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Boniface wrote:

Markers would be fixed if 1 counter meant increase/decrease by 1

That would put the Tau in the unique position of having no access to 'Ignore Cover' whatsoever (I'm pretty sure all other armies do),

LordBlades wrote:

That would put the Tau in the unique position of having no access to 'Ignore Cover' whatsoever (I'm pretty sure all other armies do),

Dark Eldar certainly don't.

Over 50% of people think that Tau are not cheesy, so Tau are fine how they are.

 vipoid wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

That would put the Tau in the unique position of having no access to 'Ignore Cover' whatsoever (I'm pretty sure all other armies do),

Dark Eldar certainly don't.

You mean besides the farseers and 2 serpents they run in almost every list, right?

Makumba wrote:

You mean besides the farseers and 2 serpents they run in almost every list, right?

Show me their entry in the Dark Eldar codex.

 vipoid wrote:

Makumba wrote:

You mean besides the farseers and 2 serpents they run in almost every list, right?

Show me their entry in the Dark Eldar codex.

While you have a point, Makumba does too. Battle Brothers (of which Tau has none) do equal easy access to Ignore Cover, so my point kinda still stands.

Wait, how would that get rid of Ignores Cover? You can still completely remove a cover save, it just might use up all your counters.

There's also the wargear for the battlesuit commander that gives him the ability to grant it to a unit. Or does everyone want that gone, too? Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with giving it to one unit.

LordBlades wrote:
While you have a point, Makumba does too. Battle Brothers (of which Tau has none) do equal easy access to Ignore Cover, so my point kinda still stands.

Why should we include Battle Brothers?

If Ignores Cover is so important, a book shouldn't need allies to get access to it.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Wait, how would that get rid of Ignores Cover? You can still completely remove a cover save, it just might use up all your counters.

There's also the wargear for the battlesuit commander that gives him the ability to grant it to a unit. Or does everyone want that gone, too? Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with giving it to one unit.

Or you might not hit with enough markerlights to completely ignore a piece of cover (going to ground in ruins is 2+ IIRC needing 5 counters). Dedicating 2-3 units to (maybe) ignore cover for 1 unit seems a bit over the top IMO (an AM army can fit 9 cover ignoring Wyverns for example).

LordBlades wrote:
Or you might not hit with enough markerlights to completely ignore a piece of cover (going to ground in ruins is 2+ IIRC needing 5 counters). Dedicating 2-3 units to (maybe) ignore cover for 1 unit seems a bit over the top IMO (an AM army can fit 9 cover ignoring Wyverns for example).

So, dedicating 2-3 units to removing cover is excessive, but 9 Wyverns isn't?

Also, what if that IG player has Basilisks or Manticores? Vehicles which can't ignore cover.

A Tau player can dedicate markerlights, when needed, to aid those units. However, the IG player will have a lot more trouble giving his vehicles ignore cover - and might not be able to at all.

 Mulletdude wrote:
To be honest, the biggest nerf given to Tau in the recent editions was the inclusion of imperial knights. Take 3-ish against Tau, enjoy the easy win.

Not just Tau. Imperial Knights are an easy win against most things, and in my opinion, should only exist in Apoc games or as a LoW, not a legit army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:
The more I play Tau the more I come to realize people's hatred of Tau and claims of cheesiness have very little to do with how powerful Tau is at a given point but IMO with 2 things:

-Tau are not very fun to play against unless you beat them badly (and maybe not even then). At the most fundamental level, post people line up their toy soldiers to shoot some stuff, assault some stuff and maybe win the game. With Tau that hardly works: if you try to shoot them they either dance in and out of LoS with thrust moves or they simply overpower you by volume and strength of fire. If you try to assault them, most of their stuff is Jet Pack or (in) skimmers so good luck catching them (Deep Strike doesn't work great either due to Interceptor on hard hitting stuff). As far as I can tell, losing to Tau makes people feel their army didn't achieve much throughout the game.

-Options. Even if these options cost, and usually (apart from Riptides which get 2 slots to play with) are always a trade-off (Broadsides for example can get Skyfire OR Interceptor OR FnP OR Whatever), on paper Tau seem to be able to adapt to various stuff better than many other armies (again, purely personal opinion), which attracts jealousy.

I think its way more the first. Tau can be extremely frustrating. The first time I played them, I wanted to give up, because I felt I could not touch them.

I have surrendered to Tau on turn 2 several times. My list had already sustained too much damage to be viable.

LordBlades wrote:

Boniface wrote:

Markers would be fixed if 1 counter meant increase/decrease by 1

That would put the Tau in the unique position of having no access to 'Ignore Cover' whatsoever (I'm pretty sure all other armies do),

Tyranids.

Sure, there's Template weapons, but Tau have those.

rigeld2 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Boniface wrote:

Markers would be fixed if 1 counter meant increase/decrease by 1

That would put the Tau in the unique position of having no access to 'Ignore Cover' whatsoever (I'm pretty sure all other armies do),

Tyranids.

Sure, there's Template weapons, but Tau have those.

Impaler cannon is ignores cover.

pm713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Boniface wrote:

Markers would be fixed if 1 counter meant increase/decrease by 1

That would put the Tau in the unique position of having no access to 'Ignore Cover' whatsoever (I'm pretty sure all other armies do),

Tyranids.

Sure, there's Template weapons, but Tau have those.

Impaler cannon is ignores cover.

Fine - I forgot that one since it's not used much at all anymore.

One weapon on one unit isn't any better than the old decrease by 1 markerlights used to have. While not technically Ignores Cover, it lets one unit ignore most cover.

Balancing against the Serpent Shield shooting isn't right. And aside from that and Grenade Packs (s4 ap4, one blast every other round), what do Craftworlders have that ignores cover?

Aren't all SM ignores cover s4 ap5? Either the TFC or Sternies?

IG's Ignore Cover order scares me, but that seems to be the exception, second only to Tau.

Nids are actually quite up there in Ignores Cover shooting. At mid-S AP4, its scary.

Ignores Cover in small amounts appears to be common. Seems like -1 per counter is about right. Might not do much about Spirit Seers shrouding those Striking Scorpions that went to ground in some ruins, but that unit should be hard to kill.

Yeah, the old markerlights (-1 cover per token) make sense. I would like to bring back the -1Ld per token though.

Bharring wrote:
Nids are actually quite up there in Ignores Cover shooting. At mid-S AP4, its scary.

Ignores Cover in small amounts appears to be common. Seems like -1 per counter is about right. Might not do much about Spirit Seers shrouding those Striking Scorpions that went to ground in some ruins, but that unit should be hard to kill.

Scary? On a unit that isn't used much? It's about as relevant as Grenade Packs IME. Sure, it's higher S but it's on a unit that just isn't brought.
Plus, it's on a BS3 model with 2 shots for 55 points.

Meh, whatever. Have whatever opinions you want.

Been playing as Tau for a while and its quite easy to beat Tau: kill the sources of Markerlights, make our vehicles jink, and then close to CC range. If your army can kill Space Marines the it can kill Tau even better, aside from Riptides. (And on the topic of Riptides, at WS2, I2, a damn combat squad of marines has a better chance in CC with it if you'd remember you have Krak grenades.)

Back on Markerlights, every single infantry model that can shoot one is weaker than a marine and BS3; a 110 point unit of Pathfinders only nets you 5 lights on average. Those 110 points are T3, 5+ only. That's it. They are worse than damn guardsmen. Drones aren't much better; slightly improved T and Armor but only BS2. Sure, that can be improved with a drone controller but then I am dedicated a slot on a suit to that, which is one less weapon I can shoot. Do the math. It costs roughly 45 points, regardless of source, to reliably remove the cover save from one shooting attack. MS3? Yeah, that's a 20 point upgrade to a base T4, 3+ save model without an invuln that I can only take 1 of per detachment. Increae BS? Yeah, 20+ points to do it per point.

You know what I fear? SM bikers. Grav Centurians. Wyverns. Thunderwolf Cav. Wave Serpents. Flying Daemon Princes. Flyrants. Pyskers. Jet-bikes. Dreadknights. Heldrakes. Stormravens. Wraithknights. Smashfucker (really any mobile CC Character). DeathCompany. The 80 hojillion powerklaws orks can bring. LRBT. Poison weapons. Thunderfire cannons. Missile Launchers. Plasma rifles. Melta guns. Units that can close the distance, weather a turn of shooting either by durability or distraction, and then ignore my armor saves/wounds when they hit.

The problem most people have with Tau is they present a different set of problems to solve in a game. Target priority is critical both for and against Tau. Good target priority and some forethought into your strategy will go a long way.

 Mulletdude wrote:
To be honest, the biggest nerf given to Tau in the recent editions was the inclusion of imperial knights. Take 3-ish against Tau, enjoy the easy win.

Is it really that simple?
Tau has high strength weapons to deal with Knights.

Not really enough though. And our melta guys (crisis) get 1-shotted before they can get there.

No player who is any good fears missile launchers. The above Tau poster should play against Tau sometime and see how fast his resources are removed from play.

Martel732 wrote:
No player who is any good fears missile launchers. The above Tau poster should play against Tau sometime and see how fast his resources are removed from play.

Againt IK, not so much. And I'm talking about their battle cannon, which kills crisis in one hit.

Welcome to the party pal. Marine players have dealing ig pie plates for a long time.

And so have tau. I'm just saying that tau v IK, IK usualy win, as tau really aren't that good against heavy armour, they are bet against light-medium.

Natec wrote:
(And on the topic of Riptides, at WS2, I2, a damn combat squad of marines has a better chance in CC with it if you'd remember you have Krak grenades.)

5 attacks, 4 hit, 2 wound, both are saved.
Riptide gets 2 attacks? 1 hits, it wounds, can't be saved. Which one wins?

rigeld2 wrote:

Natec wrote:
(And on the topic of Riptides, at WS2, I2, a damn combat squad of marines has a better chance in CC with it if you'd remember you have Krak grenades.)

5 attacks, 4 hit, 2 wound, both are saved.
Riptide gets 2 attacks? 1 hits, it wounds, can't be saved. Which one wins?

Yep. Even some of the heavy hitting CC units I've seen struggle with Riptides. Thundernators are about the main thing I've seen take it down reliably.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:
To be honest, the biggest nerf given to Tau in the recent editions was the inclusion of imperial knights. Take 3-ish against Tau, enjoy the easy win.

Is it really that simple?
Tau has high strength weapons to deal with Knights.

Tau does have a lot of high strength weapons, but they can't bring enough to deal with those knights that easily. 3+ knights means one has the 3++, and even with a drop melta squad at BS5 with markerlights, that knight will turn around and punch those suits. 6 Shots of melta @ bs5 means 2.083 pens go through the 4++, and that's assuming the suits dropped inside melta range (and side/rear arc). The biggest problem with this is you can only take 3 squads of melta suits and doing so prevents you from taking riptides (non-farsight list, obv).

Hammerheads are even worse at taking down knights. The famed longstrike (BS5 S10 AP1, Tank Hunter) costs 50% of one knight, but on average he does 0.312 pens to the knight.
Railsides are in about the same boat. Assuming the 3 railsides are from a firebase and have 4 markerlights for +2 BS and ignore cover, the 3 rail shots from them only cause 0.446 pens to the knight through his 4++ (gets much worse markerlights or the formation).

The last option for causing meaningful pens to the knight is the riptide with nova charged ion accelerator as part of the firebase formation. Assuming successful nova charge and enough markerlights to get to BS6 (and maybe ignore cover), the blast will likely not get hot and hit the target. This one hit causes on average 0.311 pens that need a 6 to cause more damage (as opposed to the 5's needed on all the other pens).

Even a farsight bomb isn't amazing at dealing with knights. It can have 12 (assuming the raven is part of the 8, not a commander) melta shots, and at BS5 ignore cover, twin linked, tank hunters, will cause 5.671 pens, which is actually fantastic for killing one knight. The only problem is that is only one knight, and it costs 173% of one knight to do this.

The last option Tau have for dealing with knights is missilesides. Again assuming BS5 ignore cover, the 4++ from the knight and front armor, the missilesides 12 shots do 1.782 hull points (again assuming from firebase).

Nothing in the troops or fast attack slot will help take down knights reliably (EMP grenades do exist, and are probably awesome, but not reliable). So yes, the Tau fold to multi-knights. It's the main reason my tau are shelved and I'm playing my blood angels again.

The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

 Jancoran wrote:
The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

Now show me how other armies get the ability to
Shut down flyers
Shut down armor
Shut down invisibility
Shut down cover
Shut down close combat, cause support fire
All in one armybook, and without requiring the psychic phase.

And still have one of the best trooper weapons in the game.

Daemons are broken because of the core rulebook and invisibility. The codex itself isn't too bad, and if the powers were removed/changed, the dex would be fine.
Eldar need an overhaul. Banshees need a buff, WS a nerf, etc etc. But the topic is Tau here.