonably sure that Heavy Destroyers are not listed here.

Heavy Support:
Heavy Destroyer (? - last bit looks similar to final entry of fast attack, first bit definitely looks like Heavy)
Canoptek Spyder
Doom Scythe
Monolith
?? (Uhhh... no idea honestly. Maybe Stalker?)
Doomsday Ark
Annihilation Barge
Uhhh... no idea honestly.


Again, these are guesses rather than reliable information. Tomb Blades were much easier to deduce the writing as it's standardised in the charts, and the upgrades are written with interesting word heights, making them mostly easy to pick out. The text for these is much smaller and in places literally a single pixel - impossible to tell.

If I can figure out more, or anyone has a fancy super-duper photo enhancer for digital photography rather than what I'm using (photoshop) then feel free to chip in.

Incidently, here's the elites page in case anyone missed it, from the iTunes page for the enhanced codex:

Note - Stalker is still elite, making that other entry a mystery indeed. Could it be that the Transcendant C'tan, Obelisk or Vault is now Heavy Support rather than a Lord of War? I am 90% sure that heavy Destroyers are Heavy Support, which stinks.

18pts for Tomb Blades with 5th ed rules would be a pretty good deal and the improved durability afforded by the rumored RP change would make them even better. The less believable rumors regarding the change to Gauss would make them a steal at that price.

Moreover this would mean that there is some combination of optional upgrades to the unit that costs 4 points since 18*3=54. If it's one of the upgrades available in the 5th ed codex then they've gotten considerably cheaper, which might get people to actually take them now (slapping a 3+ armor save on that model for 4 points? YES PLEASE, I'LL HAVE 'EM FOR THE LOT ).

I wonder if making Ghost Arks available in the FA slot means that Lychguards would be able to use them now? That would be awesome, especially if the rumors about their price drop are true.

Might have to make a Swag Ark with bling worthy of Lychguards if that's the case, can't have them surfing around the battlefield in a lowly swagless Ghost Ark like a bunch of peasants now can we?

Hell, that may even make Scytheguards viable over S&Bguards!

Transcendent C'tan being dumped into Heavy Support will probably be the what kills it even moreso than the massive nerf- that slot is WAAAAY too hotly contested for it to stand a chance...

Would've been smarter to make Transcendent be an upgrade to a regular shard that adds a few special rules and buffs its statline a bit rather than a separate and seemingly rather anemic heavy support option...

I'm beginning to like that Gaze of Death thing on the Nightbringer though, could be quite nasty if you can get it to teleport around the battlefield via that Exterminatus formation and stare stuff to death every turn (doubly so if the second Cryptek would be able to take a chronometron to reroll power selection).

It doesn't make sense for the tomblades to be 18 points the math isn't right.

That means that it's 54 points with 4 points of upgrades, which is kind of a weird number.

It could be splitand two models could have 2 2point upgrades.

Still a weird number though, I mean what's a 2 point upgrade? It's not a weapon choice, it's certainly not something that gives steath.

I think it's a 10 point upgrade and then 16 ppm.

So, looking at this image from GW website, that I found on tumblr… And looking at the card of the Trancendent C’tan, is it just me or is it listed as a Heavy Support.

You will have to zoom but look at the symbol on the top left, its the explosion we see for Heavy Support not the icon we see for Gargantuan creatures or Lord of War.

Yes this is my first post, yes I did make an account just to share this.

Hollismason wrote:It doesn't make sense for the tomblades to be 18 points the math isn't right.

That means that it's 54 points with 4 points of upgrades, which is kind of a weird number.

It could be splitand two models could have 2 2point upgrades.

Still a weird number though, I mean what's a 2 point upgrade? It's not a weapon choice, it's certainly not something that gives steath.

I think it's a 10 point upgrade and then 16 ppm.

I can only say what I see, and it's a close call anyway. I've seen weirder things than 2 point upgrades honestly. I suppose it could be stealth, but 10 points for stealth on a 16 point model? You'd need to be barmy to take it. Who knows, we'll see. Maybe they are 16 pts, would be a bit crazy to have them a point cheaper than Immortals, yet faster, better armed and yet only losing 1 point of armour. Immortals were pretty good anyway, just overshadowed by the immense power of Night Scythes.

SlimSlaney wrote:[/img]http://40.media.tumblr.com/bad5b605779e704c25f52a861070a68d/tumblr_nineivDa5Z1rcl04eo1_1280.jpg[/img]

So, looking at this image from GW website, that I found on tumblr… And looking at the card of the Trancendent C’tan, is it just me or is it listed as a Heavy Support.

You will have to zoom but look at the symbol on the top left, its the explosion we see for Heavy Support not the icon we see for Gargantuan creatures or Lord of War.

Good eye. Looks like we've found our 7th Heavy Support, and it's a super-nerfed C'tan. I mean, we all knew it was too good, but if it's like the other C'tan now, we may as well just accept that our Lord of War options are garbage. The Vault is nowhere near good enough to match other super heavies and unless the Obelisk has gained something rather wonderful, looks like we're a bit stuffed. There's always Forge World...

SlimSlaney wrote:
Yes this is my first post, yes I did make an account just to share this.

Hi ponders.

changemod wrote:

SlimSlaney wrote:
Yes this is my first post, yes I did make an account just to share this.

Hi ponders.

Hey! Small world, eh?

Eyjio wrote:
Good eye. Looks like we've found our 7th Heavy Support, and it's a super-nerfed C'tan. I mean, we all knew it was too good, but if it's like the other C'tan now, we may as well just accept that our Lord of War options are garbage. The Vault is nowhere near good enough to match other super heavies and unless the Obelisk has gained something rather wonderful, looks like we're a bit stuffed. There's always Forge World...

If it's a Heavy Support option then he's not a LoW anymore.

Maybe he can cast powers twice per turn? Just trying to find a reason for it to be in Heavy Support rather than in Elite with its siblings...

Eyjio wrote:

Gunther wrote:

C'Tan Shard Nightbringer: 240 pts, Eternal warrior, Fleshbane, Gaze of Death - 12" AP2 Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership; the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.

Not to start the yelling match again regarding the C'Tan but I am curious about how the 'fleshbane' should be interpreted.
The way it is listed doesn't seem to suggest that it applies to Gaze of Death.
So to his CC attacks?
To Gaze of Death?
To the random better-luck-next-time attacks? (sorry I couldn't resist ;&gt

For the deceiver, it seems clear how Hit and run will work.

If the model itself has fleshbane, it's his CC attacks. It's pretty good honestly.

Eh, not really. The Nightbringer is one of two candidates to receive the God Shackle upgrade, and that already makes him wound on 2+ on even most MCs. At first I thought it pretty neat, but str 7/8 is pretty darn unique.

Now the real problem is the pricing for an individual Nightbringer- is it really worth as many points as a Wraithknight? That shooty bugger gets auto T8, Str 10, and a jump MC status. Honestly outperforms the C'tan shards even before the obscene shooting. Disgusting!

My biggest wish is for nobody to buy the tomblades. I want that sculpt to die. Seriously a blunder of a design. If only GW would re-sculpt them along a more traditional Necron line, and I'd warm up to them. Look at that space combat artwork with the Tyranids! You could hire better DeviantArt contributors all for chips, and they'd do better!

SlimSlaney wrote:

Spoiler:

So, looking at this image from GW website, that I found on tumblr… And looking at the card of the Trancendent C’tan, is it just me or is it listed as a Heavy Support.

You will have to zoom but look at the symbol on the top left, its the explosion we see for Heavy Support not the icon we see for Gargantuan creatures or Lord of War.

Yes this is my first post, yes I did make an account just to share this.

Well that confirms what myself and many others had guessed.


"And the SM players cried out with joy!"
If it wasn't obvious that was a joke made in good faith... please don't force me to make a reanimation protocols roll!

 Galorian wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Good eye. Looks like we've found our 7th Heavy Support, and it's a super-nerfed C'tan. I mean, we all knew it was too good, but if it's like the other C'tan now, we may as well just accept that our Lord of War options are garbage. The Vault is nowhere near good enough to match other super heavies and unless the Obelisk has gained something rather wonderful, looks like we're a bit stuffed. There's always Forge World...

If it's a Heavy Support option then he's not a LoW anymore.

Maybe he can cast powers twice per turn? Just trying to find a reason for it to be in Heavy Support rather than in Elite with its siblings...

If the rumours are true, it's because it's got an extra wound and can deep strike. I mean, it's unplayable, but hey, I guess randomness is fun.

My comment about the Lords of War is because what we'd be left with is the Obelisk (hahahaha, no, a Lord of war with S7 shooting is not good GW, neither is a S8 thing hitting enemy flyers/skimmers) or the Tesseract Vault (used to be good, now in the same boat as C'tan - ruined by stupid S6 powers mixed in with actually good stuff, meaning it's an unreliable waste of space). We would have absolutely no Str D at all unless you take Pylons which, if you use the Warzone Damnos rules, are absolutely terrible. In a game where only Str D matters on LoW, that's a bad sign.

Good thing there's no massive S10 GCs which are super popular at the moment, nor a cheap Imperial walker with a Str D CC attack, because then we'd be really stuffed. Ha ha...

Yeah, unless we have something insane to take on MCs/GCs, we're screwed in games with LOW.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

SlimSlaney wrote:

Spoiler:

So, looking at this image from GW website, that I found on tumblr… And looking at the card of the Trancendent C’tan, is it just me or is it listed as a Heavy Support.

You will have to zoom but look at the symbol on the top left, its the explosion we see for Heavy Support not the icon we see for Gargantuan creatures or Lord of War.

Yes this is my first post, yes I did make an account just to share this.

Well that confirms what myself and many others had guessed.


"And the SM players cried out with joy!"
If it wasn't obvious that was a joke made in good faith... please don't force me to make a reanimation protocols roll!

My Transcendent C'tan never even got to slaughter any Space Marines, and already that glorious feeling is beyond his reach...

Oh well, he did get to blow up some Imperial Knights and survived duking it out with a Warhound Titan so at least he got to live, however briefly, before getting shelved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Good eye. Looks like we've found our 7th Heavy Support, and it's a super-nerfed C'tan. I mean, we all knew it was too good, but if it's like the other C'tan now, we may as well just accept that our Lord of War options are garbage. The Vault is nowhere near good enough to match other super heavies and unless the Obelisk has gained something rather wonderful, looks like we're a bit stuffed. There's always Forge World...

If it's a Heavy Support option then he's not a LoW anymore.

Maybe he can cast powers twice per turn? Just trying to find a reason for it to be in Heavy Support rather than in Elite with its siblings...

If the rumours are true, it's because it's got an extra wound and can deep strike. I mean, it's unplayable, but hey, I guess randomness is fun.

My comment about the Lords of War is because what we'd be left with is the Obelisk (hahahaha, no, a Lord of war with S7 shooting is not good GW, neither is a S8 thing hitting enemy flyers/skimmers) or the Tesseract Vault (used to be good, now in the same boat as C'tan - ruined by stupid S6 powers mixed in with actually good stuff, meaning it's an unreliable waste of space). We would have absolutely no Str D at all unless you take Pylons which, if you use the Warzone Damnos rules, are absolutely terrible. In a game where only Str D matters on LoW, that's a bad sign.

Good thing there's no massive S10 GCs which are super popular at the moment, nor a cheap Imperial walker with a Str D CC attack, because then we'd be really stuffed. Ha ha...

Yeah, unless we have something insane to take on MCs/GCs, we're screwed in games with LOW.

They shall fall down before the relentless onslaught of our great Tomb Blade fleets!

Hey, if all the rumors are true and our deductions regarding their prices are accurate they might actually be just that good...

Pylon can have some utility if you scout out a Skyfire Nexus before it arrives and use it to turn it's Skyfire off.

Other than that... Well, the Invulnerabubble is very large and it's point defences aren't awful besides the obvious range issues, so there's that I guess?

 Victory wrote:
Eh, not really. The Nightbringer is one of two candidates to receive the God Shackle upgrade, and that already makes him wound on 2+ on even most MCs. At first I thought it pretty neat, but str 7/8 is pretty darn unique.

Now the real problem is the pricing for an individual Nightbringer- is it really worth as many points as a Wraithknight? That shooty bugger gets auto T8, Str 10, and a jump MC status. Honestly outperforms the C'tan shards even before the obscene shooting. Disgusting!

Oh, don't get me wrong, the shards are dreadful, but fleshbane is still pretty good; at least it means that you don't ever have to worry about toughness. I do find it sad but hilarious that the Nightbringer, a model renowned to being a CC monster, is now really bad in assault (not enough attacks to clear hordes, not good at killing vehicles, weak to walkers especially and is worse than almost all MCs of a similar points cost) but has good shooting. It's literally better off hiding and firing pot shots than ever trying to charge. If that's not hysterically anti-fluff, I don't know what is.

Don't even get me started on the Deceiver, redeployment is meh at best, and leadership is so pointless in 40k it might as well not exist. Whatever happened to my beautiful star gods from 3e, which were at least badass.

Everytime I walk past my Tvault sitting their on its shelf I let out a sad little sigh. We had some good times those 4 games it played. Heck we almost went to Adepticon together buddy but thankfully I choose not to waste my money on losing. Oh well I guess it makes a pretty cool $160 shelf decoration. Along with his friends the Annibarge twins and the Scythe triplets.

(Unless something shows up unknown about the Tvault....like being 270pts with 14av and 9hp which would make it okay to use once and a while. )

It's a LOW now in the codex and does some insane gak. So yeah I won't be surprised to see them if they're not out right banned.

It won't surprise me if they are banned. They're pretty good even if it's random.

Expect to be like 700 points or some crazy gak.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Everytime I walk past my Tvault sitting their on its shelf I let out a sad little sigh. We had some good times those 4 games it played. Heck we almost went to Adepticon together buddy but thankfully I choose not to waste my money on losing. Oh well I guess it makes a pretty cool $160 shelf decoration. Along with his friends the Annibarge twins and the Scythe triplets.

(Unless something shows up unknown about the Tvault....like being 270pts with 14av and 9hp which would make it okay to use once and a while. )

270 points for av 14 and 9 hull points.

Occasionally useable.

If you mean game breakingly good instead of occasionally useable. If you think as is THAT would be "occasionally useable" you are going to be sooooooo disapointed by the likely nerf dex facing you in a week.

Eyjio wrote:

I can only say what I see, and it's a close call anyway. I've seen weirder things than 2 point upgrades honestly. I suppose it could be stealth, but 10 points for stealth on a 16 point model? You'd need to be barmy to take it. Who knows, we'll see. Maybe they are 16 pts, would be a bit crazy to have them a point cheaper than Immortals, yet faster, better armed and yet only losing 1 point of armour. Immortals were pretty good anyway, just overshadowed by the immense power of Night Scythes.

Quite a number of units have gone down in points between 5th and their 6th/7th edition codex. Nothing to suggest Immortals and/or Warriors won't see a similar reduction.

jms40k wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

I can only say what I see, and it's a close call anyway. I've seen weirder things than 2 point upgrades honestly. I suppose it could be stealth, but 10 points for stealth on a 16 point model? You'd need to be barmy to take it. Who knows, we'll see. Maybe they are 16 pts, would be a bit crazy to have them a point cheaper than Immortals, yet faster, better armed and yet only losing 1 point of armour. Immortals were pretty good anyway, just overshadowed by the immense power of Night Scythes.

Quite a number of units have gone down in points between 5th and their 6th/7th edition codex. Nothing to suggest Immortals and/or Warriors won't see a similar reduction.

They already had a sizeable reduction (Oldcron -> Wardcron). If there is another, it probably won't be by much.

So assuming the Triarch Praetorians rumors are true:

Never considered Triarch Praetorians before and don't know much about them.
So in CC, the 'rod of covenant' is a power weapon with no further definition.
A power weapon can suggest either a) Axe b) power maul c) Lance.
Given the BRB description and considering the bladed business end; its likely an Axe.
What's the consensus opinion how it is treated?

Unwieldly, hurts but on I2 not that completely terrible. +1S AP2 is nice but Sv3+
They might be interesting to assault non-CC dedicated troops but going last every time has to hurt their effectiveness.

Let me see if I get this correct:
SM Assault marine (17 pts WS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1/CC2 Sv3+) with the option for veteran sergeants with access to power weapons, power fist, and thunder hammer (I think, its hard to be certain as the rules appear to be spread all over the place)
So 47% more points for +2S +1T +2Ld AP2 but fighting at I1.
For the same points, you can effectively get twice as many wounds and twice as many attacks each going ahead of the Praetorians with SM:Assaults.
The Praetorians will wound 17% more and denies armor saves altogether.
Praetorians, Hits on 4+ and Wounds on 3+ (66%) (0.66W/turn) AP2 (no save)
VS
SM:Assault - Hits on 4+ and wounds on 5+ (considering 2 models due to points) (0.66W/turn) and 3+Sv (0.22W/turn) and RP/FNP (.1474W/turn)

Should be higher considering that some Praetorians will be dead before I1 comes around.
So discount the Praetorians W/turn by (.1474w/turn) results in something like (0.5126W/turn).
There are just too many Veteran options to hazard a guess but they will have a significant impact.
Unless, I've missed something seems reasonably balanced (if not buffed) against an MEQ standard.

So, what have I missed?

I'm getting seriously worried here. Let's assume that tesla destructors are nerfed to being roughly on par with rifle dreads (frankly, that's probably still optimistic). Let's assume that MSS are going to be neutered and probably pointless.

What's our anti-MC strategy? Like, literally, what do we have? We have neither the plasma of other armies, nor good high strength assault units, nor good MCs of our own. Barges are going to be too unreliable without the inv save in combat, and their major "please don't murder me Mr Wraithknight" MSS staller is gone. Without the mass S7, and assuming we don't get something insane like gauss=rending (we won't, only Eldar are special enough snowflakes for that), how can we possibly compete with these big MC spam armies? Let's be honest, double S on gauss isn't happening, it'll just be copy pasted from the 5e codex. What do we do? What's the answer with these changes?

Eyjio wrote:
I'm getting seriously worried here. Let's assume that tesla destructors are nerfed to being roughly on par with rifle dreads (frankly, that's probably still optimistic). Let's assume that MSS are going to be neutered and probably pointless.

What's our anti-MC strategy? Like, literally, what do we have? We have neither the plasma of other armies, nor good high strength assault units, nor good MCs of our own. Barges are going to be too unreliable without the inv save in combat, and their major "please don't murder me Mr Wraithknight" MSS staller is gone. Without the mass S7, and assuming we don't get something insane like gauss=rending (we won't, only Eldar are special enough snowflakes for that), how can we possibly compete with these big MC spam armies? Let's be honest, double S on gauss isn't happening, it'll just be copy pasted from the 5e codex. What do we do? What's the answer with these changes?

Well... we are AoC with Tau...

Rod of the Covenant are not power weapons...

Eyjio wrote:

Natalya wrote:
t-thats whats being discussed...

Huh? If the model has fleshbane, it applies to his CC attacks alone. It's only if it's on a weapon profile that it can be ranged, etc. I'm not sure I really get this post?

I think what he (she?) is referring to is your comment about the wraiths' wounds.

Gunther wrote:
Never considered Triarch Praetorians before and don't know much about them.
So in CC, the 'rod of covenant' is a power weapon with no further definition.
A power weapon can suggest either a) Axe b) power maul c) Lance.
Given the BRB description and considering the bladed business end; its likely an Axe.
What's the consensus opinion how it is treated?

If it remains a power weapon, it would be an Unusual Power Weapon due to having extra rules.