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Tacs are great, they just have to be used right. They're flexible, decently durable obsec that can pack a quick melta punch or anything else you'd like to deliver, really. They can be delivered via transport in a lot of ways, more so than most other troop choices, and hurt most other light to medium infantry and assault a few MCs and vehicles to boot.

They just aren't bikes. When you don't have much imagination, mass bikes are more appealing.

As a Tau player, I have to say I'm am pretty envious of a troop choice that is T4, 3+, can take multiple forms of dedicated transport, automatically rallies without being forced to fire snap shots, can take a variety of weapons and doesn't automatically lose every assault it finds itself in.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines suck because boltguns don't anything that other players actually use and power armor is almost as useless as it was in 2nd edition.

And because they don't even have a damn knife, except the special snowflake Space Puppies.

Which we have to buy that knife.

It also has to do with the local META.
In my Local META we tend not to bring the "Broken" Units and when we do we don't SPAM them. The last time we saw and Eldar Player he had 2 Wave Serpents and the Tau Player has 1 Riptide.

Now I do run a Plasma-SPAM List [33+ Plasma Weapons] and I don't bring it out much because when I do not many local Armies can stand up to it and I don't have a single 2+ Save. The whole army is T4, 3+ Save and one 4++ Save.

Lucky, lucky you. At least GW killed Vendetta spam dead.

Space Puppies are still the only ones privileged enough to buy a knife. If not for smashbane and grav stars, Space Wolves would totally dominate all loyalist marines once again. I know the new BA codex is relatively helpless against them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines suck because boltguns don't anything that other players actually use and power armor is almost as useless as it was in 2nd edition.

And because they don't even have a damn knife, except the special snowflake Space Puppies.

Which we have to buy that knife.

It also has to do with the local META.
In my Local META we tend not to bring the "Broken" Units and when we do we don't SPAM them. The last time we saw and Eldar Player he had 2 Wave Serpents and the Tau Player has 1 Riptide.

Now I do run a Plasma-SPAM List [33+ Plasma Weapons] and I don't bring it out much because when I do not many local Armies can stand up to it and I don't have a single 2+ Save. The whole army is T4, 3+ Save and one 4++ Save.

Lucky, lucky you. At least GW killed Vendetta spam dead.

Space Puppies are still the only ones privileged enough to buy a knife. If not for smashbane and grav stars, Space Wolves would totally dominate all loyalist marines once again. I know the new BA codex is relatively helpless against them.

Blood Angels Tactical Marines are probably the Best Assault Based Tactical Marines in the game now. They can now easily pull off S5+, I5+ and FNP easily.

FNP is not easy, as priests are now HQs.

They're still going to be obliterated on the Space Puppy counter attack. Nothing has changed from 5th in that Space Wolves basically negate close combat units with their schlubs. I still don't understand why GW thinks that's fair, but I just pretend I'm the IG against them, and it sometimes works out.

Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with Tac's, in fact, they have more capabilities and have more effective weaponry and special rules than they've ever had before. Rapid Fire weapons have received a significant boost, combat squads allow a degree of split-fire capability and to allow a single squad to engage two different objectives or capitalize on different transport options (e.g. buying a razorback and sticking the flamer and pfist in there while the missile launcher and comrades hang back). They're only 14pts each now, cheaper than ever. ATSKNF is still a hugely powerful ability. They can typically vastly outshoot dedicated assault specialists (and still at least usually inflict some harm back in CC even against many CC specialists) and can drastically outfight shooting specialists (while still being able to hit back reliably even if stuck at shooting ranges). Tac's are also typically notably cheaper than many specialists and especially most other units that can both outshoot and outfight them. They're wonderfully capable units.

I think there are some metagame issues in regards to escalating firepower (but these do not affect Tac's alone) and unit stats, along with alternative units that are simply clearly superior investments (Bikes), but that's not necessarily reflective of the Tac's in and of themselves.

Too many people I think were too used to the 3+ save being inviolable, and they could park marines in the middle of the board, in the open, and expect them to largely survive a round of shooting. Particularly in older editions this was very much the case, and that was silly. There was a time when T4 and 3+sv was pretty much auto-pilot, and that's a good thing that that's gone.

Other infantry options also are much more capable in relation to a Tac squad now, the game no longer has basic IG squads that cost 115pts after kit for example, Tac's were once simply clearly superior to most other units even in cost effectiveness in other units specialties, and this is no longer the case, and some perceive that as Tac's no longer being good, which is just not true.

The one real issue I think Tac's have, which isn't specifically unique to them but rather affects many units, is that transports are often vital (not only for their protection, but to get to where they need to be), and the current transport rules allow no assaulting out of them even if the transport did not move. For a unit like Tac's, which need to outfight things they cannot outshoot, this is a big capability loss.

Some things that may make Tac's appear less useful I think are alternatives. Bikes, particularly for C:SM where they can be made Troops, are just too overcapable. The bikes get a lot for the extra points, you get T5, Relentless, twin linked guns, at-will 4+ cover saves, incredible mobility, a Hammer of Wrath attack, more flexibility in unit size without sacrificing special weapons loadout and more total weapons upgrades (can take 2 specials + a heavy), no slowing down through terrain, and a fully kitted bike squad only coming out to ~30pts more than a typical Tac squad with a transport. Why on earth *wouldn't* you run the bikes instead? Why would you ever bother with either Assault Marines or Tac's next to the bikes?

Martel732 wrote:
FNP is not easy, as priests are now HQs.

They're still going to be obliterated on the Space Puppy counter attack. Nothing has changed from 5th in that Space Wolves basically negate close combat units with their schlubs. I still don't understand why GW thinks that's fair, but I just pretend I'm the IG against them, and it sometimes works out.

You still can buy a HQ and Poof you have FNP, 3-4 Flamer Attacks and then get to complete your Assault before I can attack.

As for the others:
>Iron hands can get an Army wide FNP 6+
>Crimson fist get to Re-Roll ones with their Bolters/Heavy Bolters [This can go along way to mitigating the "Bolter Issue"]
>The Ultra-Smurffs have a really nasty One use power for Re-rolls iirc, two with the right reroll.
>Dark Angels can pull off a huge RoF and possible 4++ if set up correctly.

Each Armies Tactical Squad has its own Strength and weaknesses, it is just a matter of exploiting the Strength and working out how to mitigate the Weakness.

Nothing has changed from 5th or 6th. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. Just because I have cheaper BA now, is not going to prevent them from being mowed down wholesale.

The problems you state ARE reflective of tacs because in a war game, everything is relative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
FNP is not easy, as priests are now HQs.

They're still going to be obliterated on the Space Puppy counter attack. Nothing has changed from 5th in that Space Wolves basically negate close combat units with their schlubs. I still don't understand why GW thinks that's fair, but I just pretend I'm the IG against them, and it sometimes works out.

You still can buy a HQ and Poof you have FNP, 3-4 Flamer Attacks and then get to complete your Assault before I can attack.

As for the others:
>Iron hands can get an Army wide FNP 6+
>Crimson fist get to Re-Roll ones with their Bolters/Heavy Bolters [This can go along way to mitigating the "Bolter Issue"]
>The Ultra-Smurffs have a really nasty One use power for Re-rolls iirc, two with the right reroll.
>Dark Angels can pull off a huge RoF and possible 4++ if set up correctly.

Each Armies Tactical Squad has its own Strength and weaknesses, it is just a matter of exploiting the Strength and working out how to mitigate the Weakness.

We've had this discussion before. The only thing that keeps grey hunters from being abusive is that power armor has been turned into tissue paper. Extra CC weapon and counter attack on a troop is not fair at all.

Martel732 wrote:
Nothing has changed from 5th or 6th. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. Just because I have cheaper BA now, is not going to prevent them from being mowed down wholesale.

The problems you state ARE reflective of tacs because in a war game, everything is relative.

You also forgot
>Command Squads
>Sternguard
>Vanguard Vets
>Assault Marines
>Devastators
>Characters in Power Armor
On to the 2+ Saves, witch I wont bother listing because this is an AP2/AP3 Weapon issue that invalidates 90% of the Marines save unless they are loaded up with Storm Shields.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
We've had this discussion before. The only thing that keeps grey hunters from being abusive is that power armor has been turned into tissue paper. Extra CC weapon and counter attack on a troop is not fair at all.

Yes and you have become a broken record about.

Every Reason you Quote as Tactical Squads "Suck" are the same problems that affect Grey Hunters.
>No "Real" Effective Ranged Firepower.
>The abundance of AP3 Weapons

My Counter-Attack has actually killed off more of my Grey Hunter Squads than anything Else. People don't Assault Me, they throw buckers of High Strength AP3 weapons. I have only gotten my Counter Attack off once since the now book dropped and that was to Genestealers who had no choice. And I did not get to use Counter Attack because I received 12 Rending hits before I could swing back.

So can we stop the "Grey Hunters are the most broken unit out there" chant and move onto the discussion at hand.

Suffer from being generalists in a game where specialists rock.

They also suffer from being defensive in a game where offense rocks.

Anything you tank shots from on turn 1 still has 4-6 more attempts to try and kill you, not including assault.

Anything you kill on turn 1 STOPS TRYING TO KILL YOU. This is why alpha strike lists like drop pods and GK shunts and the like do well. Decent target priority can give the non-alpha striking player a huge disadvantage right from the word go.

The BA heavy flamer option is very helpful, but piling out of a rhino 1" away from an enemy and not being able to punch them means they're just a kinda-tough shooting unit. And with 1 attack each, they have hilariously little killing power in melee, and are prone to getting stuck in deadlocked combats, where the opposing squad is undoubtedly less expensive. If they were more expensive, they would have killed the marines already.

If assault from rhino/razorbacks ever got fixed, I'd view tacticals a bit more favorably, since they could actually CHARGE someone, instead of getting out and getting shot or preemptive charged instead.

Also I take issue with how easy it is to wipe entire marine squads with decent strength good ap decent range guns that cost less than the marine squad itself.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Suffer from being generalists in a game where specialists rock.

They also suffer from being defensive in a game where offense rocks.

Anything you tank shots from on turn 1 still has 4-6 more attempts to try and kill you, not including assault.

Anything you kill on turn 1 STOPS TRYING TO KILL YOU. This is why alpha strike lists like drop pods and GK shunts and the like do well. Decent target priority can give the non-alpha striking player a huge disadvantage right from the word go.

The BA heavy flamer option is very helpful, but piling out of a rhino 1" away from an enemy and not being able to punch them means they're just a kinda-tough shooting unit. And with 1 attack each, they have hilariously little killing power in melee, and are prone to getting stuck in deadlocked combats, where the opposing squad is undoubtedly less expensive. If they were more expensive, they would have killed the marines already.

If assault from rhino/razorbacks ever got fixed, I'd view tacticals a bit more favorably, since they could actually CHARGE someone, instead of getting out and getting shot or preemptive charged instead.

Also I take issue with how easy it is to wipe entire marine squads with decent strength good ap decent range guns that cost less than the marine squad itself.

^This Mostly

"People don't Assault Me, they throw buckers of High Strength AP3 weapons"

I don't think anything else needs to be said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Suffer from being generalists in a game where specialists rock.

They also suffer from being defensive in a game where offense rocks.

Anything you tank shots from on turn 1 still has 4-6 more attempts to try and kill you, not including assault.

Anything you kill on turn 1 STOPS TRYING TO KILL YOU. This is why alpha strike lists like drop pods and GK shunts and the like do well. Decent target priority can give the non-alpha striking player a huge disadvantage right from the word go.

The BA heavy flamer option is very helpful, but piling out of a rhino 1" away from an enemy and not being able to punch them means they're just a kinda-tough shooting unit. And with 1 attack each, they have hilariously little killing power in melee, and are prone to getting stuck in deadlocked combats, where the opposing squad is undoubtedly less expensive. If they were more expensive, they would have killed the marines already.

If assault from rhino/razorbacks ever got fixed, I'd view tacticals a bit more favorably, since they could actually CHARGE someone, instead of getting out and getting shot or preemptive charged instead.

Also I take issue with how easy it is to wipe entire marine squads with decent strength good ap decent range guns that cost less than the marine squad itself.

This is the nice way to put it. But it's 100% accurate.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Suffer from being generalists in a game where specialists rock.

They also suffer from being defensive in a game where offense rocks.

Anything you tank shots from on turn 1 still has 4-6 more attempts to try and kill you, not including assault.

Anything you kill on turn 1 STOPS TRYING TO KILL YOU. This is why alpha strike lists like drop pods and GK shunts and the like do well. Decent target priority can give the non-alpha striking player a huge disadvantage right from the word go.

The BA heavy flamer option is very helpful, but piling out of a rhino 1" away from an enemy and not being able to punch them means they're just a kinda-tough shooting unit. And with 1 attack each, they have hilariously little killing power in melee, and are prone to getting stuck in deadlocked combats, where the opposing squad is undoubtedly less expensive. If they were more expensive, they would have killed the marines already.

If assault from rhino/razorbacks ever got fixed, I'd view tacticals a bit more favorably, since they could actually CHARGE someone, instead of getting out and getting shot or preemptive charged instead.

Also I take issue with how easy it is to wipe entire marine squads with decent strength good ap decent range guns that cost less than the marine squad itself.

Most troops in the game are generalists, that's kind of their thing. Except that marines are stupid easy to turn into specialists. They all have krak grenades which means that literally any marine unit can kill most tanks. You can combat squad them so that you've got a five man hunter killer unit with plasma/melta and a five man fire support unit with a heavy bolter/missile launcher.

FTR, razorbacks cost about as much as chimeras, but they have freaking twin-linked BS4 heavy weapons. They're pretty darn good.

Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. Target saturation people. Unless the enemy kills your combat squad to a man, that marine is still objective secured next turn, even by his lonesome.

"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

I've been reading and all I've seen is "3+ armor is worthless, there's so much Ap2/3 weaponry out there."

 TheSilo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

I've been reading and all I've seen is "3+ armor is worthless, there's so much Ap2/3 weaponry out there."

Yes, that's a complaint, but the cheapness of tacticals mitigates the problem to a degree. The real problem is that they have to weather that firepower turn after turn because they can't kill back.

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

On a somewhat random basis, with no capability of harming anything in CC or taking equipment to deal with tanks or heavy T-based units.

A tac squad can pack up to three upgrade weapons (special, heavy, combi) to enhance their anti-infantry capability or to deal with heavy infantry or tanks, on top of a hidden powerfist.

The tac squad offers a greater threat, and to a far greater variety of units than the Dire Avengers could ever hope to. Yeah, the DA's don't need any upgrades, but they're far easier to destroy and are only good at one thing, which the Tac's aren't exactly terrible at either.

Don't use Eldar and Tau as examples. That's the problem. Tacs aren't Dires or Fires so all the internet boohoo gets dialed up to 11.

They're good enough. T4, 3+, ignore an entire base mechanic of the game, cheap transports, and tons of options.

My knock against them, weak offense. But it's still good. I rarely run a squad of marines at an RTT or GT that doesn't take their own cost of enemy models off the field. As long as they can do that and fill the CAD troop requirement, they're good.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

I've been reading and all I've seen is "3+ armor is worthless, there's so much Ap2/3 weaponry out there."

Yes, that's a complaint, but the cheapness of tacticals mitigates the problem to a degree. The real problem is that they have to weather that firepower turn after turn because they can't kill back.

Depends on your List and how you use them.
If I can pull off my first turn my Plasma-SPAM List can tear apart most armies on turn one. The only thing I have issue with is AV14.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

On a somewhat random basis, with no capability of harming anything in CC or taking equipment to deal with tanks or heavy T-based units.

A tac squad can pack up to three upgrade weapons (special, heavy, combi) to enhance their anti-infantry capability or to deal with heavy infantry or tanks, on top of a hidden powerfist.

The tac squad offers a greater threat, and to a far greater variety of units than the Dire Avengers could ever hope to. Yeah, the DA's don't need any upgrades, but they're far easier to destroy and are only good at one thing, which the Tac's aren't exactly terrible at either.

Yes, but doing what you describe just trashed their durability/pt. There is too much AP 2/3 in the game for me to consider that a great option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, folks seem to think that tac marines are underpowered because they're not invincible. "

Have you read the thread? It's about their terrible offense/pt, not their defense. Dire Avengers, for example, can shred 2+ armor with no upgrades and no chance of killing themselves.

I've been reading and all I've seen is "3+ armor is worthless, there's so much Ap2/3 weaponry out there."

Yes, that's a complaint, but the cheapness of tacticals mitigates the problem to a degree. The real problem is that they have to weather that firepower turn after turn because they can't kill back.

Depends on your List and how you use them.
If I can pull off my first turn my Plasma-SPAM List can tear apart most armies on turn one. The only thing I have issue with is AV14.

Is this list done with tactical squads?

Probably not, whenever you use plasma spam as a T1 alpha-strike it is almost always more efficient on combi-sternguard, who also are treated as suicide units due to their 3+ save not being able to handle a turn of shooting most often..

So what bearing does the plasma-spam list have on the efficacy of tactical squads?

 Quickjager wrote:
Probably not, whenever you use plasma spam as a T1 alpha-strike it is almost always more efficient on combi-sternguard, who also are treated as suicide units due to their 3+ save not being able to handle a turn of shooting most often..

I usually use Multiple Tactical Squads [Combi-Plasma, Plasma-Gun, Plasma-Cannon], Devastator Squads [4x Plasma-Cannons] and a Sternguard loaded with Plasma in a Stormraven.
My Plasma Cannons usually do not get to fire till turn 2 if I go first due to movement, If I go second most everything I want to kill has moved into my Weapon Ranges.

Now I will admit I have incredible luck with Plasma.

There's nothing wrong with them inherently, they are solidly comparable to pretty much any other unit in the game that occupies a similar slot in the army list.

The issue inherent to Tacs and pretty much all other troops choices aside from maybe Dire Avengers and Fire Warriors (and they're only really as good as they are because of the units and options that they come with) is that troops have been pretty much an irrelevance that you've been forced to take at least some of all the way back to 2nd Ed.

There is such a wide gamut of damage output and durability that I'm afraid grunts often don't offer enough to significantly impact a game with the limited tactical depth of 40K.

I like Tac Marines and they should be the mainstay of an SM army since a Battle Company has 60 total. By the same token you shouldn't have more than two full squads of Assault Marines (or Bikes) or more than two full Dev squads.

ansacs wrote:TAC marines have to be played tactically...this means for many players they are impossible to use.

Exactly. The only problem with tac marines is that they're not point and click units. This part of the internet quickly comes to the conclusion that if you need skill to play a strategy game, then it's the game that's broken, not the player when something goes wrong.

Tac marines, like many other units that are dismissed as terrible out of hand (like 1ksons and possessed), come with a high price tag and a bunch of mandatory upgrades. If you can't get any use out of the upgrades, then you're just overpaying for underused units. If you can get use of them when appropriate then you get a unit which, despite its price tag, is actually points efficient for how much stuff you get.

In the end, they are a versatility unit. Comparing them face to face against things that do a single thing well is always pointless. As is putting tac marines up against units they'd never be up against unless the marine player is doing something very wrong.

Go ahead and take your tac marines. I'll take something else, thanks. Your back-handed insult to those that dislike tac marines is noted, but ignored.

The only reason I have slowed down in using Tacticals/Grey Hunters actually is the new Detachments and Data-Slates.
I has nothing to do with Tacticals being good or bad.
There are just so many ways to build armies.

In before an Ailaros learn to play po...

Oh.

Never mind.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tac marines, like many other units that are dismissed as terrible out of hand (like 1ksons and possessed), come with a high price tag

Is 14 points a high price tag for something that can kill anything in the game with Toughness less than 10, AV less than 12, will never remain broken and doesn't suffer the penalties of breaking, can never be swept in Assault, and usually has a better save outside of cover than many things have in cover? And all out of the Troops slot?

14 points is not expensive for a Tactical Marine. It's a steal.

If it weren't for Bike Marines, they'd be the best Troops in the game without question. Just because Bikes exist, and in the same army no less, and are objectively better than Tactical Marines, that doesn't make Tactical Marines bad.