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xsharkmanx wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
It doesnt need AV. it just needs to be T5 so we can at least ID it with St10 and bolters will wounds on 5s instead of 6s.

Changes to EWO and FNP

T5 are you kidding me? pls look at !!every!! other MC that could be find, T6 to T8 is what you can find so no thats not gonna happen and ID such a bit 200pt modell isnt ok. I agree that the Rip does soak to much damage up but reducing the toughness isnt right, maybe invul to max 4+?

The Imperial Answer wrote:
There are better things to take in the LOW slot than the riptide for Tau. Till FW unveils what the Tau super-heavy ground unit will be, we have to go off the notion that any LOW for the Tau that isn't a character will be a flyer.

Can only agree with that, Tau arnt the race which builds big walker and titans, the only really big models will be flyers/transporter or FW will break with the style tau are meant to be.

Actually some MC's are T5

rigeld2 wrote:

The major difference between T5 and T6 is the ability to ID.

You're not mentioning that Bolters now cause 2x the amount of wounds as before. Heavy Bolters will wound on 4+. Most common weapons will be wounding it more often. In CC it has an already bigger disadvantage to other MC, since it can be ID'd by others and has terrible combat abilities on top of not having fearless or any LD buffs. Reducing T is a huge drawback and I think you're really understating it.

Lets look at bolters
Against T5 it should take about 135 bolter shots to deal 5 unsaved wounds.
At T6 it takes about 270 bolter shots to deal the same number of unsaved wounds.
That is a significant drop in it's resilience to standard infantry weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
I've managed to burn CSM players relying on helldrakes to kill my BA by getting into HTH before he can really cripple me. No such luck with Riptides that start on the table, have basically infinite range and point to marine units and have me pick them up. Playing against Riptides sucks. They are far more effective than FMC, especially now that FMC have to land first, then assault. That gives me the chance to react a bit.

Were these IA Riptides or HBC Riptides? I don't think anyone defends the IA as is. Many of the pro-Riptide people even say that it needs to be nerfed.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The major difference between T5 and T6 is the ability to ID.

You're not mentioning that Bolters now cause 2x the amount of wounds as before. Heavy Bolters will wound on 4+. Most common weapons will be wounding it more often. In CC it has an already bigger disadvantage to other MC, since it can be ID'd by others and has terrible combat abilities on top of not having fearless or any LD buffs. Reducing T is a huge drawback and I think you're really understating it.

Let's be clear - it can only (currently) be ID'd by Force weapons. It doesn't have terrible combat abilities - at least no worse than many other MCs. Its WS is 1 worse than most TMCs. That one difference doesn't matter even a little bit until your opponent is WS5+ - like I said.
Not being Fearless only matters if you lose combat. Full Tac Squad throwing Grenades - 10 attacks, 6.7 hits, 4.49 wounds, less than one wound gets through armor (at T5). 3 attacks back, 1.5 hit, 1.2 wounds, no armor save. Why is your leadership relevant? And that's if they catch you - with an average movement ~7" higher than a Tac Squad it should be difficult for that to happen.

And it should be more vulnerable in CC since it's designed and even in this thread defended as a shooting platform.

Lets look at bolters
Against T5 it should take about 135 bolter shots to deal 5 unsaved wounds.
At T6 it takes about 270 bolter shots to deal the same number of unsaved wounds.
That is a significant drop in it's resilience to standard infantry weapons.

Yup. What a shame. It's less survivable. Yes, it's more than just more vulnerable to ID - I assumed that the vulnerability to small arms increasing was a given and that I wouldnt've have to go into that.
It really only changes for S4-S7 weapons - it means that more than just anti-tank weapons will fire at the Riptide. And that's not a bad thing.

So do you think that will fix the problem?
If you drop it to T5 then you're just ensuring that people would only take the IA and stay at range.

We could remove the IA...

 vipoid wrote:
We could remove the IA...

Exalted, copied, framed and put on my wall. Also, vipoid for president

Always the "into the trash" mentality for fixing a problem.

I suggested it several pages ago and I still stand by it. Swap Ion Accelerator and Ion Cannons. Buffs Hammerheads a bit, and puts the bad gun a more fragile unit (shaken/stun and such) while also nerfing the Riptide. Let it keep the Nova profile for the weapon.

Make it toughness 5 and it'll never see the table. I assume that's what some people want though. Because it will be treated like a vindicator tank. Turn 1 the mandatory S10 weapon will shoot and likely ID it.
That makes the model pointless. If it gets a T nerf the. The cost has to come down to ~120-150 at least because it'll be at best a distraction and likely the first blood option when facing Tau.
Now I'm obviously being fairly silly in that assumption but I can totally see it falling into that role.
Just as a matter of curiosity I wonder how many vindicator tanks get taken. I bet it isn't many.
I honestly think that the riptide is one of the better upgrades for Tau in this edition.
It actually gives us a decent ranged weapon (still not saying it isn't underpriced) on a mobile platform.
I mention the mobile bit because people bitched something chronic about gun lines.
People seriously need to stop telling Tau players it's unfair to have a new model. By all means change the cost and tweak some details but dropping it to T5 is just making it irrelevant IMO.
I hardly think it's the worst thing in the game.

Boniface wrote:
Make it toughness 5 and it'll never see the table. I assume that's what some people want though. Because it will be treated like a vindicator tank. Turn 1 the mandatory S10 weapon will shoot and likely ID it.

That's simply not true. Many armies don't have access to a S10 weapon, and even then there won't be enough to "likely ID it."

That makes the model pointless. If it gets a T nerf the. The cost has to come down to ~120-150 at least because it'll be at best a distraction and likely the first blood option when facing Tau.

There are still many things easier to kill than a T5 Riptide.

Just as a matter of curiosity I wonder how many vindicator tanks get taken. I bet it isn't many.

How many Riptides have a 24" range and can only move 6" and have a 45 degree arc of fire? It's silly to compare the two.

I mention the mobile bit because people bitched something chronic about gun lines.
People seriously need to stop telling Tau players it's unfair to have a new model. By all means change the cost and tweak some details but dropping it to T5 is just making it irrelevant IMO.
I hardly think it's the worst thing in the game.

I never said it's the worst thing in the game. And it doesn't make it irrelevant.

How the feth is it pointless?

Rips can fire a 60" range
Bump up shields to 3++
can benefit from cover better

and besides the world luckiest orbital bombardment shot, most ST10 things are at best 24" or less.

It adds actual play element into a point and click army.

Damnit you ninja!!!!!!

Also i play tau and i have no issue with T5.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
So do you think that will fix the problem?
If you drop it to T5 then you're just ensuring that people would only take the IA and stay at range.

So it'd be different from now... how?

OH! It'd be easier to kill! Gotcha!
(hint, that's literally all I've been saying. Thanks for finally agreeing with me!)

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The major difference between T5 and T6 is the ability to ID.

You're not mentioning that Bolters now cause 2x the amount of wounds as before. Heavy Bolters will wound on 4+. Most common weapons will be wounding it more often. In CC it has an already bigger disadvantage to other MC, since it can be ID'd by others and has terrible combat abilities on top of not having fearless or any LD buffs. Reducing T is a huge drawback and I think you're really understating it.

Lets look at bolters
Against T5 it should take about 135 bolter shots to deal 5 unsaved wounds.
At T6 it takes about 270 bolter shots to deal the same number of unsaved wounds.
That is a significant drop in it's resilience to standard infantry weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
I've managed to burn CSM players relying on helldrakes to kill my BA by getting into HTH before he can really cripple me. No such luck with Riptides that start on the table, have basically infinite range and point to marine units and have me pick them up. Playing against Riptides sucks. They are far more effective than FMC, especially now that FMC have to land first, then assault. That gives me the chance to react a bit.

Were these IA Riptides or HBC Riptides? I don't think anyone defends the IA as is. Many of the pro-Riptide people even say that it needs to be nerfed.

IA, of course. All toughness arguments, etc, don't mean much to me compared to the IA. If the thing can't melt entire squads unfailingly, the other details become secondary to me.

Wait whats wrong with bolters being able to hurt it easier??

40% of the complaints was that it was too tough and can never die

while the other 60% was about the IA

Having bolters in that range in the first place means something has horribly gone wrong already and besides you still have a 2+ so its not even remotely game breaking

rigeld2 wrote:

OH! It'd be easier to kill! Gotcha!
(hint, that's literally all I've been saying. Thanks for finally agreeing with me!)

And you're making the HBC and base Riptide worse when it's not really a problem which is what I've been trying to say. HBC Riptide for it's cost is a fun model and not at all bad. It's fairly balanced against the Dreadknight pre-update in terms of cost/durability.

Have I ever said the IA is fine as it is? No. I just don't like the idea of trying to fix a single gun and making the alternate load out almost useless.

 Desubot wrote:
How the feth is it pointless?

Rips can fire a 60" range
Bump up shields to 3++
can benefit from cover better

and besides the world luckiest orbital bombardment shot, most ST10 things are at best 24" or less.

It adds actual play element into a point and click army.

Damnit you ninja!!!!!!

Also i play tau and i have no issue with T5.

Considering that Tau don't really have guns with a strength below 5, Tau not having trouble dealing with T5 doesn't mean much.

I'll just say that T5 Riptides could make us see more Railgun Hammerheads. 37% chance to ID a Riptide with the 5++, goes down to 18.5% if it has the 3++. Not bad odds if you're going for an alpha strike First Blood whilst also reducing quite a bit of your opponents ranged firepower.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Considering that Tau don't really have guns with a strength below 5, Tau not having trouble dealing with T5 doesn't mean much.

I'll just say that T5 Riptides could make us see more Railgun Hammerheads. 37% chance to ID a Riptide with the 5++, goes down to 18.5% if it has the 3++. Not bad odds if you're going for an alpha strike First Blood whilst also reducing quite a bit of your opponents ranged firepower.

blerh i ment i have no issue with riptides being T5

 Desubot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Considering that Tau don't really have guns with a strength below 5, Tau not having trouble dealing with T5 doesn't mean much.

I'll just say that T5 Riptides could make us see more Railgun Hammerheads. 37% chance to ID a Riptide with the 5++, goes down to 18.5% if it has the 3++. Not bad odds if you're going for an alpha strike First Blood whilst also reducing quite a bit of your opponents ranged firepower.

blerh i ment i have no issue with riptides being T5

Ah.. that makes more sense

The only thing that needs to be changed about the Tau is the cost of the Ion accelerator, raise it to 15-20pts. more Other then the other complaints:

-The Riptide is not to tough to kill, there is plenty in the game that can take it down and just like many other MC's in the game you do it the same way.

-The complaints in regards to Marker Lights are also overdone. If you are having trouble dealing with T3 and T4 models with a 4+ or 5+ save then then you may want to look at your army. Also if they take to many Marker Lights it means their army as a whole will struggle, they can only Laze one target and they are not the only army that has something that ignores cover. That and the points add up for said squads of pathfinders and markerlight drones very quickly.

-The whole "it can improve its save, weapons ect." due to the Generator, guess what it can hurt itself 1/3 of the time not making it as reliable as people make it out to be.

-How the Riptide is undercosted, what is continually failed to be pointed out is that in order to give it its abilities like interceptor, feel no pain ect. you have to pay a pretty decent amount of points with the more optimal builds making it on par as a Wraithknight in regards to points cost.

Overall I think the Tau are still to this day getting an unfair rap and they don't nearly deserve the hate that people make them out to be. A lot of the issues that I have seen and heard can be related to peoples misconceptions and fallout from 6th edition.

Always wondered how a Riptide didn't destroy itself given all of its weapons have "Gets Hot!" when over-charged

 gmaleron wrote:

-How the Riptide is undercosted, what is continually failed to be pointed out is that in order to give it its abilities like interceptor, feel no pain ect. you have to pay a pretty decent amount of points with the more optimal builds making it on par as a Wraithknight in regards to points cost.

It was pointed out quite early on.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Always wondered how a Riptide didn't destroy itself given all of its weapons have "Gets Hot!" when over-charged

Marker light bump, eldar divination when it was a thing, attached hq with twinlink when it was a thing, and ammo dumps. (i think there was a way to get it PE as well but i dont recall)

In fact that is a trait most MC share, look at DP and Dreadknights, even the Tyranid MCs.

 Desubot wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

-How the Riptide is undercosted, what is continually failed to be pointed out is that in order to give it its abilities like interceptor, feel no pain ect. you have to pay a pretty decent amount of points with the more optimal builds making it on par as a Wraithknight in regards to points cost.

It was pointed out quite early on.

Ah must have missed that, at work on my phone so a little distracted I must admit

A lot of people have been complaining about the riptide's toughness, and how hard it is too kill.
I don't have a normal riptide, but I do have a Y'vahara version (I know I'm such a dick, please move on)
Now the Y'vahara only has 4 wounds with a 5++ and 4++ within 12", and I have consistently had it die to one unit's small arms fire each time I've played(that said, its not hit the table much)
So my point is, while reducing a riptide to T5 isn't as drastic as what they did to the Y'vahara, it would make it less survivable, and a less viable option, and the mob would go yay! Now we can just roftl stomp tau!!!
So my final point is, just generally giving armies the nerf bat when there's something you don't like is a gak way of going about things, if you'll pardon my French.

I can shoot my entire SM army at it, and do maybe 2 wounds.

Most anti-tank can't chew through 5hp.
Most anti-MC can't touch a 2+.

Its the sweet spot of 'FU' to a TAC list.

Bharring wrote:
I can shoot my entire SM army at it, and do maybe 2 wounds.

Most anti-tank can't chew through 5hp.
Most anti-MC can't touch a 2+.

Its the sweet spot of 'FU' to a TAC list.

Have you ever heard of Grav Guns or Grav Cannons? They are the instant FU and counter to Riptides and allow Marine armies to have a very easy counter to the Riptide. Also in regards to anti-tank Lascannons will do the job very nicely as will Drop Pod armies with the right amount of Plasma, melta ect. TAC armies have plenty to counter Riptides.

If you dont have your 3+ invul i think that you need 8 Melter/laskanons hits to bring a Rip down or 10 Plasmahits. Grav is the same like melta/lasca. There are marinee out there with a lot of special weapons that can bring a rip in 1-2 rounds down. Two Bikes with melta/plasma/grav and a trike with multimelta are an example for that. fast, durable and shoot a lot of shots that really hurt Rips. One of the elitechoice can drobpod and could carry 2 plasma/melta/grav + a combiweapon, that is also an option but cause of early warningshould be used carefully. Centurions with gravcannons are also good, so i would say, that marines have a good range of choices to shoot a rip down and i didnt mentioned the ways for example assaulttermis would deal with him in CC.
Other armys have poisen, there own MCs, CC. There is always a way to fight a rip.
I dont say that it is easy and for orcs it is really hard because of the missmatch and if there is more than one rip it will be harder again but thats why i only play one. I dont want to punch my opponents to the one and only list they can play against me.

I suppose I need to get with the times. Not a fan of bikes, and my chapter doesn't have Cents, so Grav isn't an option, but I suppose that's my problem. Add to that the Tide killing any of my Marines it wants each round, and it can be painful. 2+/5++ 5wounds seems too much for so much killy.

Tac termies are easily APed by Tau, and Assault termies usually don't last long in range of Fire warriors. Combine that with catching a jumpjet MC with 60" range with a unit that only moves 6", and you can't catch or corner it by t7.

Poison, in most forms, is not ap2, and so isn't that scary to a riptide.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
A lot of people have been complaining about the riptide's toughness, and how hard it is too kill.
I don't have a normal riptide, but I do have a Y'vahara version (I know I'm such a dick, please move on)
Now the Y'vahara only has 4 wounds with a 5++ and 4++ within 12", and I have consistently had it die to one unit's small arms fire each time I've played(that said, its not hit the table much)
So my point is, while reducing a riptide to T5 isn't as drastic as what they did to the Y'vahara, it would make it less survivable, and a less viable option, and the mob would go yay! Now we can just roftl stomp tau!!!
So my final point is, just generally giving armies the nerf bat when there's something you don't like is a gak way of going about things, if you'll pardon my French.

Wow exactly what kinda small arms fire made you fail 4 2+ saves?
t5 wouldnt drastically change gak. besides possibiily people taking more hammerheads which isnt a bad thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I suppose I need to get with the times. Not a fan of bikes, and my chapter doesn't have Cents, so Grav isn't an option, but I suppose that's my problem. Add to that the Tide killing any of my Marines it wants each round, and it can be painful. 2+/5++ 5wounds seems too much for so much killy.

Tac termies are easily APed by Tau, and Assault termies usually don't last long in range of Fire warriors. Combine that with catching a jumpjet MC with 60" range with a unit that only moves 6", and you can't catch or corner it by t7.

Poison, in most forms, is not ap2, and so isn't that scary to a riptide.

Honestly the good old land raider also works well since at best they have ST9 ordnance or a butt load of gets hot glance attempts (and i believe they no longer can get Tank hunter besides the really pricy formation) and by the time they can use the melta you are in CC range. run up 12 every turn and you can catch them. not everyone rolls 48" on there nova jumps. (wait 4d6 right? its been a while)

Bharring wrote:
I suppose I need to get with the times. Not a fan of bikes, and my chapter doesn't have Cents, so Grav isn't an option, but I suppose that's my problem. Add to that the Tide killing any of my Marines it wants each round, and it can be painful. 2+/5++ 5wounds seems too much for so much killy.

Tac termies are easily APed by Tau, and Assault termies usually don't last long in range of Fire warriors. Combine that with catching a jumpjet MC with 60" range with a unit that only moves 6", and you can't catch or corner it by t7.

Poison, in most forms, is not ap2, and so isn't that scary to a riptide.

In all fairness, termies are pretty bad and overcosted, it's not really a Tau issue.

 gmaleron wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I can shoot my entire SM army at it, and do maybe 2 wounds.

Most anti-tank can't chew through 5hp.
Most anti-MC can't touch a 2+.

Its the sweet spot of 'FU' to a TAC list.

Have you ever heard of Grav Guns or Grav Cannons? They are the instant FU and counter to Riptides and allow Marine armies to have a very easy counter to the Riptide. Also in regards to anti-tank Lascannons will do the job very nicely as will Drop Pod armies with the right amount of Plasma, melta ect. TAC armies have plenty to counter Riptides.

Marines never win that firepower race. The Riptide can delete entire squads at a time.