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If Imperial players are REALLY going after the Heavy Burst Cannon saying its overpowered...I cant stop laughing are you serious?!

 gmaleron wrote:
If Imperial players are REALLY going after the Heavy Burst Cannon saying its overpowered...I cant stop laughing are you serious?!

Where did someone say that? Or are you imagining things?

Did this thread go full ham within the last 3 hours or something?

I had to reread it (at work and a little distracted) and misinterpreted what was being said, that's my bad. Then again its not out of place considering that all the Riptide haters wont stop complaining until its about 100pts. more expensive and cant have an AP2 weapon...

 Desubot wrote:
Did this thread go full ham within the last 3 hours or something?

Just the typical Bias that seems to surround the Tau and Riptide and general, not to sound like an @$$ but complaining about a unit that is not overpowered is getting worn out.

 Desubot wrote:
Did this thread go full ham within the last 3 hours or something?

We had this with the Tactical thread, and now in the Marines VS Space Marines, and it never ends well... One time a mod even stopped it. But that's when passionate people get together I guess.

Bharring wrote:
So Cents or Bikes to kill Rippy, or just eat squad deletions every round?
Plus yeah, Broadsides are a thing. The materials that Tau make their armour from is, when regarding weight to protection ratio, better than that which Space Marine power armour is made out of. So it really wouldn't make sense from a fluff standpoint for the Riptide to have an inferior save to space marine centurions or terminators, considering how big it is, how heavy it is and how much of that mass will be armour.

Phoenix lords have a 2+, Wraithknight being the biggest non titan on the game has a 3+, your logic doesn't apply. Both the wraithlord and the wraithknight have no inv by default, the wraithlord doesn't even have a way to get one. Because they are T8 and it is a way to compensate for it. The riptide can have a 2+, 3++, FNP. There is just no way to hurt this thing, all its sides are covered. Plus great mobility and worst of all, CHEAP, too cheap, waaaaaaay too cheap.

rigeld2 wrote:

Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...

Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.

Over a 6 turn game, Nova will fail twice and from those two fails (assuming the Riptide has FNP) it will suffer 1.33 wounds.

Then on each of the 4 turns it has passed Nova and fired a nova-charged HBC it will, on average, get 2 rolls of Hot!

So now we have 8 wounds, 2+ armour then 5+ FNP which gives us another 0.88 wounds.

So a Riptide with FNP will, on average, take 2.22 wounds over a 6 turn game if it is attempting to nova charge its HBC every turn.

If the HBC Riptide doesn't have FNP (ie it's going Skyfire and Interceptor, instead, to try and do anti-air) then, over 6 turns, it would take 3.33 wounds combined from gets hot and failing the Nova Charge (2 from Nova failing, then an extra 1.33 from 8 gets hot! followed by 2+ armour).

Arnais wrote:
Phoenix lords have a 2+, Wraithknight being the biggest non titan on the game has a 3+, your logic doesn't apply. Both the wraithlord and the wraithknight have no inv by default, the wraithlord doesn't even have a way to get one. Because they are T8 and it is a way to compensate for it. The riptide can have a 2+, 3++, FNP. There is just no way to hurt this thing, all its aspects are covered. Plus great mobility and worst of all, CHEAP, too cheap, waaaaaaay to cheap.

Again way to ignore that the 3++ is not an automatic thing (fails 1/3 of the time) and it is NOT cheap as in order to give it FNP and other upgrades it is often up there in terms of points cost as a base Wraithknight (FNP, Intercepor and Pilot Array is the exact cost of a Base Wraithknight). I can agree some things need a slight point change but you are CLEARLY exaggerating. And lets cover what the Wraithknight gets compared to the Riptide:

-Can move 12inches without having to rely on random 2 D6 roll, that lone makes it more maneuverable
-Can be buffed by Psychic Powers or even cast them (in case of Wraithlord)
-Can Twin-Link ALL of its weapons by firing one
-Has a S10 AP2 weapon that if it rolls a 6 to wound the WHOLE MODEL dies
-Can get Battle Focus making it even more maneuverable

 The Wise Dane wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Sad Panda wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
On the issue of the riptide, how much AA does that thing even have ?

Well, it can buy upgrades for optional skyfire or interceptor or both. It uses all its regular weapons otherwise.

Don't really see it threatening flyers unless there is something I am missing.

You're missing something. I'm not sure what but an AV12 (at most) vehicle should be scared of S7 weapons, or mass S6. Or Melta (which the Riptide has)

That's a good point, actually - what about the Riptide and all its extra weaponry, let alone the Missile Drones? Shouldn't we consider all these things (Most likely IA, the Nova Reactor, Secondary Weaponry, Drones and various upgrades) as well when judging the Riptide?

Why would you take drones on a Riptide since a dead drone forces a Ld check?

I'm pretty sure someone did accuse the riptide of have 3++ available freely.

Schrodinger's Riptide is common. he has the IA, EWO, VT and stims (despite the setting being impossibe), and still costs the base 185 points, he also have all NOVA features active, at all times.




As for hammerheads-they ARE rubbish.
And I say that as someone that takes at least 2 hammerheads to every game, sometimes 3, because I like their aesthetics and style.

A single slug railgun is not reliable. its awesome when it hits, pens and explodes-but it fails me more often than not. (odds to instagib AV13 are once per 6.75 shots, assuming no cover, invul or whatnot that provides further protection, and not snap-shooting for any reason. even against AV10 is a mere once every 4.5 shots!) its simply not enough on a tank with a single shot that relies on instagibbing-as it cannot kill by hullpoints in any trustable timeframe even the cheapest rhino.
In short, its failing at killing tanks properly, and another anti-tank unit is required anyway even if you field 3 railheads.
Submmunition is only effective against sub-marine troopers, and these can be handled by alot of other stuff. they rarely gets their points back even against my friend's necrons and IG, who on paper provide the perfect target with lots of tanks and low armor troopers (the necron likes cryptek spam and warriors for cheaper troops)
Subs make a good backup when there are no tanks, but its NOT a primary designation worthy of a tank. its a backup option to a weapon that already fails its main purpose when said purpose is not even available.

The ion cannon is not useful against tanks, and is practically a MEQ/MC killer. problem is MCs are often either flying or featuring 2+ (or having T8 like wraithknight) making his "mc hunter" status not actually work, and MEQ killing is not exactly hard as even in the tau codex you got multiple units competing that title, along with every TEQ killer (IAtides and plasma suits for example) who can kill MEQ just as well, or even just peppering them with shots.

Both main cannons on the hammerheads do NOT get you anything done especially well that cannot be easily achieved by other units, often better.
They are not cheap enough to be considered budget choices, they are not tough enough to be considered a "durability choice" as they become paperweight if they jink, they are not fast enough to be considered a "mobile platform" opposed to broadsides, and are generally just not enough. in any context.
Their only asset is their ungodly range, an assent that is completely irrelevant on your 40k table because its not big enough, and deployment distance between armies is often half or less their range anyway.

In short, even if you remove the riptide from the game entirely, the hammerhead has NO place in serious lists. a single longstrike railhead is to be taken at best as longstrike improves its reliability by far with added BS and tank hunter, and even he is questionable.
Hammerheads nowdays are not good. and honestly they never were good. they are awesome thematically, and on the apoc table when 72" actually means anything they have some value, but on the regular table they are just poor choices no matter how you look at them.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...

Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.

Over a 6 turn game, Nova will fail twice and from those two fails (assuming the Riptide has FNP) it will suffer 1.33 wounds.

Then on each of the 4 turns it has passed Nova and fired a nova-charged HBC it will, on average, get 2 rolls of Hot!

So now we have 8 wounds, 2+ armour then 5+ FNP which gives us another 0.88 wounds.

So a Riptide with FNP will, on average, take 2.22 wounds over a 6 turn game if it is attempting to nova charge its HBC every turn.

If the HBC Riptide doesn't have FNP (ie it's going Skyfire and Intercept) then, over 6 turns, it would take 3.33 wounds combined from gets hot and failing the Nova Charge.

Thank you for explaining. Your original statement wasn't clear you were including the novas.
You also failed to explain "negligible".

rigeld2 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Still missed it. I don't mean compare the units, I mean people say 2+ is rubbish on something's but not others. That was it. My point was 2+ is 2+ all the time. The same tactic applies just the delivery method is different. Termies die to weight of fire, so will a riptide.

Sure - so will a Wraithknight. That's a a silly statement, however, when the weight of fire most armies have isn't very effective against it.
A 2+ on one model is not always the same as a 2+ on another model. A 2+ on a Grot, for example, wouldn't be worth much because it's so easy to generate wounds on them. A 2+ on a Riptide is valuable because it's harder to generate wounds.

That means 2 chances at missing. Aka I didn't get hot but I scattered and missed or I got hot had to save a wound (no biggy) but now my riptide is doing nothing. Pity I didn't nova for something good/different. Point is one can't have it all ways. It's a factor that comes into it. Nova is before shooting so it is possible to waste a nova charge or ability for no gain.

Yes, it's possible to miss. Just like any other Gets Hot weapon. Plasma Cannons can Get Hot and scatter too!
My point is saying that it can miss and Get Hot is just putting emphasis on Gets Hot - when it's a small chance of it happening.

I didn't mean you. I meant generally people always say yes but 3++, which is just a lie. 3++ is sometimes but a risk.

So you brought up the 3++ as if anyone in the thread was saying they always have it? O.o

I think it's just the medium of communication combined with the nuances of English and all that. You didn't so much ignore them as misunderstand my meaning. I'm happy to leave some of these points, I disagree about tanks, I think they're rubbish all the time, but that's just my opinion.

So you agree I didn't ignore anything? Because you originally said that I did.
And right now Hammerheads are rubbish because there's no reason to take them - the Riptide is harder to kill and has better firepower. Change one of those facts and poof - the Hammerhead becomes attractive.
Note that I said the Riptide is harder to kill; not that the Hammerhead is easy to kill.

Lol. I'm going to leave it as this: I'm defending the riptide because I don't think it's a completely broken just needs some amendment. My points still stand even if we disagree.

General comment.

One has to factor all the points in to get a true picture of the unit.

A riptide has the following traits.
Ws2
Bs3
S6
T6
W5
I2
A3
Ld9
Sv2+/5++

It moves 6"
I can jump 2-12"
It is freaking big (LoS and cover)
It can nova but has a risk to wound (no saves) about 1/3 of the time
It can take a HBC which gives 36" S6 ap4 x8 can be nova but that has it's own risks.
It can take an IA which gives 3x S7 ap2 shots OR a pie plate at S8 ap2 which can get hot (counts as miss and possible wound) or can scatter and miss or hit. Nova too but really who is gonna bother for the most part.
Has a second weapon that varies but usually means getting close.

So in combat (as an example) it can be overrun instantly.
It has saves no different to a terminator, therefore if you drown it in wounds from weapons it's going to fail just as many saves. It is therefore as susceptible to Ap2 weapons as a terminator, 5++ doesn't mean much.
Feel no pain is an option that costs 35 points and I still think 5+ isn't very good.
Interceptor is cheap but means you have to hit the target with the same weapon detailed above. Therefore scattering onto own troops is possible, and it might get hot which means miss. Blasts can't be placed over friendly troops so it can't be used against things in close.

Point is it's not the Swiss army nuke people think it is.

Make the overcharge one use only.

rigeld2 wrote:

Thank you for explaining. Your original statement wasn't clear you were including the novas.
You also failed to explain "negligible".

I was just clearing up the maths

Boomwolf made the original post about the damage of the HBC which you responded to

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Thank you for explaining. Your original statement wasn't clear you were including the novas.
You also failed to explain "negligible".

I was just clearing up the maths

Boomwolf made the original post about the damage of the HBC which you responded to

And I believe the negligible comment was referring to the Riptide against the IK I believe since S6 tends to have very poor odds of glancing AV13. Still keep hoping to roll a 7 some time.
And I still have no idea how the side facing really works on the thing due to it's width.

Good points Boniface lets compare it the Dreadknight shall we, since of course its Imperial its NOT overpowered:

-WS: 5
-BS:4
-S:6/10
-T:6
-W:4
-I:4
-A:3/4
-LD:10
-SV: 2+ 5++

Other things of note:

-Personal Teleporter: Makes it a Jump infantry meaning it moves 12 inches all the time, (already more maneuverable then the Riptide) and on top of that can make a 30 inch Shunt move once per game.

-Gatling Scilencer: S4 AP- Range: 24 Inches, Force. Not that scary except oh wait, get off a Psychic power and every one of these shots cause INSTANT DEATH!

-Is much Cheaper then a Riptide, 50pts. cheaper when compared to boths BASE costs and even with the above 2 upgrades its only 10pts. more then the base Riptide and lo and behold not only is it better in close combat, more maneuverable, has a higher strength and can cause instant death.

If what some of you are saying about the Riptide needs to be changed then clearly based on your arguments the same could be and should be said about the Dreadknight.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
HBC is decent at AA. Still less than an annibarge even with skyfire though unless it passed a NOVA for it.
Ion isn't even a serious threat assuming he bought both skyfire and interceptor and these are conflicting upgrades that block out fnp if you want both.

Why isn't it a threat?

Because its 3 BS3 S7 shots. odds are nothing will happen even if you are AV10 and do not jink. on average it will hit 1.5 times, of them 0.25 will glance, 0.75 will pen and 0.5 will whiff. a single hullpoint and perhaps a damage result. not worth jinking over.
If you are AV11 or got some other defensive boost (save for example) its even less likely to harm you.
its therefor not a threat.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And that overcharged HBC is 12 gets hot shots. It average it's 0.33 wounds from that alone.
HBC riptide that tries to overcharge every turn deals on average 3.33 select wounds in a game. And if he doesn't, he deals neglectible damage.

Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...

Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.

I don't know how you "proved", but as stated-an average game lasts 6 turns.
Of them 2 will be NOVA fails, 2 wounds here.
4 will bet 12 shots of getting hot, of them 2 will get a 1, meanings 0.33 will hurt-4*0.33=1.33
1.33+2=3.33

And before you go "BUT FNP", FnP calculations are silly and you are doing pointless work. just ignore them and think of the FnP ability as a 50% increase in base W count and it will save you a lot of work. (so a FnP riptide as 7.5 effective wounds, and no FnP for the same math results)
Its still doing over a third of its own wounds to itself over a game. with the no-too-cheap FnP upgrade, and with firepower not as amazing as some would thing (basically 3 assault canons at BS3 whn nova works, and 2 non-rendeing ones when it doesnt)
Over a game its 48 S6AP4 rending shots and 16 S6AP4 shots, at BS 3 meaning half are going to miss, and not only you cannot control when the weaker profile shots up-you cannot predict it either.
Its not amazing firepower-and this is under the assumption that you leave it alone all game long and let it shoot-if you as much as come close to it with a semi-decent CC unit you WILL be disruption its shooting at least partly, and a shown it will hurt itself enough that its clearly within the killable range of ranged weaponry anyway, even if it did take FnP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The "negligble" was referring to not overcharging the HBC

Under the assumption the HBC never overcharges, its less destructive than a dev squad with heavy bolters even when you count the secondary gun too (probably SMS)
And HB devs are wildly considered worthless, and only worth even considering in IF armies. (bolter experts) where even there they are not very hot.

Savageconvoy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Thank you for explaining. Your original statement wasn't clear you were including the novas.
You also failed to explain "negligible".

I was just clearing up the maths

Boomwolf made the original post about the damage of the HBC which you responded to

And I believe the negligible comment was referring to the Riptide against the IK I believe since S6 tends to have very poor odds of glancing AV13. Still keep hoping to roll a 7 some time.
And I still have no idea how the side facing really works on the thing due to it's width.

Since the discussion was about AA and I'm pretty sure IKs don't fly...

gmaleron wrote:Good points Boniface lets compare it the Dreadknight shall we, since of course its Imperial its NOT overpowered:

Someone said that? WHERE?!

-WS: +3
-BS:+1
-S:=
-T:=
-W:-1
-I:+2
-A:=
-LD:+1
-SV: 2+ 5++

Overall pretty similar. All else being equal the DK should cost more.

-Personal Teleporter: Makes it a Jump infantry meaning it moves 12 inches all the time, (already more maneuverable then the Riptide) and on top of that can make a 30 inch Shunt move once per game.

12 inches all the time is more maneuverable than an average of 13 to a max of 24 inches each turn, with the ability to jump that up to an average of 20 inches a turn? (not that anyone Novas for jump movement, but it's possible)

-Gatling Scilencer: S4 AP- Range: 24 Inches, Force. Not that scary except oh wait, get off a Psychic power and every one of these shots cause INSTANT DEATH!

A 24 inch range is very limited. It's S4 so even if it causes Instant Death it has to cause a wound first. And it's AP- meaning you get normal armor saves from it.
It's a good, balanced weapon. Similar to the HBC.

-Is much Cheaper then a Riptide, 50pts. cheaper when compared to boths BASE costs and even with the above 2 upgrades its only 10pts. more then the base Riptide and lo and behold not only is it better in close combat, more maneuverable, has a higher strength and can cause instant death.

Yes, it's better in close combat - it should be (the whole Tau suck in CC thing). It isn't more maneuverable. It has the same Strength (except in CC).

If what some of you are saying about the Riptide needs to be changed then clearly based on your arguments the same could be and should be said about the Dreadknight.

Nope. And I've explained why. But clearly I'm an Impy Tau hater, despite solely playing Tyranids.

Ive said it before, Ill say it again. The best way to nerf Tau yet make them more Lore dependent and actually fit into the new Codecies (Alla Orks) is to make a Cast System much like Chapter tactics for them.

Aside from that, and having certain units becoming troops dependent / elite choices depending on your HQ from X Cast, the only other way to Balance Tau is to overhaul the Riptide, Overhaul Fire Warriors and Balance out their Markerlights rules.

One such method, being that Markerlights can no longer remove Cover Saves, they may only be used to increase BS. Possibly adding a Twin Linked effect at 3 Marker Light Tokens. Fire Warriors need Str 4 Weapons. Str 5 on something that prominent destroys too much of the basic core of the game on a model that is supposed to be a basic Troop choice... If Fire Warriors were given standard Bolter fire arms (str 4) with ap 5 at the range they had, I'd be alrighty with my currently shelved 11k Tau army... But every time I look at them and remember how easy it is to play even a BAD list with them, and still annihilate my veteran opponents, I cannot look at them as anything but grim-cheese to bring to a game, friendly or competitive.

Riptides are under costed, as much of the community agree on. However their Over Charged and Nova Charges need to be changed as well from my point of view. It only takes 1 lucky Direct Hit from a Nova Charged Large Blasted to wipe out an entire squad of Terminators. Not to mention the amount of Fire Power they can simply bring with the high intensity amount of shots they can field for the cost they currently are. If base, the Riptide was adjusted by 25-30 points, I'd be fine with it. The main reason I dont field them anymore, is because of their 2+ armor save however. The fact this "MECHANICAL" monstrosity is even considered a Monstrous Creature, baffles my mind both lore wise and game play wise. Tau for the better part of all existence, couldnt manufacture large mechanical weapons / bipedal tanks due to their Technologies (Lore wise) requiring a great deal of resources, which for the Tau, are extremely difficult to acquire due to how small of the galaxy they currently control. Lore aside, the damn thing should be a bloody Vehicle. AV14 front 12 side and 11 back. There is no reason this thing should have both T6, a 2+ save, have access to any form of FNP and be able to carry around enough fire power to table opponents during its first shooting phase. I hate my Riptides, and I spent a lot of time painting them.... The fact I see them as disgusting monstrosities brought to my beloved Tau, makes me pine for a time when playing Tau was actually considered difficult. Where if you WON with Tau, it was because you were a good General and not some "Sit back and relax while you blast your opponents off the board, counting how many turns it takes to wipe them" Quasimodo.

This also comes from a player who has played Eldar and realizes how ridiculous shooting in 40k has actually become. I have also shelved my nearly 3k Points of Eldar I now keep at my Cousins, possibly indefinitely simply because of the Wave Serpent. I could go about out right nerfing the damn thing in custom rules, but where does it stop after that? Why bother. Ill just keep playing my Daemons. The one army I actually enjoy playing now with Summoning from the Maelefic Tree bringing my every joy as a Daemons fan into fruition. Now if only they could Fix Daemon Princes from their eternal Sadness of being T5, with only 4 Wounds.

I always find it interesting who takes personal affront in these threads.

rigeld2 wrote:

Since the discussion was about AA and I'm pretty sure IKs don't fly...

His post was two parts. The first part addressed against flyers and the second part was talking about failed Nova. I think it was referencing the IK discussion but at best it's about the damage output in general. Which even that at BS3 it's getting 8 S6 shots (why would you buff a HBC that failed to Nova). Against MEQ it's getting 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 failed saves. That is less than stellar on a nearly 200 point platform.

A 24 inch range is very limited.

But it's on a unit that can jump 12 inches. So really it's 36" range isn't it? And that is pretty significant considering the actual size of the table.

 BoomWolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
HBC is decent at AA. Still less than an annibarge even with skyfire though unless it passed a NOVA for it.
Ion isn't even a serious threat assuming he bought both skyfire and interceptor and these are conflicting upgrades that block out fnp if you want both.

Why isn't it a threat?

Because its 3 BS3 S7 shots. odds are nothing will happen even if you are AV10 and do not jink. on average it will hit 1.5 times, of them 0.25 will glance, 0.75 will pen and 0.5 will whiff. a single hullpoint and perhaps a damage result. not worth jinking over.
If you are AV11 or got some other defensive boost (save for example) its even less likely to harm you.
its therefor not a threat.

And you ignored the Fusion Blasters. And if losing 2/3 of your hull points and potentially dying isn't a threat... I'm not sure how to respond to that.

And before you go "BUT FNP", FnP calculations are silly and you are doing pointless work. just ignore them and think of the FnP ability as a 50% increase in base W count and it will save you a lot of work. (so a FnP riptide as 7.5 effective wounds, and no FnP for the same math results)

Um. No they're not? Why are they silly? And why are you giving a 50% W increase instead of 33% because that's what FNP is?

Its still doing over a third of its own wounds to itself over a game. with the no-too-cheap FnP upgrade, and with firepower not as amazing as some would thing (basically 3 assault canons at BS3 whn nova works, and 2 non-rendeing ones when it doesnt)

Plus the other gun. I'm not sure how that's negligible.

Over a game its 48 S6AP4 rending shots and 16 S6AP4 shots, at BS 3 meaning half are going to miss, and not only you cannot control when the weaker profile shots up-you cannot predict it either.
Its not amazing firepower-and this is under the assumption that you leave it alone all game long and let it shoot-if you as much as come close to it with a semi-decent CC unit you WILL be disruption its shooting at least partly, and a shown it will hurt itself enough that its clearly within the killable range of ranged weaponry anyway, even if it did take FnP.

Wait - shots can miss? nowai.

The "negligble" was referring to not overcharging the HBC

Under the assumption the HBC never overcharges, its less destructive than a dev squad with heavy bolters even when you count the secondary gun too (probably SMS)
And HB devs are wildly considered worthless, and only worth even considering in IF armies. (bolter experts) where even there they are not very hot.

Partially because HB devs have to stand still to get any output at all. Maybe, just maybe, you should look at more than just damage output? Because 8 S6 shots isn't negligible. Carnifexes get 12 at the same BS (Yes, twin-linked) and are feared for it. And yours even has AP.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ive said it before, Ill say it again. The best way to nerf Tau yet make them more Lore dependent and actually fit into the new Codecies (Alla Orks) is to make a Cast System much like Chapter tactics for them.

Aside from that, and having certain units becoming troops dependent / elite choices depending on your HQ from X Cast, the only other way to Balance Tau is to overhaul the Riptide, Overhaul Fire Warriors and Balance out their Markerlights rules.

One such method, being that Markerlights can no longer remove Cover Saves, they may only be used to increase BS. Possibly adding a Twin Linked effect at 3 Marker Light Tokens. Fire Warriors need Str 4 Weapons. Str 5 on something that prominent destroys too much of the basic core of the game on a model that is supposed to be a basic Troop choice... If Fire Warriors were given standard Bolter fire arms (str 4) with ap 5 at the range they had, I'd be alrighty with my currently shelved 11k Tau army... But every time I look at them and remember how easy it is to play even a BAD list with them, and still annihilate my veteran opponents, I cannot look at them as anything but grim-cheese to bring to a game, friendly or competitive.

Pulse Rifles have always been S5, haven't they? They were in the previous two books and weren't a problem in the previous two books so why do they suddenly need to lose a point of strength?

And again, Markerlights have always been able to influence cover saves. Switch it back to its previous 1 mark = -1 to cover save system rather than a flat 2 marks = no cover save and, from what I've seen here, most of the complaints go away.

Oh, and can we switch firing Seeker Missiles by markerlight back to how it was, too? Having to fire them at the same target as the vehicle carrying them is against the fluff in so many ways.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

One such method, being that Markerlights can no longer remove Cover Saves

So remove one of the most iconic powers Tau have

Fire Warriors need Str 4 Weapons. Str 5 on something that prominent destroys too much of the basic core of the game on a model that is supposed to be a basic Troop choice

And take away their standard iconic gun which is very strong in the fluff?

No offense but these are terrible ideas and really break a lot of what Tau have to keep them seperate from other armies. You want to make them IG vets with bolters and no special weapons.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

One such method, being that Markerlights can no longer remove Cover Saves

So remove one of the most iconic powers Tau have

Fire Warriors need Str 4 Weapons. Str 5 on something that prominent destroys too much of the basic core of the game on a model that is supposed to be a basic Troop choice

And take away their standard iconic gun which is very strong in the fluff?

No offense but these are terrible ideas and really break a lot of what Tau have to keep them seperate from other armies. You want to make them IG vets with bolters and no special weapons.

IG vets with worse ballistic skill.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ive said it before, Ill say it again. The best way to nerf Tau yet make them more Lore dependent and actually fit into the new Codecies (Alla Orks) is to make a Cast System much like Chapter tactics for them.

Aside from that, and having certain units becoming troops dependent / elite choices depending on your HQ from X Cast, the only other way to Balance Tau is to overhaul the Riptide, Overhaul Fire Warriors and Balance out their Markerlights rules.

One such method, being that Markerlights can no longer remove Cover Saves, they may only be used to increase BS. Possibly adding a Twin Linked effect at 3 Marker Light Tokens. Fire Warriors need Str 4 Weapons. Str 5 on something that prominent destroys too much of the basic core of the game on a model that is supposed to be a basic Troop choice... If Fire Warriors were given standard Bolter fire arms (str 4) with ap 5 at the range they had, I'd be alrighty with my currently shelved 11k Tau army... But every time I look at them and remember how easy it is to play even a BAD list with them, and still annihilate my veteran opponents, I cannot look at them as anything but grim-cheese to bring to a game, friendly or competitive.

Pulse Rifles have always been S5, haven't they? They were in the previous two books and weren't a problem in the previous two books so why do they suddenly need to lose a point of strength?

The big difference between now and then, is the fact these little mighty fire warriors can now En Mass, over watch. You don't quite know the dread of playing Tau and watching things disappear before they can even get to you, non tactically speaking, while sitting in the open, on an objective, and feeling like a complete piece of crap because of it being so easy... I hate my new Tau. The fact they are so cheap, means in comparison I could field nearly double the amount of Fire Warriors, with a suppressive range to fire from, which benefits far too easily from the rest of my army.

There is always the previously mentioned option to just bump the cost of the thing up.

Also aren't Riptides vulnerable to fear ?

rigeld2 wrote:
Carnifexes get 12 at the same BS (Yes, twin-linked) and are feared for it.

12 S6 shots 6 hit, 9 after re-roll,
8 S6 shots get 4 hits, no re-roll.
So... more than double the hits may have something to do with that.
Against flyers?
8 shots gets you 1.33 hits
12 shots twin-linked gets you 3.67 hits
Can you see the difference?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

One such method, being that Markerlights can no longer remove Cover Saves

So remove one of the most iconic powers Tau have

Fire Warriors need Str 4 Weapons. Str 5 on something that prominent destroys too much of the basic core of the game on a model that is supposed to be a basic Troop choice

And take away their standard iconic gun which is very strong in the fluff?

No offense but these are terrible ideas and really break a lot of what Tau have to keep them seperate from other armies. You want to make them IG vets with bolters and no special weapons.

And no offense to you, but your comparing them to Vets lol...

A 9 point model that can out range just about any other troop choice in the game with no downside aside from being "Poor" in CC is no excuse for a Tau player (As Im assuming you are....I hope not though) to defend how ridiculous their basic troops are. 9 Stinkin points.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

The big difference between now and then, is the fact these little mighty fire warriors can now En Mass, over watch

So then why not remove the overwatch ability? Why go straight to ruining what is good about Firewarriors?

You don't quite know the dread of playing Tau and watching things disappear before they can even get to you, non tactically speaking, while sitting in the open, on an objective, and feeling like a complete piece of crap because of it being so easy... I hate my new Tau.

I can't help but feel you're letting your own personal experience skew your opinion on balance.