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A Town Called Malus wrote: A Defiler's battlecannon is AP3 isn't it? The Tau players Broadsides should've been rolling 2+ armour saves, not 4+ cover saves.
It is AP3, but it was the drone that was the closest target so he was taking his either his built-in 4++ or his 4+ cover save from the barricades. He did it just fine. If the drone would have died on the first hit, then he would have been taking 2+ armor saves. It's still scary because a fail instant kills a broadside.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
A Town Called Malus wrote: A Defiler's battlecannon is AP3 isn't it? The Tau players Broadsides should've been rolling 2+ armour saves, not 4+ cover saves.
It is AP3, but it was the drone that was the closest target so he was taking his either his built-in 4++ or his 4+ cover save from the barricades. He did it just fine. If the drone would have died on the first hit, then he would have been taking 2+ armor saves. It's still scary because a fail instant kills a broadside.
Aargh, brain fail. Went back to old wound allocation systems...
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
What if the riptide was forced to buy the 2 shielded missile drones? It would make it more expensive and give the opponent the opportunity to force a morale check... granted, fluff-wise it would be silly, but hey.
samsonite207 wrote: What if the riptide was forced to buy the 2 shielded missile drones? It would make it more expensive and give the opponent the opportunity to force a morale check... granted, fluff-wise it would be silly, but hey.
Whatevs man. I voluntarily run one of those drones with my riptide. Ruins the effectiveness of grav guns. And plus, move through cover goes to the unit so the drone doesn't have to take dangerous terrain checks
Sidstyler wrote: Ugh, here's yet another battle report I've stumbled on that just irritates the crap out of me.
I just want to say, for the record, I'm not trying to insult either of these guys or anything...but look at that table. There's practically nothing in the center, except a ring of barricades (that provide practically no cover). All the terrain is on the sides, and since nothing blocks LOS the Tau player basically has clear lanes of fire right from the start, and will for the entire game. On top of that, the Chaos player makes the really odd decision to deploy pretty much his entire army in the center of the table, apparently banking on those barricades to protect him, and then marches across an open field to the Tau line hiding behind an Aegis. You can probably imagine how the game goes.
Like I've said before, Tau have legitimate issues that should be addressed . But I've seen so many battle reports just like this one that I find it really hard to take complaints seriously sometimes. It really does make it hard to see whether it's the Tau codex to blame or the player.
Saw that one.
God-aweful terrain placement, followed by making what is practically the worst tactical decision possible-"lets send everything through the killzone!", not only he blocked his own path, he was liturally out in the open for easy picking.
You can hear the chaos player's voice in despair as he gets annihilated and does not actually get to play, but in all honestly he DIDNT play to begin with, he just pushed everything forward with zero forethought, planning, manuvers or anything that can be described as strategy.
Too often I've seen people complain on "how OP tau are" after getting decimated, bit when deploying THIS level of tactics, the only way they would win like this is if their own codex was absurdly overpowered.
Given an example I've had against me: he had a land raider filled with inqusition assault troopers (mix of DCA, crusaders, acolythes, prisets, etc) charging up on me, practically alone (some long range shooty squad in the back, and the entire rest in reserves) into no less than 2 railheads and 3 EMP fire warrior squads and two tetras for marking (rest of my stuff DSing), through the middle open ground on turn 1 in all-out assault style deploying on the front, going as far as he could.
He was somewhat surprised that the raider was cracked open and the passengers slaughtered in a turn, but honestly-how could I FAIL at killing them? I didn't even run top-tier units there. but when you practically dish out your dudes as easy kills, they WILL die easy.
Get terrain, USE terrain. its there to mess with your movement, not to sit in the sidelines and look pretty.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
It's not as easy as getting terrain and using terrain. We have a TON of terrain where I play. Just not much of it is LOS blocking. Do you know how useless 5+ cover is for marines much of the time? All it does it buff hordes.
Martel732 wrote: It's not as easy as getting terrain and using terrain. We have a TON of terrain where I play. Just not much of it is LOS blocking. Do you know how useless 5+ cover is for marines much of the time? All it does it buff hordes.
My area got used to running at least one large building to block LOS in the middle and in a corner on each side.
Generally we played with One medium one in the center with two LOS blocking pieces going along either side. That way something can actually move across the board to get to the backfield without taking an entire army's worth of fire.
I can't honestly say what has been going on much in 7th at the FLGS. The 40k community rather dried out and I got maybe 4 games in before setting it down.
Sidstyler wrote: Ugh, here's yet another battle report I've stumbled on that just irritates the crap out of me.
I just want to say, for the record, I'm not trying to insult either of these guys or anything...but look at that table. There's practically nothing in the center, except a ring of barricades (that provide practically no cover). All the terrain is on the sides, and since nothing blocks LOS the Tau player basically has clear lanes of fire right from the start, and will for the entire game. On top of that, the Chaos player makes the really odd decision to deploy pretty much his entire army in the center of the table, apparently banking on those barricades to protect him, and then marches across an open field to the Tau line hiding behind an Aegis. You can probably imagine how the game goes.
Like I've said before, Tau have legitimate issues that should be addressed . But I've seen so many battle reports just like this one that I find it really hard to take complaints seriously sometimes. It really does make it hard to see whether it's the Tau codex to blame or the player.
None of your protests had anything to do with the codex. Just a dumb player and their equally dumb willingness not to set the board up cordially.
Again I repeat: tart making player distinctions and Codex distinctions clear in your mind.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Martel732 wrote: It's not as easy as getting terrain and using terrain. We have a TON of terrain where I play. Just not much of it is LOS blocking. Do you know how useless 5+ cover is for marines much of the time? All it does it buff hordes.
So you don't want to use terrain that will buff hordes but you want to use terrain to buff yourself?
That's about typical, honestly. "Buff Marines, feth everyone else!" Is usually what these kind of threads boil down to no matter what army they're about.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Wait. Now I'm lost. Your terrain doesn't include LOS blocking terrain. And you think the answer isn't to add LOS blocking terrain?
What do you think the answer is then?
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
Savageconvoy wrote: Wait. Now I'm lost. Your terrain doesn't include LOS blocking terrain. And you think the answer isn't to add LOS blocking terrain?
What do you think the answer is then?
No, no. I could have terrain added, but very little to none will be LOS blocking. It's just not available/accepted. Therefore, terrain in my case will not accomplish what everyone claims it will. That's what I'm saying. All it will do is add a cover save which lists like WS spam don't care about, or Tau will ignore.
But it seems like you have the answer, but just can't/won't use it then. Why can't you use LOS blocking terrain? You have a say in what field you play on. At least some would be helpful. Not every model needs to draw LOS to every other model.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
I can't use it because no one with play without their "firing lanes". Plus, the primary local store doesn't have much LOS blocking terrain.
I'm not completely convinced LOS blocking terrain is going to help that much vs WS spam or jump-shoot-jump shenanigans anyway. I think Eldar and Tau are just way too effective for their point costs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 12:53:13
How is Jump shoot jump really a problem? I don't remember it being that big of a concern in 5th.
But I really think you should give LOS blocking terrain a try before just writing off Tau and Eldar as over costed. Try playing where half the army can't support half of the field. It really cuts down on Tau's synergy. It helps CC units that start on the board get across field safely.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
Martel732 wrote: I'm not completely convinced LOS blocking terrain is going to help that much vs WS spam or jump-shoot-jump shenanigans anyway. I think Eldar and Tau are just way too effective for their point costs.
So you're not sure it's worth it, and you don't want to/can't test to see if it's worth it.
Self fulfilling prophecy for the lose. Yes, LoS blocking terrain literally changes the game in all kinds of ways. I now understand why you hold the opinions you do - your meta is horrible and taints your view of everything.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Martel732 wrote: I can't use it because no one with play without their "firing lanes". Plus, the primary local store doesn't have much LOS blocking terrain.
I'm not completely convinced LOS blocking terrain is going to help that much vs WS spam or jump-shoot-jump shenanigans anyway. I think Eldar and Tau are just way too effective for their point costs.
OFC they want their "firing lanes", because it makes it so damn easy for shooting armies to win!
Proper terrain forces them to actually THINK about unit placing, zone control and movement.
Yes, it will also help the JSJ units-but these are the OTHER side of said armies, some units are desigened to be a terrain user, some are desigened to be open field powerhouses. by having proper terrain a mix of the two before needed, making the army not as narrow-minded on doing one thing that has no restrictions and as such exterminate anything with ease.
With more LOS terrain crisis suits will be better, yes. but with no LOS terrain? they just dont use crisis suits, because the "open field" units have superior firepower once they get easy firing lines.
There is a point where there is too much LOS blocking and crisis suits and other JSJ units suddenly become the pieces of "feth this dung", but we are talking on zone mortalis/space hulk levels of LOS blocking here.
As for WS spam, it really helps alot against it too. because half the problem with them is the fact their insane range lets them touch ANYTHING on the map. some LOS terrain-and suddenly not every WS can shoot any unit.
I'm still sure that given it shield's fluff it as supposed to be 6" gun and somehow it became 60" and nobody noticed, but looking at the existing rules-its a huge range gun that ignores cover, with no LOS terrain there is simply no answer to it.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
If I start insisting, I'm going to "that guy". I have, by the way, seen a ton of batreps using the kinds of tables I play on. And with similar results. And I still find it incredibly distasteful that I need specific terrain requirements to compete against Tau/IG/Eldar/Necron gun lines.
There's also the issue that GW has made assault so bad now that most players in my meta have given up on it. Hence, the clamoring for "firing lanes".
"with no LOS terrain there is simply no answer to it."
So I'm not crazy, just hosed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/29 14:34:44
Martel732 wrote: And I still find it incredibly distasteful that I need specific terrain requirements to compete against Tau/IG/Eldar/Necron gun lines.
It's just a fact of life. It's been a fact of life for years (obviously changing the codexes).
There's also the issue that GW has made assault so bad now that most players in my meta have given up on it. Hence, the clamoring for "firing lanes".
You've been like this for a long time - 7th is the only edition that hasn't made clear that you should have LoS blocking terrain. And not having it isn't "firing lanes" it's "planet bowling ball".
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Oh, there wasn't much LOS-blocking terrain in 5th or 6th for me. Originally, the concept was put in place to speed up local tournaments. Then, since people wanted to practice for tournaments, they started insisting on "tournament boards" as the standard. Then the only store that even had a lot of LOS blocking terrain went out of business.
It's funny that they were tabling the old BA in three turns with Taudar in 6th, but adding LOS terrain would be an "unrealistic and unfair advantage for marines that just slows the game down".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 14:43:47
Martel732 wrote: Oh, there wasn't much LOS-blocking terrain in 5th or 6th for me. Originally, the concept was put in place to speed up local tournaments. Then, since people wanted to practice for tournaments, they started insisting on "tournament boards" as the standard. Then the only store that even had a lot of LOS blocking terrain went out of business.
It's funny that they were tabling the old BA in three turns with Taudar in 6th, but adding LOS terrain would be an "unrealistic and unfair advantage for marines that just slows the game down".
How in the hell does it speed up tournaments?
Whatever, I'm done responding to your complaints about this - you know the solution. Just please keep in mind in the future that your experience doesn't match reality - at all.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, there wasn't much LOS-blocking terrain in 5th or 6th for me. Originally, the concept was put in place to speed up local tournaments. Then, since people wanted to practice for tournaments, they started insisting on "tournament boards" as the standard. Then the only store that even had a lot of LOS blocking terrain went out of business.
It's funny that they were tabling the old BA in three turns with Taudar in 6th, but adding LOS terrain would be an "unrealistic and unfair advantage for marines that just slows the game down".
How in the hell does it speed up tournaments?
Whatever, I'm done responding to your complaints about this - you know the solution. Just please keep in mind in the future that your experience doesn't match reality - at all.
There are plenty of complaints about Tau/Eldar even with fancy terrain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 15:18:57
Martel732 wrote: There are plenty of complaints about Tau/Eldar even with fancy terrain.
And most of those complaints are unfounded. With okay terrain I win about as much as I lose with Nids against both.
Does that mean that the Wave Serpent is fine? No, it's overpowered. As in - it should cost more or lose some abilities. That doesn't mean it's an auto-win unit, just that it's above the power curve from where it should be.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
The wise learn to adapt to change 
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
