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 Xenomancers wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.

Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.

I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.

Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.

It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.

Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).

I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.

This thread is about balance. Balance is important to table top games that take 4 hours to play. No one will complain if you aren't spamming riptides man - which is what this thread is about. Tau players don't want to see their OP indestructible battle suit nerfed because winning every game is a lot of fun but it's not fun for the other guy. Destroying entire squads from 60 inches away while shrugging off heavy amounts of firepower is fun for some people. For me after 3-4 of these games I'd have to put the riptides away. Most of my friends in my gaming group are of the same opinions - many used to play eldar and they are now shelved because they are "too powerful" I know it's crazy but eldar are so OP it's not even worth talking about. They only come up in nerf tau threads because tau is borderline with eldar with riptide spam.

Don't be discouraged though - just don't spam riptides. You can find a group easy- and most people that play this game are super friendly and want both parties to have fun - unlike most of the dakka fourmers.

Have you actually read anything "Tau players who dont want their OP indestructile battlesuit" have actually wrote?
Every. single. one. outright states that the IA is TOO GOOD.
The IA itself is, not the riptide without it. because the IA riptide is kicking asses left and right, and the HBC riptide is simple good.
Good enough to be viable-but not too good to dominate any scene, not too good to "invalidate strategies" as its often blamed for, and not too good to justify a nerf.

LordBlades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?

Whete do you get 40 shots for Riptide and 10-11 for Dreadknight
Are you by any chance comparing a Schrödinger's Riptide with FnP that succeeds every time on Nova Charge and always opts for 3+ to a Dreadknight that never uses Sanctuary?

Yes. he is.no question about it.
The wraithknight also seems to have forgotten he can have an invul save, and has 4 wounds rather than 6 (because with no invul and shooting at out-of-cover wraithknight, it takes 18, not 16. with the invul-its eating 27 hits., 16 fits a 5++ at 4 wounds.)
The riptide, assuming normal situation AND fnp can soak up 20.25, not 40 and in fact LESS than wraithknight. WTIH 3+ invul it really is the incredible 40.5, but as stated over ten times already by me alone-it requires setup the turn before its getting shoot at, and has a 33% that it will inflict a (no-save) wound on the riptide rather than boost its defense, actually REDUCING its durability rather than increasing it to soak up just 16.2 (what the wraithknight was falsely said to have. interesting isn't it?)
And yes, the price difference goes even higher when its the suncannons+shield setup. but that's the flaw of being good at every single aspect of the game making you cost alot. riptides are good at mobility, shooting and soaking shots. they suck at moral (the WORST MC in moral, by far) suck at CC attacks (pretty sure its the worst here too) and it never survives CC because it sucks at dishing CC, and sucks at moral, so he takes a single wound, deals nothing back, flees and gets runned down. by most basic infantry in the game.
And yet, we still claim outright that the IA version is too good, despite its flaws, because its too good at shooting and soaking shots (the HBC is worse at both, from reasons I made freaking books worthy of calculations and analysis so far explaining it across dozens of threads and I will NOT go into it again. and yes, switching a gun can reduce your ability to survive being shot at if you can think on the bigger scheme and a game's worth of actions rather than simple looking at a single roll of Schrodinger's riptide.) but saying two of them are better than three wraithknights (it WAS said here) is being either hateful, or simply stupid.


And than they wonder why every time "tau OP/riptide OP" threads come up we treat them with suspicion and anger. because they are using such obvious biased claims that often border balant lies, ignore every piece of information that is countering their point as if its not relevant (even when its as huge as "CC god vs CC chum") and in general have made a desicion before even having any facts.
Heck, I've lost count on how many times I had to explain to people how the rules of the riptide actually work, let alone their interactions and side-effects, yet they still thought they know better than me just how balance or imbalance they are despite the fact they had no clue what the actual rules are.

I said I'd rather face three wraithknights than two Riptides based off my experiences with both Wraithknights and Riptides. One big reason: fewer points for WS. Two Riptides, used properly, will burn down most of my list before the game is over.

Martel732 wrote:
Two Riptides, used properly, will burn down most of my list before the game is over.

Because you play on very bad fields. Your personal experience is very very skewed because you insist on using terrain that will never benefit you and refuse to ask your opponents, who apparently can't understand that not every unit needs across the board LOS, that some larger LOS blocking pieces are needed.

You may as well complain about a game where your opponent is controlling your movement phase as well because you are purposefully handing your opponent complete control of the game.

Many people seem to believe that LOS blocking helps the move shoot jump units in the Tau list. I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much. They only need a couple good looks.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.

If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.

If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.

Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.

When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.

And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.

If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.

Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.

When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.

And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.

Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?

The main problem I have with the "board" argument is that I'm not being vaporized against Orks or DE.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.

If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.

Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.

When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.

And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.

Not to threadjack, but I have to ask -- is your forum name a reference to the Jam?

Alcibiades wrote:


Not to threadjack, but I have to ask -- is your forum name a reference to the Jam?

Yes it is

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.

If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.

Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.

When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.

And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.

Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?

The main problem I have with the "board" argument is that I'm not being vaporized against Orks or DE.

So then, what it basically boils down to is you win against Orks and DE, so they're fine, but you lose to Tau, so they need to be weakened so that you can beat them as well?
I have played both as and against Tau, and yes, you need to play smarter than "Chaaaaarge!!!" against them. Which is a good thing.
I find it a little depressing that the reason you think they need to be weakened is that defeating them requires thought.

Martel732 wrote:


Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?

Your own movement. If you have terrain so their forces are split 1:2 (ie 2/3 of their army can't see what the last 1/3 can) then you can slam hard into the 1/3 of their army that is cut off from the support of the rest.

Of course you'll need to have something to keep the other 2/3 busy so they can't just relocate to where they can see your main attack. This is where some fast units or drop pod units can come in handy to keep them tied up shooting these weaker/distraction elements whilst the main force moves in to take out the weaker side then roll round and finish off the rest.

So, for example, you could drop pod in a unit with lots of flamers in a position where they'll be able to get out and get right up to a unit of fire warriors or two (if they're castling up to maximise support fire then they're also typically pretty close together). So now that you're at the end of the movement phase the Riptide uses it's EWO to try and hit you with interceptor, but can't get the large blast on you as you're too close to the fire warriors, so it has to use the less scary 3 shots at BS3, killing 1 marine. Now it's your shooting turn and you unload those flamers into the bunched up units of fire warriors.

Meanwhile you could drop an empty pod in the way of their other units to further block LOS and annoy them with stormbolter fire and have the main brunt of your force charge up the board towards the weaker side of the Tau forces. Use Rhinos as mobile LOS blockers whilst they turbo towards the enemy, followed by jump pack assault marines. If the Rhinos get wrecked then whatever units were inside keep moving and running forwards. Once you get close enough you jump the assault marines over the unit in front, then declare a charge with the tac (or whatever unit) unit behind before declaring the charge with the assault marines.

Tau player now has to choose whether to overwatch the tac unit or hold off and hope it doesn't get into combat so they can overwatch the assault marines with maximum firepower. Best case scenario you manage to multi assault with the tac unit to lock up units then join in with the assault unit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?

Your own movement. If you have terrain so their forces are split 1:2 (ie 2/3 of their army can't see what the last 1/3 can) then you can slam hard into the 1/3 of their army that is cut off from the support of the rest.

Of course you'll need to have something to keep the other 2/3 busy so they can't just relocate to where they can see your main attack. This is where some fast units or drop pod units can come in handy to keep them tied up shooting these weaker/distraction elements whilst the main force moves in to take out the weaker side then roll round and finish off the rest.

So, for example, you could drop pod in a unit with lots of flamers in a position where they'll be able to get out and get right up to a unit of fire warriors or two (if they're castling up to maximise support fire then they're also typically pretty close together). So now that you're at the end of the movement phase the Riptide uses it's EWO to try and hit you with interceptor, but can't get the large blast on you as you're too close to the fire warriors, so it has to use the less scary 3 shots at BS3, killing 1 marine. Now it's your shooting turn and you unload those flamers into the bunched up units of fire warriors.

Meanwhile you could drop an empty pod in the way of their other units to further block LOS and annoy them with stormbolter fire and have the main brunt of your force charge up the board towards the weaker side of the Tau forces.

2/3 of an army not being able to see me is never going to happen. I'll tell you that now. I'm against like nine other players on this. That's not happening. Let's say I got them to agree to LOS blocking to block 1/3 of his list, 2/3 of Tau army is still crippling fire. They are just so good at what they do and being weak in assault is like a non-disadvantage in 7th.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadawake1347 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.

If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.

Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.

When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.

And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.

Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?

The main problem I have with the "board" argument is that I'm not being vaporized against Orks or DE.

So then, what it basically boils down to is you win against Orks and DE, so they're fine, but you lose to Tau, so they need to be weakened so that you can beat them as well?
I have played both as and against Tau, and yes, you need to play smarter than "Chaaaaarge!!!" against them. Which is a good thing.
I find it a little depressing that the reason you think they need to be weakened is that defeating them requires thought.

Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought. How much easier does it get than telling me which unit to put back in the model case? If you think you can beat Orks or DE with BA without thought, I welcome you to try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll also say that my games against Tau are much closer than my Eldar games. So they are far from the worst. But "closer" is still not very close to victory. I'll cause more damage against Tau, but the Riptides can not be overcome.

If the group you play against does not allow LOS blocking terrain just so they can have a shooting gallery, it might be time find a new group to play with.

Martel732 wrote:

Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.

Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.

Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.

I didn't go there first. A Tau player did. One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar. Which they all have, of course. I'm almost as sick of Tiggy as Riptides.

From what I've seen, Tau players mostly following a firing algorithm of target priorities. If the algorithm breaks down for some reason, that's when I see them lose. But throwing them off with marines is difficult because of low model count and low firepower.

Martel732 wrote:
One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar.

So you have a lower tier army. And you want one of the higher tier ones brought down to the lower tier rather than your lower tier brought up or balance established?
You do realize we've already tried to explain how to help balance the game? What better way to break up the "target algorithm" than to put units out of LOS?

But you're insisting/implying that ALL Tau games are entirely one sided and that Tau can win any game without thinking.

No, I've seen Tau struggle mightily against Eldar, Demons, and Tiggy star lists filled with grav. And those are on the kinds of tables I play on.

It's very frustrating that some lists require special tables against Tau and others can just throw it all down on any table and do just fine.

Also, if you haven't noticed the last few codices GW put out, the only hope that group has is for others to be nerfed. Because most of them don't have WS or Riptide equivalent units in terms of effectiveness.

Boniface wrote:
Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.

Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.

I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.

Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.

It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.

Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).

I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.

This is unfortunetly why my Tau are sitting on a shelf as well. They are the most hated army when everything they do, eldar do it better. I have noticed in about every Tau hate thread that the whining parties always say they play with firing lane or with as little cover as possible. 40k in it's current edition favors the mobile army that can shoot well and do decent in assaults. That is why SM and Eldar are on the top consistently. The new Nids are probably top teir now as well when FW is included (dem Malanthropes )

Martel732 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.

Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.

I didn't go there first. A Tau player did. One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar. Which they all have, of course. I'm almost as sick of Tiggy as Riptides.

From what I've seen, Tau players mostly following a firing algorithm of target priorities. If the algorithm breaks down for some reason, that's when I see them lose. But throwing them off with marines is difficult because of low model count and low firepower.

I'm actually not really a Tau player, I've played as them because one of my friends like to switch armies every few games to make things more interesting. Most of the games going against them were using Grey Knights. You want to complain about a low model count army? Try taking an army that's mostly paladins against them. However I won as often as I lost because I would use the terrain and the Tau's weaknesses against them. Target priority is a thing against every army, including Tau. If you're having problems with them ignoring cover and shooting accurately, take out the squishy pathfinders.

If anything, the new BA are great against them, essentially a hard counter if you use the right builds. The ability to deepstrike from reserves, and if you take drop pods along with the formation, do so first turn should, and does, scare the hell out of the Tau. They want you to walk slowly across the table so that they can whittle you down. If I could pick any single army to ruin a Tau player's day it would be BA.

Edit: Your problem seems to be that you're fighting your opponent in a way that gives them all of the benefits, and then complaining when you lose. The whole point of the game is to avoid that. You act as if getting into combat with Tau is impossible, which it likely is if you walk across a barren field to get to them. Drop pods into their midst, take fast moving warriors like jump infantry. If the Fire Warriors are all grouping together to make the most of supporting fire, template the hell out of them. Fire warriors, ironically, are not fans of flamers or heavy flamers, which BA conveniently have access to on their tactical marines.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

The Riptide doesn't move like that at all. It moves 6 in the movement phase then 2d6 in assault phase, meaning max movement is 8-18" a turn, not 13-18" a turn. (10-30" if you nova-charge for movement, but who does that?)

What's the average of 2d6? And then what's that added to the 6 in the movement phase? Thanks.

Sure, lets take the average and max and give that out as the baseline, when the full range is what actually is needed to understand the model fully. Saying it can move 13"-18" a turn is being dishonest when the actual range of possible movement is 8-18".

rigeld2 wrote:

2 sets of the same relic? The list I was talking about was didn't use any of the Tau relics (iirc... I don't care enough to bring battlescribe back up)
And why are all 5 Riptides in the shield arc again? And you're ignoring Fusion Blasters. But that's okay. Oh, and I was comparing apples to apples. Someone else mentioned 2k points, so that's what I ran with. (hence giving the IKs 150 points to play with - but you neglected to read that post).

You said 2 buffmanders. The buffmander carries 2-3 relics in order to buff his squad, therefore 2 is completely illogical. And I ignored fusion blasters because they will never be in melta range, because if they are the riptide gets removed next turn due to S: D CC attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Also, if the Tau player is going for a 3++ every turn, that means the riptides are effectively on.y 4.666w models because of the 1.333 wounds they take from nova charge failures (assuming 6 turns, means 2 fails and 1.33 wounds gets applied to the model).

Oh... kay?

I actually did bad math there. It's only a 3.333w model if you nova every turn. For some silly reason I subtracted the 1.333w it takes from 6 instead of 5.

rigeld2 wrote:

mulletdude wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

And that overcharged HBC is 12 gets hot shots. It average it's 0.33 wounds from that alone.
HBC riptide that tries to overcharge every turn deals on average 3.33 select wounds in a game. And if he doesn't, he deals negligible damage.

Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...

Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.

Your math is just all wrong. Average course of a 6 turn game the riptide will fail 2 nova charges and take 1.333 wounds from those failures. During the successful nova charges, it will fire 48 gets hot shots, of which 8 will be ones, 1.333 will be ones after that, and .889 will be failed FNP rolls. That means the average HBC riptide during an average 6 turn game will lose 2.223 wounds to itself during the course of that game. That means the riptide really only has 3w that the opponents need to cause. This is of course ignoring the fact that most commanders wont nova-charge a 1w riptide for fear of losing it to a failed roll. [in reading further in the thread, I see this point has been made already]

Please explain how my quote is "all wrong". I responded to what I quoted - that 12 shots will result in .33 wounds. Your math has 12 shots resulting in .22 wounds, so your math doesn't agree with what I was responding to either.

My math was assuming Schrodinger's Riptide with FNP, hence the .22 instead of the .33 you get. With no FNP I also get the .33w per firing phase, for a total of 2.778% chance per shot fired (1.852% with FNP). It also was combining the gets hot rolls for 48 shots (4 nova successful) with the 2 failed nova's, for the total of 3.33w to itself. That means the opponent only needs to deal 2w to finish it off. This is why the HBC option is never taken. It's just too risky.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mulletdude wrote:
"make sure you are playing on tables with line of sight blocking terrain."

There is no way to guarantee this, and my group doesn't play with very much LOS blocking terrain as a rule. I shouldn't have to cower behind hills and buildings and cardboard boxes to compete.

Have you seen the game boards GW uses in their battle reports? They have almost 50% coverage and there are TONS of line of sight blocking. If your game are has poor terrain and the meta has shifted to shooting armies, they need to be forced to work for it by not being able to use their guns every turn. In 5th the BA were okay because there really wasn't the firepower there is in the game today.

rigeld2 wrote:

mulletdude wrote:My point is still the same. The Tau army forces people to change the way they play, and they don't like it.

No, this isn't a fact. I'm a Nid player - I have to essentially completely change tactics every time a new codex gets released - any codex.

Nids need less changing now that all the extra models and rules have come out for them. Being able to get 3 flyrants for almost no troop tax is quite formidable, and the Malanthrope is exactly what they need to walk up the board and survive doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:


I never use melta suicide sternguard in a pod. Therefore, there are not a benchmark for me. Play marine players that don't throw their 30 pts models away foolishly.

I play against a lot of good players in my area. Turns out having a squad of 30pt marines that can point, click, and delete a tank or ID a bunch of stuff is worth 30pts a model.

Martel732 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.

Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.

I didn't go there first. A Tau player did. One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar. Which they all have, of course. I'm almost as sick of Tiggy as Riptides.

From what I've seen, Tau players mostly following a firing algorithm of target priorities. If the algorithm breaks down for some reason, that's when I see them lose. But throwing them off with marines is difficult because of low model count and low firepower.

Can we get an example list from you? Maybe your problem against Tau is a simple listbuilding problem instead of something else. And the target priority thing you said is completely true. The way to exploit this is taking a lot of things that need to be dealt with, there by overloading their target priority.

Another issue: I don't know the enemy codex before the game, so I can't list tailor in anyway. I have to prepare for Orks, Nids, CSM, Tau, Eldar, etc.

My current list has very few templates, because against MOST lists, I can live without the templates. I usually only use one drop pod, because I don't like that style of play, and there are just as many lists I don't want to deploy via pod as there are cases where it would be advantageous.

Martel732 wrote:
Another issue: I don't know the enemy codex before the game, so I can't list tailor in anyway. I have to prepare for Orks, Nids, CSM, Tau, Eldar, etc.

My current list has very few templates, because against MOST lists, I can live without the templates. I usually only use one drop pod, because I don't like that style of play, and there are just as many lists I don't want to deploy via pod as there are cases where it would be advantageous.

Templates handle Orks, Nids, Tau, and Eldar infantry really well. Heck, even scouts get burned out by the heavy flamer, and anything space marine cringes at the heavy2 s6 rending frag cannon from the furioso. I've had good success when using 3 frag cannon dreads and 2 squads of ASM with melta in pods. This setup is dirt cheap (725 pts) and 5 pods guarentees you get 3 on turn 1, and that can be devastating against many armies.

From what I see, he insists on playing with lists that do not take any of the vast numbers of tools that punish tau gunline tactics, plays on the terrain setup that is most absurdly biased in favor of shooting armies.
And he then say its OP.

Maybe, just MAYBE you should try actually taking the tool intened to fight the very lists you claim kick your ass, and play on a field not completely in their favor. do you see any real-world general that says "well, I need to take down a tank convoy, so I'll go at them in the open field with light machine guns."?

NO! you bring the godamn tools for the job and pick your fighitng zones. yes, in a game both players "pick their zone", so the table should be somewhat balanced for a good game, but your games are tilted so far its not even funny!

Heck, I play tau and I would refuse to play such an empty board. my buddie's board we place like 3-4 big building around around (admittedly some cardboard), several small one on top of multiple forests, craters, fencese, sandbags, etc. and we get bummered that we don't have more, and work on increasing the numbers despite the fact we are pretty much all shooting armies, and thrive in coverless tables.
In our local shop we even place neutral bunkers, gun emplacements and such from time to time.
Ever time I see a batrep with zero terrain, or a tau-hate topic when it reveals that there is no terrain, I just want to facepalm. these guys are literally not playing 40k.

"Shooting gallery" games end on the statagic level once you have done listbuilding.

Do e really need to bring back the "how to terrain" rules from 6th? they made a table have in total 6d3 "pieces", where a piece is a forest/BUILDING/a cluster of small stuff, its ALOT.
The 7th unfortunatly settles in saying "the more the better", and I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a battlezone from GW that did not include heavy terrain, but

 BoomWolf wrote:
From what I see, he insists on playing with lists that do not take any of the vast numbers of tools that punish tau gunline tactics, plays on the terrain setup that is most absurdly biased in favor of shooting armies.
And he then say its OP.

Maybe, just MAYBE you should try actually taking the tool intened to fight the very lists you claim kick your ass, and play on a field not completely in their favor. do you see any real-world general that says "well, I need to take down a tank convoy, so I'll go at them in the open field with light machine guns."?

NO! you bring the godamn tools for the job and pick your fighitng zones. yes, in a game both players "pick their zone", so the table should be somewhat balanced for a good game, but your games are tilted so far its not even funny!

Heck, I play tau and I would refuse to play such an empty board. my buddie's board we place like 3-4 big building around around (admittedly some cardboard), several small one on top of multiple forests, craters, fencese, sandbags, etc. and we get bummered that we don't have more, and work on increasing the numbers despite the fact we are pretty much all shooting armies, and thrive in coverless tables.
In our local shop we even place neutral bunkers, gun emplacements and such from time to time.
Ever time I see a batrep with zero terrain, or a tau-hate topic when it reveals that there is no terrain, I just want to facepalm. these guys are literally not playing 40k.

"Shooting gallery" games end on the statagic level once you have done listbuilding.

Do e really need to bring back the "how to terrain" rules from 6th? they made a table have in total 6d3 "pieces", where a piece is a forest/BUILDING/a cluster of small stuff, its ALOT.
The 7th unfortunatly settles in saying "the more the better", and I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a battlezone from GW that did not include heavy terrain, but

How do I pick the tools if I don't know what the opposing list is going to be? I don't think a list tailored to beat Tau is going to fare well against most other lists. Maybe I'm wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mulletdude wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Another issue: I don't know the enemy codex before the game, so I can't list tailor in anyway. I have to prepare for Orks, Nids, CSM, Tau, Eldar, etc.

My current list has very few templates, because against MOST lists, I can live without the templates. I usually only use one drop pod, because I don't like that style of play, and there are just as many lists I don't want to deploy via pod as there are cases where it would be advantageous.

Templates handle Orks, Nids, Tau, and Eldar infantry really well. Heck, even scouts get burned out by the heavy flamer, and anything space marine cringes at the heavy2 s6 rending frag cannon from the furioso. I've had good success when using 3 frag cannon dreads and 2 squads of ASM with melta in pods. This setup is dirt cheap (725 pts) and 5 pods guarentees you get 3 on turn 1, and that can be devastating against many armies.

He's a sample TAC list I've won with twice against marines and DE and lost against Eldar:

Tactical Squad
Plasma gun
Combi-plasma
Razor back
Las/plas
Dozer blade

Tactical Squad
Plasma gun
Combi-plasma
Razor back
Las/plas
Dozer blade

Death company
5 more guys
Jump packs
Power fist X 2

Bike Squad
2 more
2 X grav guns
combi-grav

Predator
Las turret
Lascannons
Over charged
Dozer blade

Furioso
Frag
Heavy flamer
Drop pod

Attack Bikes X 3
Multi meltas



Librarian
Level 2
Jump Pack

Sternguard
4 more guys
Rhino
Dozer blade

Mephiston

Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.

 Ignatius wrote:
Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.

So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.

What is this Space Marine MC? Am I going insane that I overlooked it.

 Quickjager wrote:
What is this Space Marine MC? Am I going insane that I overlooked it.

Notice I said "Walker/MC" in regards to the Imperial Knight/Dreadkinght, but with the Imperial ally and multiple CAD shenanigans it wouldn't be to hard for them to get a few Dreadknights in Space Marine army.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.

So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.

You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.

"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"

I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.

So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.

You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.

"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"

I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.

As mentioned before, Knight and Dreadknight will most likely not change in the next 2 years minimum.

If so, why should Tau Riptide be nerfed to the point it's strictly worse than units that every Imperial army has access to?