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No, they wont.
Centurions strike at AP2 and can hurt AV14. broadsides do not.
Big difference.

Avoiding ID at S8 and being able to move and shoot are huge bonuses on their own.

I do agree that the HYMP needs a tweak and the HRR needs a buff.

In all honesty I really feel that Broadsides need the T5 and relentless treatment and the weapons can get fixed accordingly. For a model that size it really should be tougher than a SM.

They ARE tougher than a Space Marine, they are Terminator equivalent.

Dude, its a dreadnaut sized model with T4.

Its insane.

Broadsides need +1T and +1W to fit the model, than be re-costed appropriately. (on top of improving the HRR to be worth a damn.)

It is a touch smaller on all dimensions than a dreadnought, but please don't bring up the Walkers... I don't want to rehash 5 pages.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.

-So lets get rid of one of the few things that make Tau unique? Seriously maybe people should just learn to kill T3 and T4 models with at best a 4+ save, or is that to difficult? Every army has access to things that ignore cover and a fact that is continuously overlooked is the cost of Marker Light wielding units and their general fragility. They do not need to be changed.

-Base cost of the Riptide does NOT need to change, its perfectly fine for what you get. Increase the points cost of the Ion Accelerator and that would be perfectly fine, if the Riptides base cost really needs to increase then so does the Dreadknights because it just as durable.

-As mentioned the cost of the Ion Accelerator needs to go up and in regards to the High Yield Missile Pods the same argument can be made to a certain degree. Maybe a small points increase (10pts. per Broadside minimum) would be satisfactory but if they do that then they either need to bring back the S10 Railgun on the Broadsides or make them T5 and Relentless.

" its perfectly fine for what you get."

For Tau players. It's too mobile and too tough at the same time for the cost. It needs a modest cost increase and the IA needs a huge cost increase or a ban hammer.

Dreadnight is significantly less durable than a Riptide. Please get real. The math has been done to death.

Martel732 wrote:
" its perfectly fine for what you get."

For Tau players. It's too mobile and too tough at the same time for the cost. It needs a modest cost increase and the IA needs a huge cost increase or a ban hammer.

Dreadnight is significantly less durable than a Riptide. Please get real. The math has been done to death.

It is not less durable at all, it only has x1 less wound then the Riptide. Other then that its a lot cheaper, hits harder, is MUCH more maneuverable and has access to Psychic powers. If the Riptide needs a "cost increase" and changes to its weapons then the Dreadknight certainly does to.

It also has shorter range. Because of that it will be moving TOWARDS the enemy every turn, to fight in melee like it is supposed to.

 Quickjager wrote:
It also has shorter range.

Which it makes up for being able to move a reliable 12 inches a turn and a 30 inch "shunt" move to close the distance along with it having an Instant Death weapon thanks to its Psychic powers.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" its perfectly fine for what you get."

For Tau players. It's too mobile and too tough at the same time for the cost. It needs a modest cost increase and the IA needs a huge cost increase or a ban hammer.

Dreadnight is significantly less durable than a Riptide. Please get real. The math has been done to death.

It is not less durable at all, it only has x1 less wound then the Riptide. Other then that its a lot cheaper, hits harder, is MUCH more maneuverable and has access to Psychic powers. If the Riptide needs a "cost increase" and changes to its weapons then the Dreadknight certainly does to.

It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide. And going from 3++ FNP vs AP 2 fire to 4++ is a huge downgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
It also has shorter range.

Which it makes up for being able to move a reliable 12 inches a turn and a 30 inch "shunt" move to close the distance along with it having an Instant Death weapon thanks to its Psychic powers.

All my guys have one wound anyway, so why should I care about ID?

 Quickjager wrote:
It also has shorter range.

It's also a beast in close combat, rather than a liability. You throw a five man squad of marines at a Riptide, and worse case scenario, you tie it up for several rounds at it might kill one a turn. Best case scenario you cause a wound to the riptide, it loses combat, and you run it down and kill it, because it's got average leadership, lacks fearless, and has a crap initiative.

You do the same thing to a Dreadknight, and it will devour them and continue fighting.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
It also has shorter range.

It's also a beast in close combat, rather than a liability. You throw a five man squad of marines at a Riptide, and worse case scenario, you tie it up for several rounds at it might kill one a turn. Best case scenario you cause a wound to the riptide, it loses combat, and you run it down and kill it, because it's got average leadership, lacks fearless, and has a crap initiative.

You do the same thing to a Dreadknight, and it will devour them and continue fighting.

How do you get a five man squad of marines TO a Riptide? What Riptide commander is going to allow themselves to be assaulted? My BA rarely allow themselves to be assaulted and Riptides are EVEN faster. Sure, I guess the BA can pay a *1000* pt tax for the privilege of having their tac marines get stepped on by Riptides on turn 1.

Martel732 wrote:


It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.

It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.

It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.

I don't care about CC ability. Something with CC ability allows me to still move and try to play my game. They can't point at me from 36"+ and tell me to pick up entire squads with no saves, no cover. As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.

Martel732 wrote:
My BA rarely allow themselves to be assaulted and Riptides are EVEN faster. Sure, I guess the BA can pay a *1000* pt tax for the privilege of having their tac marines get stepped on by Riptides on turn 1.

Haven't we already gone over this? YOUR BA are a subpar codex and you play at the absolute worst boards for them and the absolute best for Tau.
Are you still going on about how you want Tau to be so bad that they are an autolose to lower tier armies with all conditions in their favor?

Martel732 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.

It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.

I don't care about CC ability. Something with CC ability allows me to still move and try to play my game. They can't point at me from 36"+ and tell me to pick up entire squads with no saves, no cover. As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.

Then instead of constantly complaining on how your Blood Angels are outclassed (I believe it was pointed out earlier in this thread that there are certain problems with your list along with terrain ect.) try and find some things that do work? You could easily add in some Grey Knights and convert some awesome looking models which would fit the Blood Angel look, could try Drop Pods, ect.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My BA rarely allow themselves to be assaulted and Riptides are EVEN faster. Sure, I guess the BA can pay a *1000* pt tax for the privilege of having their tac marines get stepped on by Riptides on turn 1.

Haven't we already gone over this? YOUR BA are a subpar codex and you play at the absolute worst boards for them and the absolute best for Tau.
Are you still going on about how you want Tau to be so bad that they are an autolose to lower tier armies with all conditions in their favor?

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. And I think you know it. I'm just disagreeing with your assessment of Dreadknights vs Riptides. Riptides cause way, way more casualties than Dreadknights. How can they not? They start in from much further away and there is practically no way to silence them at range.


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 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.

It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.

I don't care about CC ability. Something with CC ability allows me to still move and try to play my game. They can't point at me from 36"+ and tell me to pick up entire squads with no saves, no cover. As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.

Then instead of constantly complaining on how your Blood Angels are outclassed (I believe it was pointed out earlier in this thread that there are certain problems with your list along with terrain ect.) try and find some things that do work? You could easily add in some Grey Knights and convert some awesome looking models which would fit the Blood Angel look, could try Drop Pods, ect.

Riptides can vaporize at lot more than BA squads. This isn't a BA thing. I watch them do this to many, many lists.

I'm still waiting to hear how 4++ is better than 3++ w/FNP. And the 4++ model has pretty gimpy firepower.

"certain problems with your list"

I don't recall that. Only everyone thinking a couple of boxes would be a panacea. I'm still thinking I'll just be vaporized one turn later after I come out from behind the box.

Martel732 wrote:

I don't care about CC ability.

That's nice, but it doesn't matter what you do or don't care about. CC has an offensive/defensive affect to the unit.

As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.

Can you quote a single person that said the IA is fine as it is? Can you? Just a few? Maybe one?
WE KNOW! We've been trying to tell you that for a while.
You would rather have a fix that ruins the HBC as well as the IA than try and fix the IA itself.
I can't think of a single Tau player that has posted in this thread that doesn't agree that the IA needs a fix. But somehow you keep insisting that the HBC variant should be BAD as well.

" But somehow you keep insisting that the HBC variant should be BAD as well."

I think it should be better, actually. I just think the base chasis with no weapon at all should cost more.

"CC has an offensive/defensive affect to the unit. "

Not if you die before you can use it. Shooting >>>>> CC.

Martel732 wrote:
I just think the base chasis with no weapon at all should cost more.

Then you want the HBC nerfed since it's going to cost more for the same gun.
Which is weird that you mentioned removing gets hot from it and I think you insisted gets hot on 2+ and potential FNP was irrelevant.
Which would lead to the conclusion that suggesting a price increase and an irrelevant buff would have the end result be a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Not if you die before you can use it.

Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I just think the base chasis with no weapon at all should cost more.

Then you want the HBC nerfed since it's going to cost more for the same gun.
Which is weird that you mentioned removing gets hot from it and I think you insisted gets hot on 2+ and potential FNP was irrelevant.
Which would lead to the conclusion that suggesting a price increase and an irrelevant buff would have the end result be a nerf.

I was just trying to address that issue that some people brought up. I'd be fine with increasing the ROF on it as well. I think the ROF on GW's multibarrel weapons is far too low.

Martel732 wrote:

Riptides can vaporize at lot more than BA squads. This isn't a BA thing. I watch them do this to many, many lists.

I'm still waiting to hear how 4++ is better than 3++ w/FNP. And the 4++ model has pretty gimpy firepower.

"certain problems with your list"

I don't recall that. Only everyone thinking a couple of boxes would be a panacea. I'm still thinking I'll just be vaporized one turn later after I come out from behind the box.

-Only if you are not hugging cover or as you mentioned previously a lack of terrain on your tables.

-Also once AGAIN the 3++ is not AUTOMATIC unlike your 2+ 4+ save which is and there is no risk to hurting yourself.

Also in regards to your claims that "Riptides always kill more then Dreadknights" is completely false. Your Flame template for example will slaughter Fire Warriors and any other armies infantry, especially those that do not have a 3+ save more reliable then a template that can gets hot and scatters. That is an army dependent claim you made and therefore is not entirely accurate, it depends on the army your facing.

"Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?"

Not easily, but the same kinds of weapons drop them much faster because half the wounds get though instead of just 22%. Plus dreadknights love to move themselves into plasma double tap range and grav range. While Riptides constantly run away and can't be caught while decimating your units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Riptides can vaporize at lot more than BA squads. This isn't a BA thing. I watch them do this to many, many lists.

I'm still waiting to hear how 4++ is better than 3++ w/FNP. And the 4++ model has pretty gimpy firepower.

"certain problems with your list"

I don't recall that. Only everyone thinking a couple of boxes would be a panacea. I'm still thinking I'll just be vaporized one turn later after I come out from behind the box.

-Only if you are not hugging cover or as you mentioned previously a lack of terrain on your tables.

-Also once AGAIN the 3++ is not AUTOMATIC unlike your 2+ 4+ save which is and there is no risk to hurting yourself.

Also in regards to your claims that "Riptides always kill more then Dreadknights" is completely false. Your Flame template for example will slaughter Fire Warriors and any other armies infantry, especially those that do not have a 3+ save more reliable then a template that can gets hot and scatters. That is an army dependent claim you made and therefore is not entirely accurate, it depends on the army your facing.

So it's just gonna shunt up and flame some fire warriors and put itself within plasma/fusion range of the whole list? Good plan. But it sure showed those fire warriors with that flamer, let me tell you.

"Also once AGAIN the 3++ is not AUTOMATIC unlike your 2+ 4+ save which is and there is no risk to hurting yourself. "

5++/FNP is still better than 4++.

Martel732 wrote:
"Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?"

Not easily, but the same kinds of weapons drop them much faster because half the wounds get though instead of just 22%. Plus dreadknights love to move themselves into plasma double tap range and grav range. While Riptides constantly run away and can't be caught while decimating your units.

Either your playing on boards that are to big or are just utilizing poor tactics, it is not impossible to get to a Riptide with either kind of weapon, especially with certain armies such as Drop Pods and Bikes. And again you are basing this off of the 3++ save being an automatic thing which it ISNT. Failing 1/3 of the time with no saves outside of a FNP happens a lot more then you think. And that's fine, a Dreadknight moves into said double tap range, gets off its psychic power and can Instant Death an entire squad with its Pscilencer on top of flaming them with its incinerator on top of being that it can then wreck things in CC.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?"

Not easily, but the same kinds of weapons drop them much faster because half the wounds get though instead of just 22%. Plus dreadknights love to move themselves into plasma double tap range and grav range. While Riptides constantly run away and can't be caught while decimating your units.

Either your playing on boards that are to big or are just utilizing poor tactics, it is not impossible to get to a Riptide with either kind of weapon, especially with certain armies such as Drop Pods and Bikes. And again you are basing this off of the 3++ save being an automatic thing which it ISNT. Failing 1/3 of the time with no saves outside of a FNP happens a lot more then you think. And that's fine, a Dreadknight moves into said double tap range, gets off its psychic power and can Instant Death an entire squad with its Pscilencer on top of flaming them with its incinerator on top of being that it can then wreck things in CC.

Get riptides within 24" of plasma guns, sure. 12"? Only vs a paste-eating Tau commander.

I already addressed the save thing. 5+/FNP is still better than 4++. And I don't count the pitiful chance to get a wound through the 2+/FNP from the gets hot as anything to be counted on in a game.

4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.

EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?

Sorry,the last GK I played must have still been on the 5th ed codex. It's only got a 5++? Uhh, that's not a problem at all. It is still T7? Not that that really matters.

 Quickjager wrote:
4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.

EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?

I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).

 gmaleron wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.

EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?

I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).

So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.