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Some good news from this tragedy is that pressure is being put on pro-militant politicians in Pakistan now. And there seems to be somewhat more co-operation between Afghanistan and Pakistan now.

 Da Boss wrote:
Some good news from this tragedy is that pressure is being put on pro-militant politicians in Pakistan now. And there seems to be somewhat more co-operation between Afghanistan and Pakistan now.

Is Pakistan going into Peshawar Valley?

I didn't read anything about that, just that their relationship had improved and they were going to co-operate on dealing with militants who use the border for cover.

That'll be the Peshawar Valley region mostly

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

 whembly wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

This^^

I'm as against Religion as anyone else, but if all religions miraculously disappeared by Wednesday next week, mankind would just find another excuse to kill each other on Friday.

Just want to throw out that certain phrases in the Quran/Koran are used/exploited to justify the fight.

And certain phrases of the bible are used to justify hatred and bigotry.

PhantomViper wrote:


This^^

I'm as against Religion as anyone else, but if all religions miraculously disappeared by Wednesday next week, mankind would just find another excuse to kill each other on Friday.

This.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Ok, your talking out of your ass now.

Native Americans fought wars all the time with each other. Religion had nothing to do with it. It was all about hunting territory, horses, etc...

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait had nothing to do with religion. It was about oil.

Hilter's conquest of Europe had nothing to do with religion.

Pol Pot's extermination of his people had nothing to do with religion.

There are COUNTLESS examples of violence throughout history that had nothing at all to do with religion. Religion is nothing more then a tool that humans use to justify SOME of the violence that is already in there hearts.

You want to keep casting it as the boogey-man that causes everyones woes, go right ahead. There will only be one fool in that room though.

 whembly wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

Getting rid of humanity might stop it XD

 Asherian Command wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

Getting rid of humanity might stop it XD

Get your finger off the trigger button of the virus bomb....be warned.....I have been trained by Zim......and a very loud voice to call for a medic for you

 Jihadin wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

Getting rid of humanity might stop it XD

Get your finger off the trigger button of the virus bomb....be warned.....I have been trained by Zim......and a very loud voice to call for a medic for you

Good luck surviving the life eater virus XD

I see you forgot who Zim was......

PhantomViper wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

This^^

I'm as against Religion as anyone else, but if all religions miraculously disappeared by Wednesday next week, mankind would just find another excuse to kill each other on Friday.

While all of this is true, I believe that if you got rid of religion, the level of violence, and the excuses for war would go down considerably. If religious beliefs had been wiped out by the Romans, and there was no religion at all from the Fall till now, the Crusades would never have happened, as trade is profitable for damn near everyone, and there really aren't too many natural resources in the ME that Europeans would've wanted at the time, that couldn't be got for cheaper at home... Europe also wasn't really in the "colonization" mode yet, since the Treaties of Westphalia hadn't occurred yet. Speaking of Treaty of Westphalia, if THAT war happens, it looks a whole lot different without religion involved.

Yes, when we look at 20th century conflicts, nearly ALL wars or "police actions" are over some form of economic interest, as opposed to, "they think differently from us, they're beasts... let's enlighten them!"

 Asherian Command wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
religion is the driver of hostility, greed it's lifeblood. those two things are the only reason we have war in this world.

Religion is often used as an excuse.

Mankind doing horrible things in the name of Religion, is still mankind doing horrible things.

Getting rid of Religion won't stop these horrible acts.

Getting rid of humanity might stop it XD

I believe this is meant in jest, but that IS the only way we will ever be completely without war.
to...expand....upon my earlier statement, Greed is the real reason for any hostility. to use some of the examples given by djones,
native americans fighting over land, that's wanting land, greed.
fighting over oil is an obvious one.
greed is the true force behind hostility. without it, we would not exist, however. with out desire to care for, to live for and to love for one's self, humanity ceases. it is, indeed, a shame. but war is as much a part of humanity as my arm is a part of me, more os even because if someone wanted to they could remove my arm from me.
religion is an, and indeed the primary, excuse humanity uses to kill itself. I will admit that my previous statement was flawed, and that may come down to it beig written at two am (although I don't like using that as an excuse for falsehood)
If religion were eliminated, say, If every single human being suddenly had religion, the idea thereof and any relative materials etc etc deleted, we would find other excuses to kill each other. we always have. It's part of what makes us human. but what is the most common excuse used? religion.
the expression "'tis not a gun that kills but the man wielding it" fits well here. If it weren't used as an excuse to kill (and wrong in so many ways) I would have no problem with it. but the point is, it IS used to kill, but in a different way then guns or weapons. where a gun is used only to eliminate life, religion is a rallying point for those with guns and weapons.

in conclusion, my former statement, I will admit, was bullgak, but I stand to the principle that religion does nothing to help the "problem." If an inherent trait of humanity, the desire to kill which is a further extension of greed, can be called so.
but the true cause of hostility is said greed. the desire for power, for land, for money, for blood. these are what lead the human race to damnation.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
If religious beliefs had been wiped out by the Romans, and there was no religion at all from the Fall till now, the Crusades would never have happened, as trade is profitable for damn near everyone

If the Romans had wiped out religion, would there have been Jews in Arabia to influence Muhammad and lead to the creation of Islam in the first place? No Islam, no crusade. However, what would have happened in place of it? No way we can know, or even make accurate predictions.

Should have stayed with Paganism

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
If religious beliefs had been wiped out by the Romans, and there was no religion at all from the Fall till now, the Crusades would never have happened, as trade is profitable for damn near everyone

If the Romans had wiped out religion, would there have been Jews in Arabia to influence Muhammad and lead to the creation of Islam in the first place? No Islam, no crusade. However, what would have happened in place of it? No way we can know, or even make accurate predictions.

The plagues would of still happened the renassiance would of also never happened. Human history would have the dark ages last till the 1500s. Religion helped save the west. Stop kidding yourselves people. The first scholars were monks, all recorded history was made by monks!

The roman empire would of still fallen. The Black Plague would of still slaughtered 2/3s of the world. Infact even more people would of died.

I am sorry but if you claim (not you hybrid, but I am talking to Ensis) that religion is so evil you are inherently forgetting humans will take any good thing and turn it into a cause of evil. For example. Science. Guess who commited henious acts in the name of Science? Doctor Death, or you know the nazi death camps where they experimented on jews to make super soldiers. THe United States During Project MKUltra? Or how about the henious acts that science has taken said studies you know the studies that had hundreds of thousands of peoples deaths responsible for the research, and we use it without consent of the people who suffered and survived these horror?

Hell buddhist monks have slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people. No group of people has not committed a crime against humanity. (just read up on it)

The Muslim religion in general has been well quite peaceful especially during the crusades. Infact the Crusades were mainly political, anyone claiming they aren't know nothing about the Crusades. I have studied the crusades for a ungodly amount of time.

 Jihadin wrote:
Should have stayed with Paganism

I agree with you there. Christianity forced so much bullgak onto Western society that we're only now coming out of (or starting to anways)

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Should have stayed with Paganism

I agree with you there. Christianity forced so much bullgak onto Western society that we're only now coming out of (or starting to anways)

If I remember correctly Christianity is a combination of pagan ideals.

We came out of it religion affecting us as much during the Renassiance, stop making things up.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Should have stayed with Paganism

I agree with you there. Christianity forced so much bullgak onto Western society that we're only now coming out of (or starting to anways)

If I remember correctly Christianity is a combination of pagan ideals.

We came out of it religion affecting us as much during the Renassiance, stop making things up.

It's true, many of the religiously based holidays are based on pagan ones.

However, what I'm talking about is how, during the 8th-12th centuries, Scandinavian women could own property (something Christianity basically did away with), initiate divorce (something Christianity did away with), vote on political matter (well... no one could really vote in the rest of Christendom...)

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Should have stayed with Paganism

I agree with you there. Christianity forced so much bullgak onto Western society that we're only now coming out of (or starting to anways)

If I remember correctly Christianity is a combination of pagan ideals.

We came out of it religion affecting us as much during the Renassiance, stop making things up.

It's true, many of the religiously based holidays are based on pagan ones.

However, what I'm talking about is how, during the 8th-12th centuries, Scandinavian women could own property (something Christianity basically did away with), initiate divorce (something Christianity did away with), vote on political matter (well... no one could really vote in the rest of Christendom...)

You could blame just about anything on christainity.
But you could also say that it did help humanity.

I.E. The crusades allowed for the Renaissance to happen.

The Christidoem thing happened because of political leanings not because of religious doctrines. They were changed so they could hold political sway.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Should have stayed with Paganism

I agree with you there. Christianity forced so much bullgak onto Western society that we're only now coming out of (or starting to anways)

If I remember correctly Christianity is a combination of pagan ideals.

We came out of it religion affecting us as much during the Renassiance, stop making things up.

It's true, many of the religiously based holidays are based on pagan ones.

However, what I'm talking about is how, during the 8th-12th centuries, Scandinavian women could own property (something Christianity basically did away with), initiate divorce (something Christianity did away with), vote on political matter (well... no one could really vote in the rest of Christendom...)

You could blame just about anything on christainity.
But you could also say that it did help humanity.

I.E. The crusades allowed for the Renaissance to happen.

The Christidoem thing happened because of political leanings not because of religious doctrines. They were changed so they could hold political sway.

Agreed, however it's pretty undeniable that in many ways, it has been a detriment, as has nearly ALL religion at some point in time or other.

 djones520 wrote:
People can grand stand all they want about the political reasons about why we're over there.

This is why I fight. I'll be in Afghanistan in 4 months. I'm so looking forward to helping some helicopters erase these fethheads.

Edit: Apparently the censor didn't catch that one.

Go fight the good fight dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
As many problems as I have with the west I like it far better then all the stuff they got going on in their countries.

I am not sure I understand what you mean, and how it is related to what I wrote.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Religion of peace my rear patuckus.
Im not going to grand stands and white knight about how "But not all muslims are like this"
If a religion advocates, even in this day, the killing of a man who defaced their so called prophet then it is not a religion of peace.

Oh certainly, this whole “Religion of peace” moniker is beyond ridiculous. Even the most peaceful of Muslims will agree that Muhammad was a general in wars, they will just argue back that those were wars of self-defense. But “Islam is the religion of war of self-defense” does not have the same ring to it. I get that they are trying to say that they are Muslim and they are peaceful, but “Islam is a religion of peace”, despite the best intentions, is still such a grotesque hyperbole than it is doing more harm than good.

 Ashiraya wrote:
This is... obscene. What's going on in the heads of those people?

Religion. It can also work with politics, racism, and basically anything that will make you dehumanize people and be ready to sacrifice them for a “greater purpose”.

It isn't religion. Religion is simply a tool for their leaders to rile and corral them up with greater ease. Angry ignorant people are always going to angry and ignorant things. Removing their religion entirely would simply rile people up more, and even if you managed to remove it for good, they'd still exist. They just probably wouldn't be as organized.

It isn't religion. Religion is simply a tool for their leaders to rile and corral them up with greater ease. Angry ignorant people are always going to angry and ignorant things. Removing their religion entirely would simply rile people up more, and even if you managed to remove it for good, they'd still exist. They just probably wouldn't be as organized.

It is more of a cloak than a tool. They hide the entirety of their truth behind a veil so that is used to drive more than it is used as a battering tool. People are the tools. Religion is the just paint on the outside of the tool.

Anyone that says Christians are blood firsty don't know the first thing about Christianity. Being a christian is more than just saying you are. If you say killing someone in the name of God, clearly aren't doing it in the name of god.

I advocate everyone join us Bacchanites.....Sex and wine, wine and sex, and more sex and wine

 Jihadin wrote:
I advocate everyone join us Bacchanites.....Sex and wine, wine and sex, and more sex and wine

Sounds good.

Historically religion has not been the motivator for violence and wars, but religion has often served as the unifying force that brought the people together. And that is not as much a result of any ideological teachings of any certain religion as much as it is the fault of our ingrained herd mentality of "us" vs "them".

People always fight against others for many reasons, but to have an effective fight you need something that brings people together. People fight for each other, that's what motivates and brings them together. They fight for their god, they fight for their king, their flag, their hometown, their ideology, their country, anything that ties you to the guy fighting next to you and makes the guy on the other side different from you.

Everyone bouncing all over with point-counter point on religion citing Crusades, Jihads, Prosecution and what not. Pick a time period (like the current time frame) and stick to it.

No.