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Because that +1 means he will dispel it EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I don't think a +1 advantage is that muchI've rarely been dispelled by 1 over my roll. (+2 if he brought balefire) the +2 can be but still use other spells to bleed his dispel dice or 6 dice it and hope for the best.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And that is 1000 points you won't get. In a tournament setting against an army who has extremely limited ways of killing him reliably. I.E. Banishmen or superspells(Mindrazor doesn't count as he's got +1 to dispel over anyone except Morathi/Teclis/Supercasters) that allows him to take off over 1000 points. So the UL layer has the potential to take 2600 off you vs the 1400 you can take off him. That's not a good game.

Cost =/= balance. That is what you fail to understand. He could cost 2000 points and still not be a balanced model unless they make it so that every army can kill him. Non LoC Beastmen. Brets(To an extent). Skaven. Lizardmen. Non Khaine Elves. These are all armies that Nagash has the ability to walk through unscathed, regardless of points levels.

I've watched people kill him. It's nowhere near impossible. Yes he heals himself, but then he's not casting much of anything else. One wound per spell, at minimum two dice per spell (unless he's chancing broken concentration).

Some of your armies are bad matchups against him? Awww...muffin. A bad matchup? Those NEVER happened before the End Times. However will you deal?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And that is 1000 points you won't get. In a tournament setting against an army who has extremely limited ways of killing him reliably. I.E. Banishmen or superspells(Mindrazor doesn't count as he's got +1 to dispel over anyone except Morathi/Teclis/Supercasters) that allows him to take off over 1000 points. So the UL layer has the potential to take 2600 off you vs the 1400 you can take off him. That's not a good game.

Cost =/= balance. That is what you fail to understand. He could cost 2000 points and still not be a balanced model unless they make it so that every army can kill him. Non LoC Beastmen. Brets(To an extent). Skaven. Lizardmen. Non Khaine Elves. These are all armies that Nagash has the ability to walk through unscathed, regardless of points levels.

I've watched people kill him. It's nowhere near impossible. Yes he heals himself, but then he's not casting much of anything else. One wound per spell, at minimum two dice per spell (unless he's chancing broken concentration).

Some of your armies are bad matchups against him? Awww...muffin. A bad matchup? Those NEVER happened before the End Times. However will you deal?

You've seen him die. That must translate to how the game works worldwide!. I've seen 30 white lions from a unit of 30 fail their intitiative checks against a purple sun, that must make the spell amazing against elves!

It's not bad matchups, Super Models exclude any army without cannons from competitive play. Those models are good for a fluff game, but using them in generic warhammer is just a bad move.

I try to play elves with no superspells or bolt throwers in a MSU manner. Like I've done since the 6th ed book. That list can't deal with Nagash. I try to play Nonmindrazor elves, because six-dicing spells is for chumps. That doesn't work. I try my Beastmen. That doesn't work. I try my Skaven, and the only tactic I have to kill him is to Cracks call him.

How is he balanced? 1000 points is a bargain if it excludes even 1 army from play.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


I try to play elves with no superspells or bolt throwers in a MSU manner. Like I've done since the 6th ed book.

Oh you lying sack of GAK. September 13th 2014 in Subject: My thoughts on End Times: Nagash. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/613977/7199761.page#7199761

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Invigorating? Did you SEE the lists I'd run for it?

Umm, I don't think I want to. Knowing that you're a competitive gamer, you'd probably do some stupid stuff for it. I simply run it for fluff and narrative purposes, and for fun mostly. Plus, I run straight TK, nothing VC included.

My normal army dances around, avoiding combat, and dwellersing stuff off. In End Times, that becomes a dancy, avoidy, dwellers-y, final transmutation-y, and purple sun-y filth.

Bold & Underlines mine.

Don't you dare say you try to play elves with no superspells here when you have clearly stated your NORMAL build avoids combat & dwellerses stuff off.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


I try to play elves with no superspells or bolt throwers in a MSU manner. Like I've done since the 6th ed book.

Oh you lying sack of GAK. September 13th 2014 in Subject: My thoughts on End Times: Nagash. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/613977/7199761.page#7199761

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Invigorating? Did you SEE the lists I'd run for it?

Umm, I don't think I want to. Knowing that you're a competitive gamer, you'd probably do some stupid stuff for it. I simply run it for fluff and narrative purposes, and for fun mostly. Plus, I run straight TK, nothing VC included.

My normal army dances around, avoiding combat, and dwellersing stuff off. In End Times, that becomes a dancy, avoidy, dwellers-y, final transmutation-y, and purple sun-y filth.

Bold & Underlines mine.

Don't you dare say you try to play elves with no superspells here when you have clearly stated your NORMAL build avoids combat & dwellerses stuff off.

I'm not allowed to change it up? I've got seven lists. One involves dwellers and a warlock bus, this I admit. I used it, I hated it as it needed no skill. Since then I've bettered myself as a player. But for the last 3 months at least, I've been playing with a no fast cav, no warlock, no bolt thrower Fire coven delf list. Which just happens to be the list I used in the 7th ed book, sans pendant, unless I felt bent.

The lists I submit here are one-offs.

No you are not allowed to say youtry to play "since 6th" with no superspells then say your "normal" build is to dance & dwellers. Those things are mutually exclusive. If it was a one-off it wouldn't be your "normal" build.

When someone says it is their "normal" build I take it as "This is the build I normally run. I run this build more than anything else"

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
No you are not allowed to say youtry to play "since 6th" with no superspells then say your "normal" build is to dance & dwellers. Those things are mutually exclusive. If it was a one-off it wouldn't be your "normal" build.

When someone says it is their "normal" build I take it as "This is the build I normally run. I run this build more than anything else"

It was my normal build at the time. Which was a period when I played rarely due to the staleness of the game. I.E. Warrior heavy. I didn't want to switch to Undead or Empire at the time, and the Warlock bus was the tool I had to do that. Even though the build was designed to run around, avoid combats and cast dwellers, I cast it a mighty two times in a four month period. Because I realised other ways I could get points without resorting to chump tactics.

Here's a fact for you. Outside of Mindrazor, I've cast a grand total of 6 superspells since the start of 8th in serious gaming. And the only reason Mindrazor was cast so often is because it was the only way Black Guard could fight Skullcrushers at the time,

 thedarkavenger wrote:


You've seen him die. That must translate to how the game works worldwide!. I've seen 30 white lions from a unit of 30 fail their intitiative checks against a purple sun, that must make the spell amazing against elves!

It's not bad matchups, Super Models exclude any army without cannons from competitive play. Those models are good for a fluff game, but using them in generic warhammer is just a bad move.

I try to play elves with no superspells or bolt throwers in a MSU manner. Like I've done since the 6th ed book. That list can't deal with Nagash. I try to play Nonmindrazor elves, because six-dicing spells is for chumps. That doesn't work. I try my Beastmen. That doesn't work. I try my Skaven, and the only tactic I have to kill him is to Cracks call him.

How is he balanced? 1000 points is a bargain if it excludes even 1 army from play.

Cannons...or screams, or catapults, or bolt throwers. Skinks or trueflight arrows. Metal magic. 6-spells. Leadbelchers. Failing all that you can turn him into a frog.

The key here is that Nagash is a skew build that requires a different way of thinking. Just like tackling avoidance lists or skink traps does. You need to learn to play a new game, which is tough for players who lack the creativity and ingenuity to do anything save regurgitate the same tired strategies over and over again.

You say you run MSU avoidance DE? That's nice for you. Funny thing about skew builds is that they're very rock-paper-scissors, and just because most of the field is paper doesn't mean you won't get smashed in the face with a rock every now and then.

Besides...what's your strategy against gutstars and the like with your MSU army? Do you give up in the same way, just because you can't get ~1,000 points off of them? Do you pound your fists against the wall and cry to the TO to ban it because you're not smart enough to come up with a solution? Or did you suck it up and go figure it out?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


You've seen him die. That must translate to how the game works worldwide!. I've seen 30 white lions from a unit of 30 fail their intitiative checks against a purple sun, that must make the spell amazing against elves!

It's not bad matchups, Super Models exclude any army without cannons from competitive play. Those models are good for a fluff game, but using them in generic warhammer is just a bad move.

I try to play elves with no superspells or bolt throwers in a MSU manner. Like I've done since the 6th ed book. That list can't deal with Nagash. I try to play Nonmindrazor elves, because six-dicing spells is for chumps. That doesn't work. I try my Beastmen. That doesn't work. I try my Skaven, and the only tactic I have to kill him is to Cracks call him.

How is he balanced? 1000 points is a bargain if it excludes even 1 army from play.

Cannons...or screams, or catapults, or bolt throwers. Skinks or trueflight arrows. Metal magic. 6-spells. Leadbelchers. Failing all that you can turn him into a frog.

The key here is that Nagash is a skew build that requires a different way of thinking. Just like tackling avoidance lists or skink traps does. You need to learn to play a new game, which is tough for players who lack the creativity and ingenuity to do anything save regurgitate the same tired strategies over and over again.

You say you run MSU avoidance DE? That's nice for you. Funny thing about skew builds is that they're very rock-paper-scissors, and just because most of the field is paper doesn't mean you won't get smashed in the face with a rock every now and then.

Besides...what's your strategy against gutstars and the like with your MSU army? Do you give up in the same way, just because you can't get ~1,000 points off of them? Do you pound your fists against the wall and cry to the TO to ban it because you're not smart enough to come up with a solution? Or did you suck it up and go figure it out?

Shas-O and I have both proven that Bolt throwers don't do ANYTHING to Nagash. All he needs to do is cast to LoVamps spells and the damage is negated.

And Nagash isn't just a question of not taking 1000 points off of your opponent. You then have to take as much of that 1400 off them whilst conserving points from Nagash. Which is hard, as he has no weaknesses beyond cannons or superspells.

Just because I proved that doesn't do a lot of wounds mean I agree with it being useless.. If nagash is casting LoV he isn't summoning which is where his true strength lies.

if nagash wants to sit there & cast lore of vampires all game & basically be a stupid expensive caster lord let him. If I stop nagash from summoning new units I have severly reduced his effectiveness.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Just because I proved that doesn't do a lot of wounds mean I agree with it being useless.. If nagash is casting LoV he isn't summoning which is where his true strength lies.

if nagash wants to sit there & cast lore of vampires all game & basically be a stupid expensive caster lord let him. If I stop nagash from summoning new units I have severly reduced his effectiveness.

He can do it at the end of the phase, after you waste dice to stop him summoning. He doesn't have to regain wounds first. He can leave a dice or two at the end of the phase to get them back. If you stop him summoning, he's unkillable. Stop him healing, he's a force multiplier.

So uhm, I'm trying to understand; you are saying that you are limiting your list options, and then you complain that you can't find a solution to a specific model that came out with an "expansion"?

Vetril wrote:
So uhm, I'm trying to understand; you are saying that you are limiting your list options, and then you complain that you can't find a solution to a specific model that came out with an "expansion"?

I'm saying that I've gotten my army selection limited for me. There should be nothing in the game that takes me from taking the msu infantry fire coven other than my own common sense,

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Vetril wrote:
So uhm, I'm trying to understand; you are saying that you are limiting your list options, and then you complain that you can't find a solution to a specific model that came out with an "expansion"?

I'm saying that I've gotten my army selection limited for me. There should be nothing in the game that takes me from taking the msu infantry fire coven other than my own common sense,

And nothing does. Except your own desire to play in that competitive of an environment. GW doesn't care about the tournament scene. You choose to play in the tournament scene then bitch that GW didn't write rules designed for how you play. Oops.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Vetril wrote:
So uhm, I'm trying to understand; you are saying that you are limiting your list options, and then you complain that you can't find a solution to a specific model that came out with an "expansion"?

I'm saying that I've gotten my army selection limited for me. There should be nothing in the game that takes me from taking the msu infantry fire coven other than my own common sense,

And nothing does. Except your own desire to play in that competitive of an environment. GW doesn't care about the tournament scene. You choose to play in the tournament scene then bitch that GW didn't write rules designed for how you play. Oops.

It's not even competitive play. I can't rock up to my local club with the army list style I've played since 6th ed due to models like Nagash, KFA, and all 4 Malekith the gakker kings.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Shas-O and I have both proven that Bolt throwers don't do ANYTHING to Nagash. All he needs to do is cast to LoVamps spells and the damage is negated.

And Nagash isn't just a question of not taking 1000 points off of your opponent. You then have to take as much of that 1400 off them whilst conserving points from Nagash. Which is hard, as he has no weaknesses beyond cannons or superspells.

Not true. You proved that bolt throwers can chip a few wounds off him on average per turn. Every wound is 1-2 dice he can't use to summon more units, which in turn is more resources that you can throw into making points. It's a race, essentially. Just because there are no silver bullets for taking down Nagash doesn't mean that he can't be dragged down by anything. He only has a 4+4++.

Also remember that we're talking about AVERAGE wounds here. This doesn't account for the fact that dice rolls are normally distributed. There is a very good chance that your dice will do MORE than an average number of wounds, which could cripple Nagash's ability to do much of anything save heal himself. Similar to when he rolls poorly on the winds of magic. He's got tools for mitigating that, yes (hierotitan, casket, forbidden rod, etc.), but all of those tools are much more vulnerable than he is. I'd put bolt throwers into his hierotitan before I put them into him, for instance.

Yes you can. Just say "Hey <PROSPECTIVE_OPPONENT>, would you mind not using a super character like < SUPERCHARACTER>?"

Just have a discussion with your opponents. If everyone you play with is so adamant about using them then find a new group of people to play with or adapt or find a different game.

From everything you talk about being a "tournament player" you like to bring tough filthy chesese lists. But not that the flavor of the month has changed from Cheddar to Ementaller suddenly you don't want to play that way anymore.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

It's not even competitive play. I can't rock up to my local club with the army list style I've played since 6th ed due to models like Nagash, KFA, and all 4 Malekith the gakker kings.

Nobody else gets to play armies unchanged since 6th edition. Get over it. The game evolves, and GW is a company determined to sell us more miniatures. That necessitates evolving your army and your playstyle at times in response to new threats. Nagash and KFA are both new threats, who can be taken down by most any army. People used to whine about taking down crushers and nurgle princes, and that army loses all the damned time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Yes you can. Just say "Hey <PROSPECTIVE_OPPONENT>, would you mind not using a super character like < SUPERCHARACTER>?"

Just have a discussion with your opponents. If everyone you play with is so adamant about using them then find a new group of people to play with or adapt or find a different game.

No. feth this sentiment. If you don't know how to fight supercharacters then that is YOUR problem. Don't dictate your opponents' lists just because you're a weak general. Learn. Adapt. THINK, for feth's sake. This is a STRATEGY game: use strategy to win.


Edit: this game is also meant to be played with objectives. When you just play battlelines every game yeah...it's hard to fight this kind of horsegak. But when you stick 50 steadfast empire halberdiers into a building and KFA can only fight in half of combat phases it's a very different equation. In the Pacific Northwest we use objectives that require standards to capture for exactly this reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
From everything you talk about being a "tournament player" you like to bring tough filthy chesese lists. But not that the flavor of the month has changed from Cheddar to Ementaller suddenly you don't want to play that way anymore.

"My cheese is competitive warhammer; your cheese is broken and I'll whine to the TO until it gets comped."

@Pirate "No. feth this sentiment. If you don't know how to fight supercharacters then that is YOUR problem. Don't dictate your opponents' lists just because you're a weak general. Learn. Adapt. THINK, for feth's sake. This is a STRATEGY game: use strategy to win. "

See I don't see it that way. I see it as a game and I want to make sure both me & my opponent have fun. I know a guy who knows how to deal with nagash / KFA / Malekith he just doesn't ENJOY it. When anyone plays him you alternate, game 1 you use Big Boys. Game 2 you don't. Everybody wins.

I'm not saying if my opponent says no ET characters I have to bow to his desires I'm saying we can work a compromise to where everyone can enjoy themselves.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
@Pirate "No. feth this sentiment. If you don't know how to fight supercharacters then that is YOUR problem. Don't dictate your opponents' lists just because you're a weak general. Learn. Adapt. THINK, for feth's sake. This is a STRATEGY game: use strategy to win. "

See I don't see it that way. I see it as a game and I want to make sure both me & my opponent have fun. I know a guy who knows how to deal with nagash / KFA / Malekith he just doesn't ENJOY it. When anyone plays him you alternate, game 1 you use Big Boys. Game 2 you don't. Everybody wins.

I'm not saying if my opponent says no ET characters I have to bow to his desires I'm saying we can work a compromise to where everyone can enjoy themselves.

For fun, basement games then yeah...fine. The social contract is that the game is about having fun and rolling dice, and in that environment building consensus is most important.

But "competitive play" isn't about just having fun and rolling dice. It's about creating a challenge scenario wherein each player brings their answer to the question: "2,500 points, BRB rules, these are the scenarios...can you come out on top?"

If you're trying to hem in what others can bring then you're cheating by moving the goalposts. Taking on all comers is part of the challenge, and Nagash and KFA are included in that. If you can't win with them in the field then that's your fault, not theirs. If your present list can't hack it then you need to adapt. If that opens you up against other builds then cool...that's all part of the game.

In fact...I'd go so far as to say that in competitive warhammer the meta IS the game. And right now that meta is KFA and Nagash. Adapt or perish.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

In fact...I'd go so far as to say that in competitive warhammer the meta IS the game. And right now that meta is KFA and Nagash. Adapt or perish.

That's not how competitive warhammer works.

The baseline for competitive forms of anything is a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD and ET magic and super characters don't allow that.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

It's not even competitive play. I can't rock up to my local club with the army list style I've played since 6th ed due to models like Nagash, KFA, and all 4 Malekith the gakker kings.

Well duh. I can't play a dogs of war army anymore. Take a moment to think about that.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

In fact...I'd go so far as to say that in competitive warhammer the meta IS the game. And right now that meta is KFA and Nagash. Adapt or perish.

That's not how competitive warhammer works.

The baseline for competitive forms of anything is a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD and ET magic and super characters don't allow that.

Warhammer has NEVER had a "level playing field" there have always been the top tier & bottom tier. There were always Skaven & beastmen. Dark Elves & Tomb Kings. The game is imbalanced, suck it up & adapt. if you want a perfectly balanced game go play chess. The only imbalance there is who goes 1st.

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

It's not even competitive play. I can't rock up to my local club with the army list style I've played since 6th ed due to models like Nagash, KFA, and all 4 Malekith the gakker kings.

Well duh. I can't play a dogs of war army anymore. Take a moment to think about that.

And I can't fly my dragonat 30 feet+ in the sky so that I can dodge cannons. Or take a level 4 mage with demonic spells anymore.

Or run my combat infantry in a wedge formation.

Haven't we discussed ways to kill Nagash already? Lore of Light....

Anyway, Page 35 Island of Blood rulebook, top left corner of page, "As a final thought , if your opponent has something nesty up his sleeve, its best not to commit your highest level Wizard to earlier dispels - you're going to need his dispel bonus later on, and you won't get it if he fails a dispel roll earlier in the turn."

Just spam lore of light and he will either fail to dispel once, or run out of dice....

Just my opinion tho, TDA just crys to much...

eehh came in wrong time in coversation...bluh

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Haven't we discussed ways to kill Nagash already? Lore of Light....

Anyway, Page 35 Island of Blood rulebook, top left corner of page, "As a final thought , if your opponent has something nesty up his sleeve, its best not to commit your highest level Wizard to earlier dispels - you're going to need his dispel bonus later on, and you won't get it if he fails a dispel roll earlier in the turn."

Just spam lore of light and he will either fail to dispel once, or run out of dice....

Just my opinion tho, TDA just crys to much...

eehh came in wrong time in coversation...bluh

The question isn't just ways to kill him, it's ways to do it reliably. Beyond Morathi, Teclis, or any of the other level 5 casters, relying on Nagash to fail dispelling isn't as solid a plan as people make it out to be.

Playing warhammer isn't just how statistics look. There is random chance to dice in this game, a roll of 1 is still a fail...

Nothing is certain, that's why you have to think your way out of it. If you can not fathom a way around these "super" characters, then you do not possess the skill you claim to have.

On other notes EoT is epic and I hope that the next book is just as epic as khaine was.

All this end times is getting in the way of my competitive Warhammer. Which is SRS BZNSS......so it should all be comped and banned. It upset my carefully chosen list which I've used since about 1995. I use the undead codex.

Is it only the four books or is there more coming?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
All this end times is getting in the way of my competitive Warhammer. Which is SRS BZNSS......so it should all be comped and banned. It upset my carefully chosen list which I've used since about 1995. I use the undead codex.

Is it only the four books or is there more coming?

We don't know numbers but there is heavy implication of at LEAST 5. Book IV being skaven & the final one to be about Archaon.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Playing warhammer isn't just how statistics look. There is random chance to dice in this game, a roll of 1 is still a fail...

Nothing is certain, that's why you have to think your way out of it. If you can not fathom a way around these "super" characters, then you do not possess the skill you claim to have.

On other notes EoT is epic and I hope that the next book is just as epic as khaine was.

I can accept them in warhammer, and that there are counters to them, but not all armies possess those counters. Which is not suitable for a balanced playing field.When I go to my local club, I now only take my double banishment Empire gunline, because it's a hard counter.