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Martel732 wrote:
Sorry,the last GK I played must have still been on the 5th ed codex. It's only got a 5++? Uhh, that's not a problem at all. It is still T7? Not that that really matters.

T7... go slap that guy for me, its fething T6.

It didn't matter. I still mercilessly killed the thing. Too much melta/plasma for it to handle, even at 4++. I've never killed a Riptide so easily. Ever.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.

EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?

I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).

So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.

I am debating in good faith sir as I am still making an accurate point which to me personally appears to be a double standard. Most turns a Dreadknight will have a 4+ as it is only the Psilencer that gets instant death and it if it doesn't have it then it will be going for the beefed up invulnerable save. and the base Riptide save is the SAME as the Dreadknight as both have a 2+ 5+ and are Toughness 6.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.

EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?

I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).

So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.

I am debating in good faith sir as I am still making an accurate point which to me personally appears to be a double standard. Most turns a Dreadknight will have a 4+ as it is only the Psilencer that gets instant death and it if it doesn't have it then it will be going for the beefed up invulnerable save. and the base Riptide save is the SAME as the Dreadknight as both have a 2+ 5+ and are Toughness 6.

The Dreadknight doesn't have access to FNP at all; and doesn't have access to any significant ranged weaponry. That makes a huge difference. It can shunt itself into trouble. Yippee.

Only if your not being tactically smart with it and its not always into "trouble" as you so put it. You can easily take x3 of them and have all x3 of them Shunt forward on one flank and obliterate it. Also being close means it puts them in optimal range for Close Combat which they are nasty in, being close isn't always bad as long as you know how to do it right, that comes down to tactics.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.

EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?

I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).

So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.

The fact that an IA Riptide can afford to.nova for 3++ often is a fault of the IA (it's overcharged profile is too good). An HBC Riptide needs to nova for the gun (more than 50% increase in damage potential), otherwise 8 s6 shots is pathetic for a 235 points model (HBC riptide with VT and Stims).

You're also greatly undervaluing the Dreadknight's utility in IDing multiwound models (on a 12 shot weapon). 7th edition is most definitely not about how many 1w infantry you put on the table, but about how many big things you put on the table. A significant amount of those big things are multi-wound MCs.

Ultimately, how do you think a Riptide fares across the table from a Dreadknight?

To the people saying that the Draedknight always moves into 'trouble'... What are you worried about? If it is Plasma, that will be1, 2 or 3 rapid fire shots (depending on whether they are on tactical marines, cheese wolves or IG vets) they have to hit on a 3+, then wound on a 3+. I highly doubt that the Dreadknight will lose 4 wounds.

When that Dreadknight survives it will kick ass again with its OP guns and its cheesy CC abilities.

Also, if you shunt your Dreadknight in front of some plasma guys you are a massive dumbass. A GK player shunted in front of my buffmander in dual plasma crisis squad and complained that he died but what did he expect?

Dreadknights are cheesy as they are superior to Tyranid MCs in all aspects: CC, psychic abilities, maneuvability, shooting.

Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.

Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.

So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.

So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.

The point they are trying to get throgh is not that dreadknights need to be nerfed-but that the riptide is not anything special in his preformance, and as such needs no nerf (assuming HBC, I'm starting to feel dumbed down that I have to mention this in every single post.)

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.

Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.

So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.

So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.

Or we could look at it from another angle: Dreadknight is the most recently released all out combat MC. As such it represents the most up to date standard of what the designers intend a combat MC to do. Therefore everything else should be buffed or nerfed as needed to be on par with the Dreadknight.

LordBlades wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.

Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.

So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.

So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.

Or we could look at it from another angle: Dreadknight is the most recently released all out combat MC. As such it represents the most up to date standard of what the designers intend a combat MC to do. Therefore everything else should be buffed or nerfed as needed to be on par with the Dreadknight.

Pretty much this.

Also, if GW wanted to nerf them then they would have started with the Dreadknight as they weren't updated that long ago, but they didn"'t so I highly doubt that the Riptide will be needed. If anything it'll get cheaper like the Dreadknight did.

Oh hey look. It's still going! Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:
Oh hey look. It's still going! Lol.

Well, I wouldn't say that it's still going as is, it has just devolved to the usual "my experience vs your experience" talks, and not, you know, discussing things from a general viewpoint.

But, what don't we do in the pursuit of lols?

So what can we all agree on?

IA needs a price hike?
Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova?
3++ should be 4++ at best?
Markers should be 1 counter = -1 cover?
Ethereal power should be Ld test?
Riptide base cost could be increased if HBC is better?

Boniface wrote:
Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova?

Can Marines take FnP against Gets Hot! rolls? Because if so then this should stay.

"Markers should be 1 counter = -1 cover? "

I don't think this is necessary if the Riptide were appropriately costed.

"Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova? "

Get rid of the gets hot, make the roll an activation roll, and reduce the Riptide by one wound. Having the thing deal wounds to itself is stupid, and an excuse for extra wounds even though this is only like a 1% or so chance of this happening.

Boniface wrote:
So what can we all agree on?

IA needs a price hike?
Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova?
3++ should be 4++ at best?
Markers should be 1 counter = -1 cover?
Ethereal power should be Ld test?
Riptide base cost could be increased if HBC is better?

I wouldn't agree to all of these, but some are good...

Any combination of these: 1) charge 20-25 pt for the IA, 2) change the profile to AP 3, 3) make it 36'' and/or 4) remove the Overcharge Option.

Remove the FnP - I will buy FnP for Greater Nurgle Daemons, not for a flimsy battlesuit - It's simply too much of a gamechanger.

Don't care about the 3++/4++ thing, really.

Agree on Markers and Ethereal powers. Also think Ethereals should only work in units, like the Sanguinary Priest. Maybe one or the other, though.

One problem with Ethereals only affecting their unit is what about Aun'Va? He cannot join other units...

SGTPozy wrote:
One problem with Ethereals only affecting their unit is what about Aun'Va? He cannot join other units...

That can be changed rather easily, though...

Wait. That might give GW a reason to remake him, without his Honour Guard. Glorious new plastic and all.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Wait. That might give GW a reason to remake him, without his Honour Guard. Glorious new plastic and all.

Why without? That would be a wasted opportunity, in my opinion. Imagine a glorious plastic kit like the new Logan Grimnar, with his honor guard leashed to his floating chair and pulling him across the battlefield. And an $80 price tag because reasons.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.

It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.

Dreadknights are exceptionally awesome. They aren't invulnerable in their roll though, Riptides are. If your riptides are actually dying it's because literally an entire 2000 point army is shooting at it and getting a little lucky at the same time (by actually having enough mass firepower in range to reach it and for you failing more saves than you should) Last time I checked armies with 40 laz cannons a turn don't even exist at 2000 points.. Dread-knights take a lot more fire...they walk into range of plasma guns, grav guns, melta guns, even bolters can scrape off some wounds. I've got no problems with the weapons on ether of these boats...just remove FNP and give it a 5++ so it's not ALWAYS taking 2 saves - add the base cost of the FNP to riptide base cost and it's still more survivable than a dreadknight for less points with both being properly armed and it still doesn't have to brave short ranged weaponry! The suggested nerfs are totally justified.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.

Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.

So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.

So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.

LOL I'm only suggesting the riptide be brought down to dread-knight level...everyone goes insane...I field as many dreadknights as I can at all times...trust me...this amount of surviability is enough - riptides have too much and never even need to brave danger. It's my only issue with them.

We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

SGTPozy wrote:
We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.

It has been done to death, there is no need to repeat ourselves and we all know that the Riptide is too good (with the IA), but what you IoM players don't realise is just how cheesy your own Dreadknight is.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.

It has been done to death, there is no need to repeat ourselves and we all know that the Riptide is too good (with the IA), but what you IoM players don't realise is just how cheesy your own Dreadknight is.

I have no problems killing them. How are they cheesy? They are just a big dumb melee machine in a shooting game. The whole GK army needs to get within 24" to do much of anything. That's a pretty serious limitation. They can't hide on the other side of the board and lay waste to entire armies.

SGTPozy wrote:
We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.

Both of the Monstrous-creatures-that-are-actually-walkers-but-for-some-reason-aren't are great models for their costs. Both are great at what they do. Both are devastating provided you use them correctly. Instead of comparing them to each other by means of a direct points costs comparison, why not shift and look at the value provided by each in their own respective army lists.

How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?

 Ignatius wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.

Both of the Monstrous-creatures-that-are-actually-walkers-but-for-some-reason-aren't are great models for their costs. Both are great at what they do. Both are devastating provided you use them correctly. Instead of comparing them to each other by means of a direct points costs comparison, why not shift and look at the value provided by each in their own respective army lists.

How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?

The Dreadknight provides good value, but the Riptide provides INSANE value.

I can prove that Dreadknights aren't as bad at least anecdotally, because my weak codex BA doesn't instantly fold to them. The dreadknight has to come over and risk being assaulted or shot by grav, etc. Riptides basically don't ever have to risk themselves.

Having run my Y'vahra riptide yesterday my opponent was actually alot happier at it only being 4 wounds and having a base cost of 55 Points more than an Ion Accelerator riptide. Admittedly the Y'vahra can do 2 AP2 flamers and has a haywire main gun, but its cripplingly shorter range put it right in the enemies lines.

Which led me to believe that 4 wounds for a riptide wouldnt be too potent, and either up the cost of the IA or drop the range to where you become more at risk in using it.

 Ignatius wrote:

Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.

How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?

To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.

To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.

Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.

It has been done to death, there is no need to repeat ourselves and we all know that the Riptide is too good (with the IA), but what you IoM players don't realise is just how cheesy your own Dreadknight is.

I know it's cheesy. Monstrous Creatures in general are cheesy with 2+ saves. There are degrees of cheese though...Theres plain old american cheese (like a drop pod) so cheap and so tasty. Theres Cheddar Jack (Dreadknights) Shooting and assault combined in a nice cheesy package and then there is Gouda (riptides) Such stinky cheese that it doesn't even taste good unless you melt it (set it on fire.) Point is there is cheese everywhere but some cheese stinks more than others. Wave Serpent>Wraithknight>Riptide>IK (mainly because of the stomp rule.)