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 Naberiel wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
Magnus is a really smart child. He probably needed a couple thousand years of personal growth to match his potential, get some wisdom.

This is a great point. The primarchs are demi-gods, but do not possess the wisdom gained through age at the same rate they obtain their powers! Imagine if your son had the ability to explode a person's head like a watermelon by age 5! On an ability-to-age basis, the primarchs are like this 5 year old!

When HH started primarchs was few centuris old, so I am not sure if call them "kids"

If you were a couple hundred years old do you think you would have the wisdom and experience to rule the galaxy? I would think it would take a little longer, somewhere in the thousands.

The Emperor basically told the Primarchs jack gak about Chaos and the Warp, End of story.
If you trust them to lead your armies, you need to trust them with this crucial bit of information in the very least.

Just telling an experimentative mind like Magnus "No! Don't touch the warp, Bad dog!" without giving sound reasoning would never ever work, Anyone with half a brain could see it.

 Naberiel wrote:
We probably should make now threat for this debate as we get little off with it, but yeah its really dont mater if Magnus was childish or not as he was just a pawn of Tzeentch so he was unable to do something against it even if he want to.

That's... not really true. Tzeentch doesn't brain control people. He just puts them in situations where they will struggle to see the right choice, often to the point where the only option they can see (although not the only option available) is the one that Tzeentch favours.

however, if the emperor knew that the warp and what not was so dangerous, why would he intentionally create a mega psyker primarch. It was not to man the golden throne, because, the golden throne was an idea conceived after the primarch project came tor fruition. if it wasn't, would it not have made ore sense to perfect the human webway before attempting to conquer the galaxy?

 GKTiberius wrote:
however, if the emperor knew that the warp and what not was so dangerous, why would he intentionally create a mega psyker primarch. It was not to man the golden throne, because, the golden throne was an idea conceived after the primarch project came tor fruition. if it wasn't, would it not have made ore sense to perfect the human webway before attempting to conquer the galaxy?

I don't think that the Emperor had conceived of the idea of the Imperial Webway until late in the Crusade.

Hmm, or was it an idea that he had before the great crusade but had to launch the Crusade to get things going? If the Emperor had waited then it's possible that he never would have united the Imperium as he did or discover as many Primarchs.

When he had the Primarchs in tow he was able to leave the crusade to them enabling him to go back to Terra to work on his plans.

If he hadn't gone on the crusade then he might never have recovered Magnus.

Would Terra have been safe if he had waited is another thing to think on.

 dusara217 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
however, if the emperor knew that the warp and what not was so dangerous, why would he intentionally create a mega psyker primarch. It was not to man the golden throne, because, the golden throne was an idea conceived after the primarch project came tor fruition. if it wasn't, would it not have made ore sense to perfect the human webway before attempting to conquer the galaxy?

I don't think that the Emperor had conceived of the idea of the Imperial Webway until late in the Crusade.

That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

 Rippy wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Magnus is probably the one of the only Primarch who isn't just a man-child with too much power. His is a truly sad story.

Also, the Emprah didn't order his Legion destroyed, he only ordered them subdued and brought to Terra for questioning. Horus modified the Emprah's orders so that Russ thought the Emprah wanted Magnus dead.

He was possibly the biggest Man-Child of all!!
Being inpatient and not trusting his daddy in the psychic realm, having the personal belief his powers out stripped his fathers based on nothing, except arrogance. Magnus had potential power, but wasted it doing pretty much no good. Then when he made a massive child like mistake (of thinking he was alway right, and wrecking the Emperor's work on Terra) he cracked the sads and sulked while his legion and planet burned.

Edit: should have read what Furyou Mike wrote above me, as he wrote what I did, but more clearly lol. I agree with Furyou Mike!

Ignoring that he had actually stopped using sorcery, but only used it to try to warn the Emperor that Horus was starting his Heresy.

Custodies: So Everything is Magnus's Fault?

Emperor: Yes, that is what I've been explaining to you.

Here's a question. If the Emperor asked to have a primarch brought to Terra to account for his actions, and Horus was able to change that to a kill order, why would the Space Wolves have followed Horus' instructions instead of the Emperors?

Did the Emperor give the order to Horus, who gave it to the Wolves, or did Horus tell them to do it separately?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Here's a question. If the Emperor asked to have a primarch brought to Terra to account for his actions, and Horus was able to change that to a kill order, why would the Space Wolves have followed Horus' instructions instead of the Emperors?

Did the Emperor give the order to Horus, who gave it to the Wolves, or did Horus tell them to do it separately?

As the Warmaster, Horus has the authority of the Emperor and Russ has no reason to not trust him at this point.

Even though one of his own troops had a meltdown and warned him of it beforehand.

 GKTiberius wrote:
That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

Psychic Powers and sorcery being quite different.

Psychic powers weren't banned, there were librarians and Pskers a penty during the Crusades/Heresy.

 grendel083 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

Psychic Powers and sorcery being quite different.

Psychic powers weren't banned, there were librarians and Pskers a penty during the Crusades/Heresy.

Except for the fact hat after the Council of Nikea, Librariums are banned and the librarians were supposed to be folded back into the normal ranks. I don't think that statement invalidates my question. Why would the emperor intentionally create one of his sons to be a super powerful psyker if he knew it to be dangerous?

 GKTiberius wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

Psychic Powers and sorcery being quite different.

Psychic powers weren't banned, there were librarians and Pskers a penty during the Crusades/Heresy.

Except for the fact hat after the Council of Nikea, Librariums are banned and the librarians were supposed to be folded back into the normal ranks. I don't think that statement invalidates my question. Why would the emperor intentionally create one of his sons to be a super powerful psyker if he knew it to be dangerous?

Well, most of the Primarchs had great Psychic potential. It is my belief that the Emperor had originally intended to have his sons be Psyker-warriors before Chaos intervened and he just didn't have time to take off from the Great Crusade to teach his sons how to use their powers. I think that the main reason that the Emperor told Magnus to stop was because he was dabbling in things he had minimal understanding of and would likely end up screwing himself over if he continued.

 grendel083 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

Psychic Powers and sorcery being quite different.

Psychic powers weren't banned, there were librarians and Pskers a penty during the Crusades/Heresy.

They were completely banned, I dislike people calling Sorcery "Uncontrolled Psychic usage", They've banned every Librarium.
That's the reason Garro recruited that Ultramarine Former Librarian(stated to be former) because he disgraced himself by disobeying the Emperor by using his Psychic powers to save his comrades in spite of the edict.

Besides I believe it is stated more Legions, Including the Space Wolves kept using psykers by defining them as something else and being furry hypocrites(in the case of the wolves)

Khonsu wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

Psychic Powers and sorcery being quite different.

Psychic powers weren't banned, there were librarians and Pskers a penty during the Crusades/Heresy.

They were completely banned, I dislike people calling Sorcery "Uncontrolled Psychic usage", They've banned every Librarium.
That's the reason Garro recruited that Ultramarine Former Librarian(stated to be former) because he disgraced himself by disobeying the Emperor by using his Psychic powers to save his comrades in spite of the edict.

Besides I believe it is stated more Legions, Including the Space Wolves kept using psykers by defining them as something else and being furry hypocrites(in the case of the wolves)

The Space Wolves never used Librarians to begin with.

Right, they used Sorcerers.

It is strange that Fenris has the only source of non warp oriented magic in the entire galaxy... funny how convenient that is for them.

thanks for contributing to this thread its been great....

i have another question id like to ask...

it seems that in 40k there are many parallels, which leads me to this question... who do you think the loyalist parallel or equivalent of magnus is...

ex. dorn-perturabo

 GKTiberius wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
That is what i am saying. Without any specific purpose, and knowing the dangers of sorcery, why would he engineer one of his sons to be a powerful psyker?

Psychic Powers and sorcery being quite different.

Psychic powers weren't banned, there were librarians and Pskers a penty during the Crusades/Heresy.

Except for the fact hat after the Council of Nikea, Librariums are banned and the librarians were supposed to be folded back into the normal ranks. I don't think that statement invalidates my question. Why would the emperor intentionally create one of his sons to be a super powerful psyker if he knew it to be dangerous?

Well, that account of the Council of Nikea is certainloy *one* version. I'd argue it makes a lot less sense than the version that existed before the HH books came along, but that's been argued to death in other threads...

Valete,

JohnS

 chuckz1487 wrote:
thanks for contributing to this thread its been great....

i have another question id like to ask...

it seems that in 40k there are many parallels, which leads me to this question... who do you think the loyalist parallel or equivalent of magnus is...

ex. dorn-perturabo

Leman Russ was sort of like a toned-down version of Magnus. If he had landed onto Prospero instead of Magnus while Magnus landed on Fenris, then he would have probably ended up an insanely powerful Psyker and Magnus wold have ended up some kind of Rune Priest probably. In case you guys didn't know this, runecraft is an intragalactic art used by many cultures in the Galaxy since and before the Age of Strife. Its original purpose was to defend against Sorcerers and the Warp (at least for humanity). In Fallen Angels, it was revealed that the Knights of Lupus had extensive knowledge on Runecraft, which Luther used to defend against Loyalist Psykers when he first began his revolt.

 dusara217 wrote:

Leman Russ was sort of like a toned-down version of Magnus. If he had landed onto Prospero instead of Magnus while Magnus landed on Fenris, then he would have probably ended up an insanely powerful Psyker and Magnus wold have ended up some kind of Rune Priest probably. In case you guys didn't know this, runecraft is an intragalactic art used by many cultures in the Galaxy since and before the Age of Strife. Its original purpose was to defend against Sorcerers and the Warp (at least for humanity). In Fallen Angels, it was revealed that the Knights of Lupus had extensive knowledge on Runecraft, which Luther used to defend against Loyalist Psykers when he first began his revolt.

Since Scars suggests that Fulgrim was intended for Chogoris, rather than the Khan. This is something I have wondered on. How would the Primarchs have turned out if they had landed on different worlds and how would the worlds have been changed.

Much like Lorgar, I don't think Russ would have been as powerful as Magnus, as he was created to be something else. He doesn't have as much psychic mightl as Magnus, but like you say, If Russ had landed on Prospero, he would certainly have accessed more of his untapped potential. But ultimately, Russ was created to be a warrior. Would Prospero have become more war like, as Russ moulded it to what his genes were created to do, as well as accept the teachings of the Properine people.

The we have Magnus, Fenris has its rune priests, but is predominantly a warrior culture. So the opposite would be true. Magnus full psychic potential would remain hidden, as the Rune Priests knowledge is restricted to the teachings of Fenris. Perhaps Magnus thirst for knowledge would have led him to learn more, but being restricted to Fenris would have prevented this. Maybe he would have still entered into his pact with Tzeentch, but the Runepriests of Fenris were more grounded and knew the risks.

Would Russ have become the thrall of Tzeentch and suffered the same fate as Magnus, would the Thousand Sons have been the ones sent to destroy the Space Wolves.

Imagine that, Thousand Sons from Fenris

Heh, amusing, but I think that Sanguinius is actually Magnus' loyalist equivalent. I believe he was the most psychically powerful Primarch to remain loyal.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heh, amusing, but I think that Sanguinius is actually Magnus' loyalist equivalent. I believe he was the most psychically powerful Primarch to remain loyal.

I kind of feel like the idea of Magnus as a pariah, a witch, or an undesirable are in complete contrast with Sanguinus being the most beloved and over-all most capable primarch.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heh, amusing, but I think that Sanguinius is actually Magnus' loyalist equivalent. I believe he was the most psychically powerful Primarch to remain loyal.

very interesting... i have very little info on sanguinius, so it will be interesteing to learn more about him as they introduce the blood angels in the HH... i am currently on know no fear

 HillyKarma wrote:


I kind of feel like the idea of Magnus as a pariah, a witch, or an undesirable are in complete contrast with Sanguinus being the most beloved and over-all most capable primarch.

Ah, but that's the important difference between all the Chaos Primarchs and their Loyalist counterparts.

Curze was an outcast loner, Corax flocked with others.

Perturabo was unappreciated. Dorn was loved.

Guilleman was lonely on the other side of the galaxy, Horus was beloved.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 HillyKarma wrote:


I kind of feel like the idea of Magnus as a pariah, a witch, or an undesirable are in complete contrast with Sanguinus being the most beloved and over-all most capable primarch.

Ah, but that's the important difference between all the Chaos Primarchs and their Loyalist counterparts.

Curze was an outcast loner, Corax flocked with others.

Perturabo was unappreciated. Dorn was loved.

Guilleman was lonely on the other side of the galaxy, Horus was beloved.

So what is it that they have in common?

Corax and Curze were both Spec Ops.

Perturabo and Dorn were both Siegemasters

Guilleman and Horus were both strategists and leaders.

Sanguinius and Magnus were both monstrously powerful psykers who were mutants (Sanguinius' wings, Magnus' size and, well, red-ness), but one was personable and outgoing and the other was a shut-in.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Sanguinius and Magnus were both monstrously powerful psykers who were mutants (Sanguinius' wings, Magnus' size and, well, red-ness), but one was personable and outgoing and the other was a shut-in.

Sanguinius only seems to have foresight, which seems to have been shared at varying levels amongst his brothers. Curze with his crippling visions, Lorgar seeing the Emperor come to Colchis with Magnus, and Sanguinius and what he sees. I haven' t seen any other mention of Sanguinuis having other psychic abilities, or at least can't recall them.

Which Primarch was a shut it? I wouldn't say this is true of either Primarch. Sanguinius might have been tolerated more, because he wasn't so steeped in mysticism, but Magnus certainly had friends and admirers and was quite the extrovert. Heck, even the Khan considered him a friend

Ok, so calling Magnus a shut-in might have been a little hyperbolic...

As for Sanguinius' psychic abilities... the Black Rage mean anything to you? It's a direct result of his psychic death-scream embedding itself so deeply into his Legion psyche that it's in the genetic structure of the progenoid glands. He was so significantly psychic that every Blood Angel in the galaxy got caught up in his battle with the Bloodthirsters and Horus and experienced it as if they were personally there.

That's not a mark of someone with 'a little bit of foresight'.