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DarknessEternal wrote:Is 14 points a high price tag for something that can kill anything in the game with Toughness less than 10, AV less than 12, will never remain broken and doesn't suffer the penalties of breaking, can never be swept in Assault, and usually has a better save outside of cover than many things have in cover? And all out of the Troops slot?
I'm not saying it's inefficient. Indeed, I was completely agreeing with you.
But 14 points a model is a high by-model price for a troops choice. Most armies come in at less than 10, and at least three have something that comes at 5 points a model or fewer.
I agree that, if you use them as they're designed to be used, you get more than 14 points per model worth of stuff, but most people look at the 14 points and then forget what you get for it (or can't see it because they can't make use of it).
14 Pts isn't too much. You want to compare troops? Compare my Ork Boy to your Tac Marine.
Your Marine costs just a little over double my Boy, exactly double if I want to bring a sub par shooty gun. So, you have a troop that can shoot with some of the best reliability of any army, has access to GOOD special weaponry, shares the same and envied T4, gets a fricken 3+ armor save that makes most armies drool in envy despite AP abundance, can Deep Strike if needed, can't be swept off the board, auto regroups, you get fething KRAK grenades...need i continue?
What does my Boy have for 6 pts? He has toughness 4. *Finger twirl* Yes, he can be taken in bigger numbers but they get pasted by the most basic of guns and numbers dwindle before they get close to be threats if I don't play as smart as possible. Yes he CAN get S4, but only on the charge while your Marines are always S4. I also never get to use my 6+ save, so you can shut up about your 'terrible 3+' save, I get to pay a point for a gun I'll probably never use due to it's poor range and even if I do, my BS sucks so bad I'll miss a lot of shots. And the shots that get through...Oh look...my gun doesn't have decent AP. Most armies will shrug the shots off. Grenades? I get Stikkbombs...whoopie. Special weapons? Why would I bother? My dudes can also kill one another with Mob Rule. My dudes CAN be swept. My dudes CAN run. My troops also can't really deal with armor, all except for my Nob, who I have to protect with the lives of my entire squad. If he dies, then the entire unit becomes drastically weaker. Unlike Marines, where even if they lose their Special Weapon, the unit is still durable and small enough to hug cover proper and can still pull weight in combat.
Marine players boor me with their constant complaining. I love my Orks, despite their flaws. But Christ. Get over it. Tacs ARE one of the best troops in the damn game. Their problem isn't that they are 'bad', it's that you have better options in general, which by comparison makes them SEEM bad.
Martel732 wrote: Because the best lists are shooting. If the best lists were assault, you would nerf all of them and be the best list, because their big scheme doesn't work well against SW.
Take on a Long Range Firepower List like Tau or Mech-Guard with Space Wolves not in Pods and you will see the issues
So building a bad list makes Grey Hunters fair for other meqs? Okay.
No, as Space Wolves without going to Allies or buckets of Long Fangs we do not have Long Range Army.
As I have always said: Space wolves are a Mid Ranged Shooting Army with Superior Counter Assault.
Space Marines have the easy ability to become a Long Range Blast-Heavy Army. This includes Tactical Squads.
I was referring to Space Wolves not in pods. I haven't seen a SW list without pods in a very, very long time. Why would someone not use pods with SW? And tactical marines do not contribute significant firepower in that kind of list. It's all bikers and grav cents, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:11:20
Breng77 wrote: I disagree with Spacewolf counterattack nerfing assault lists, good assault lists don't care.
Either they are so durable that the SW swings don't really matter or they are higher initiatitive so they make them matter less.
My thought would be that an assault army that cannot handle SW counter attack is a bad assault army.
That, and fact that if you're close enough to charge, you're close enough to get pistolled and charged next turn, so you might as well claim the extra attack while it's there.
That just makes it a lose/lose. Why get that close to SW in the first place? I guess if they are on an objective, and that's why I think they are so strong.
If you are, say, Orks or Nids or DE or any unit that specialises in CC rather than shooting.
This.
You don't think orks care about an extra +2 attacks coming their way? And coming before their own?
It's huge. They have to sit there and trade fire with you at that point in the game, instead of moving forward to assault.
The only reason my Marines are unbound is to not run Tacticals.
The problem with them, as I see it, is they're generalist units in a most dysfunctional way possible; you can only use one of their capacities a turn. What I mean by this is to use their heavy weapon you can't move, thus the chances of using their specials/boltguns is greatly reduced, and the Sergeant's melee abilities are completely null. If you advance to use specials/boltguns, the heavy is near useless and the Sgt. still can't hit anything, because you can't charge after rapid firing, and if you want to assault, heavies and most specials are useless, as are the boltguns, and while the Sgt. can go smack things, the other tacs are almost useless against most targets, especially for their points cost.
Furthermore, if you make them genuinely generalist, they are super expensive, while being totally unable to use a large percentage of the points your paying for.
Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units. Red Scorpions tacticals, all having Feel No Pain makes a tactical-centric list pretty durable even with the stupid amount of AP2/3 out there, and an Ultramarine list with Calgar podding in can get some decent firepower down.
Tacticals don't completely suck with the right chapter/special rules, but for most marine armies, they're not useless per se, but extremely cost ineffective. I have Minotaurs as my Marine army, and tacticals do literally nothing for me than provide a too-expensive single lascannon in the backfield to get the one or two local WAACs to stop bitching about how "imba" unbound is.
Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
"Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units"
We can't get the magic SW knife, so the assault part is still really shaky.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorStoffer wrote: The only reason my Marines are unbound is to not run Tacticals.
The problem with them, as I see it, is they're generalist units in a most dysfunctional way possible; you can only use one of their capacities a turn. What I mean by this is to use their heavy weapon you can't move, thus the chances of using their specials/boltguns is greatly reduced, and the Sergeant's melee abilities are completely null. If you advance to use specials/boltguns, the heavy is near useless and the Sgt. still can't hit anything, because you can't charge after rapid firing, and if you want to assault, heavies and most specials are useless, as are the boltguns, and while the Sgt. can go smack things, the other tacs are almost useless against most targets, especially for their points cost.
Furthermore, if you make them genuinely generalist, they are super expensive, while being totally unable to use a large percentage of the points your paying for.
Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units. Red Scorpions tacticals, all having Feel No Pain makes a tactical-centric list pretty durable even with the stupid amount of AP2/3 out there, and an Ultramarine list with Calgar podding in can get some decent firepower down.
Tacticals don't completely suck with the right chapter/special rules, but for most marine armies, they're not useless per se, but extremely cost ineffective. I have Minotaurs as my Marine army, and tacticals do literally nothing for me than provide a too-expensive single lascannon in the backfield to get the one or two local WAACs to stop bitching about how "imba" unbound is.
Using unbound to avoid terrible troops is one thing; using it to bring 20 riptides is another.
DarknessEternal wrote:Is 14 points a high price tag for something that can kill anything in the game with Toughness less than 10, AV less than 12, will never remain broken and doesn't suffer the penalties of breaking, can never be swept in Assault, and usually has a better save outside of cover than many things have in cover? And all out of the Troops slot?
I'm not saying it's inefficient. Indeed, I was completely agreeing with you.
But 14 points a model is a high by-model price for a troops choice. Most armies come in at less than 10, and at least three have something that comes at 5 points a model or fewer.
I agree that, if you use them as they're designed to be used, you get more than 14 points per model worth of stuff, but most people look at the 14 points and then forget what you get for it (or can't see it because they can't make use of it).
14 Pts isn't too much. You want to compare troops? Compare my Ork Boy to your Tac Marine.
Your Marine costs just a little over double my Boy, exactly double if I want to bring a sub par shooty gun. So, you have a troop that can shoot with some of the best reliability of any army, has access to GOOD special weaponry, shares the same and envied T4, gets a fricken 3+ armor save that makes most armies drool in envy despite AP abundance, can Deep Strike if needed, can't be swept off the board, auto regroups, you get fething KRAK grenades...need i continue?
What does my Boy have for 6 pts? He has toughness 4. *Finger twirl* Yes, he can be taken in bigger numbers but they get pasted by the most basic of guns and numbers dwindle before they get close to be threats if I don't play as smart as possible. Yes he CAN get S4, but only on the charge while your Marines are always S4. I also never get to use my 6+ save, so you can shut up about your 'terrible 3+' save, I get to pay a point for a gun I'll probably never use due to it's poor range and even if I do, my BS sucks so bad I'll miss a lot of shots. And the shots that get through...Oh look...my gun doesn't have decent AP. Most armies will shrug the shots off. Grenades? I get Stikkbombs...whoopie. Special weapons? Why would I bother? My dudes can also kill one another with Mob Rule. My dudes CAN be swept. My dudes CAN run. My troops also can't really deal with armor, all except for my Nob, who I have to protect with the lives of my entire squad. If he dies, then the entire unit becomes drastically weaker. Unlike Marines, where even if they lose their Special Weapon, the unit is still durable and small enough to hug cover proper and can still pull weight in combat.
Marine players boor me with their constant complaining. I love my Orks, despite their flaws. But Christ. Get over it. Tacs ARE one of the best troops in the damn game. Their problem isn't that they are 'bad', it's that you have better options in general, which by comparison makes them SEEM bad.
Your boyz have the most important advantage over the marines though: more wounds to give. That's what matters in 7th; is being able to suck up the huge numbers of incoming wounds. Plus, if your opponent paid for AP 2/3, it is wasted against Orks. That's pretty huge, too.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:16:09
MajorStoffer wrote: The only reason my Marines are unbound is to not run Tacticals.
The problem with them, as I see it, is they're generalist units in a most dysfunctional way possible; you can only use one of their capacities a turn. What I mean by this is to use their heavy weapon you can't move, thus the chances of using their specials/boltguns is greatly reduced, and the Sergeant's melee abilities are completely null. If you advance to use specials/boltguns, the heavy is near useless and the Sgt. still can't hit anything, because you can't charge after rapid firing, and if you want to assault, heavies and most specials are useless, as are the boltguns, and while the Sgt. can go smack things, the other tacs are almost useless against most targets, especially for their points cost.
Furthermore, if you make them genuinely generalist, they are super expensive, while being totally unable to use a large percentage of the points your paying for.
Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units. Red Scorpions tacticals, all having Feel No Pain makes a tactical-centric list pretty durable even with the stupid amount of AP2/3 out there, and an Ultramarine list with Calgar podding in can get some decent firepower down.
Tacticals don't completely suck with the right chapter/special rules, but for most marine armies, they're not useless per se, but extremely cost ineffective. I have Minotaurs as my Marine army, and tacticals do literally nothing for me than provide a too-expensive single lascannon in the backfield to get the one or two local WAACs to stop bitching about how "imba" unbound is.
Yes the Blood Angels are now the best Tactical Marines in the game with their ability to completely Focus (At lest till the new Space Marine Codex comes out, I expect them to get Heavy Flamers to]
With the normal Tactical Marines the closest to a focused build is Imperial Fists Sentinels of Terra with a Heavy Bolter. With the Re-Rolls improves it hit ability, but only at 18".
MajorStoffer wrote: The only reason my Marines are unbound is to not run Tacticals.
The problem with them, as I see it, is they're generalist units in a most dysfunctional way possible; you can only use one of their capacities a turn. What I mean by this is to use their heavy weapon you can't move, thus the chances of using their specials/boltguns is greatly reduced, and the Sergeant's melee abilities are completely null. If you advance to use specials/boltguns, the heavy is near useless and the Sgt. still can't hit anything, because you can't charge after rapid firing, and if you want to assault, heavies and most specials are useless, as are the boltguns, and while the Sgt. can go smack things, the other tacs are almost useless against most targets, especially for their points cost.
Furthermore, if you make them genuinely generalist, they are super expensive, while being totally unable to use a large percentage of the points your paying for.
Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units. Red Scorpions tacticals, all having Feel No Pain makes a tactical-centric list pretty durable even with the stupid amount of AP2/3 out there, and an Ultramarine list with Calgar podding in can get some decent firepower down.
Tacticals don't completely suck with the right chapter/special rules, but for most marine armies, they're not useless per se, but extremely cost ineffective. I have Minotaurs as my Marine army, and tacticals do literally nothing for me than provide a too-expensive single lascannon in the backfield to get the one or two local WAACs to stop bitching about how "imba" unbound is.
Yes the Blood Angels are now the best Tactical Marines in the game with their ability to completely Focus (At lest till the new Space Marine Codex comes out, I expect them to get Heavy Flamers to]
With the normal Tactical Marines the closest to a focused build is Imperial Fists Sentinels of Terra with a Heavy Bolter. With the Re-Rolls improves it hit ability, but only at 18".
And your Grey Hunters still completely own them in both shooting and assault.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:20:42
Sure it hurts more than not, but enough to scare me away from assaulting.
In other armies things like Grotesques, Monsterous Creatures (nids Talos etc), Chaos Spawn, walkers, Imperial Knights.....
Sure bad assault units like assault marines (irony in that kills me) care, because they are bad to begin with, even then Raven Guard Assault marines with bonuses to hammer of wrath, or bike units with hammer of wrath, probably don't care enough to not assault. The larger issue is that a lot of assault based units in this game are bad units. Not because counter attack, because they are bad.
MajorStoffer wrote: The only reason my Marines are unbound is to not run Tacticals.
The problem with them, as I see it, is they're generalist units in a most dysfunctional way possible; you can only use one of their capacities a turn. What I mean by this is to use their heavy weapon you can't move, thus the chances of using their specials/boltguns is greatly reduced, and the Sergeant's melee abilities are completely null. If you advance to use specials/boltguns, the heavy is near useless and the Sgt. still can't hit anything, because you can't charge after rapid firing, and if you want to assault, heavies and most specials are useless, as are the boltguns, and while the Sgt. can go smack things, the other tacs are almost useless against most targets, especially for their points cost.
Furthermore, if you make them genuinely generalist, they are super expensive, while being totally unable to use a large percentage of the points your paying for.
Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units. Red Scorpions tacticals, all having Feel No Pain makes a tactical-centric list pretty durable even with the stupid amount of AP2/3 out there, and an Ultramarine list with Calgar podding in can get some decent firepower down.
Tacticals don't completely suck with the right chapter/special rules, but for most marine armies, they're not useless per se, but extremely cost ineffective. I have Minotaurs as my Marine army, and tacticals do literally nothing for me than provide a too-expensive single lascannon in the backfield to get the one or two local WAACs to stop bitching about how "imba" unbound is.
5 man tac with laz cannon is the only option for most marine players. It's a terribly bad unit.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Sure it hurts more than not, but enough to scare me away from assaulting.
In other armies things like Grotesques, Monsterous Creatures (nids Talos etc), Chaos Spawn, walkers, Imperial Knights.....
Sure bad assault units like assault marines (irony in that kills me) care, because they are bad to begin with, even then Raven Guard Assault marines with bonuses to hammer of wrath, or bike units with hammer of wrath, probably don't care enough to not assault. The larger issue is that a lot of assault based units in this game are bad units. Not because counter attack, because they are bad.
I admit there there is probably a good deal of that going on as well. Counter attack certainly makes them even worse,though, if they started as bad. And changes slightly above average to below average or even bad.
Sure it doesn't help, but if they were good to begin with it would hurt but you would not care. But like I said things seekers don't really care (unless you are in terrain) as I'll hit you first and close to wipe the squad before I get hit back. So you having 3 attacks instead of 2 coming back at me is meh.
Or units like my beast of nurgle unit, won't even lose a model charging grey hunters and will proceeded to kill 6-10 Grey Hunters. It is a much more expensive unit, but at that rate, I'll eat 4-5 squads with minimal damage....
Also BA assault squads, on the charge should kill 3 GH before they strike, and lose about 2 models. Assuming no special close combat weapons in either squad, and no shooting prior to the charge.....so even then it hurts (costs you 1 additional model) but it is not the end of the world.
Breng77 wrote: Sure it doesn't help, but if they were good to begin with it would hurt but you would not care. But like I said things seekers don't really care (unless you are in terrain) as I'll hit you first and close to wipe the squad before I get hit back. So you having 3 attacks instead of 2 coming back at me is meh.
Or units like my beast of nurgle unit, won't even lose a model charging grey hunters and will proceeded to kill 6-10 Grey Hunters. It is a much more expensive unit, but at that rate, I'll eat 4-5 squads with minimal damage....
Also BA assault squads, on the charge should kill 3 GH before they strike, and lose about 2 models. Assuming no special close combat weapons in either squad, and no shooting prior to the charge.....so even then it hurts (costs you 1 additional model) but it is not the end of the world.
Yeah, but the grey hunters are going to double tap the crap out of those assault marines before they get there. I can't remember the last time a BA squad actually made it anywhere intact. Actually, I can. 3rd edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:32:55
Martel732 wrote: "Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units"
We can't get the magic SW knife, so the assault part is still really shaky.
Yes you can not PAY for a Chainsword
That still will not fix the Problem of Tactical Squads being "Average" in a world of "Better Choices"
You are still not seeing how Blood Angel Tactical Squads re now Better than any other "MEQ" Tactical Like Squads. So lets try this.
The Assault Phase
I5 Challenge: The Blood Angel Sargent with his Power Sword cuts down the Opposing Sargent (or WGPL) in the Challenge inflicting one spare wound.
I4 Challenge: There is not the model has been removed.
I5: The rest of the Blood Angels inflict a number of wounds [on a 3+] and one from the Challenge
I4: What is left can Attack inflicting a lot less wounds that if they had gone of simultaneously.
Results: The Blood Angels Tactical Squad will probably win the Assault more time than not.
Martel732 wrote: "Now, Blood Angels tacticals seem to be a lot better; furious charge and +1 I on the charge, able to take an assault heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer), a flamer and hand flamer makes them a solid counter-assault/crowd control unit, able to shoot things at close range well and act as decent shock assault units"
We can't get the magic SW knife, so the assault part is still really shaky.
Yes you can not PAY for a Chainsword
That still will not fix the Problem of Tactical Squads being "Average" in a world of "Better Choices"
You are still not seeing how Blood Angel Tactical Squads re now Better than any other "MEQ" Tactical Like Squads. So lets try this.
The Assault Phase
I5 Challenge: The Blood Angel Sargent with his Power Sword cuts down the Opposing Sargent (or WGPL) in the Challenge inflicting one spare wound.
I4 Challenge: There is not the model has been removed.
I5: The rest of the Blood Angels inflict a number of wounds [on a 3+] and one from the Challenge
I4: What is left can Attack inflicting a lot less wounds that if they had gone of simultaneously.
Results: The Blood Angels Tactical Squad will probably win the Assault more time than not.
You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you. People are saying BA tacs are good because now they can make them suicide heavy flamer units. I still maintain suiciding meqs is not usually a good plan. Guardsmen, sure.
"Yes you can not PAY for a Chainsword "
Sorry they aren't quite as crazy as 5th. No, not really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:37:06
Breng77 wrote: Sure it doesn't help, but if they were good to begin with it would hurt but you would not care. But like I said things seekers don't really care (unless you are in terrain) as I'll hit you first and close to wipe the squad before I get hit back. So you having 3 attacks instead of 2 coming back at me is meh.
Or units like my beast of nurgle unit, won't even lose a model charging grey hunters and will proceeded to kill 6-10 Grey Hunters. It is a much more expensive unit, but at that rate, I'll eat 4-5 squads with minimal damage....
Also BA assault squads, on the charge should kill 3 GH before they strike, and lose about 2 models. Assuming no special close combat weapons in either squad, and no shooting prior to the charge.....so even then it hurts (costs you 1 additional model) but it is not the end of the world.
Why would I not be in cover versus demons, an army that needs to approach me?
Do seekers not care about 30 attacks plus overwatch?
Breng77 wrote: Sure it doesn't help, but if they were good to begin with it would hurt but you would not care. But like I said things seekers don't really care (unless you are in terrain) as I'll hit you first and close to wipe the squad before I get hit back. So you having 3 attacks instead of 2 coming back at me is meh.
Or units like my beast of nurgle unit, won't even lose a model charging grey hunters and will proceeded to kill 6-10 Grey Hunters. It is a much more expensive unit, but at that rate, I'll eat 4-5 squads with minimal damage....
Also BA assault squads, on the charge should kill 3 GH before they strike, and lose about 2 models. Assuming no special close combat weapons in either squad, and no shooting prior to the charge.....so even then it hurts (costs you 1 additional model) but it is not the end of the world.
Why would I not be in cover versus demons, an army that needs to approach me?
Do seekers not care about 30 attacks plus overwatch?
Apparently not. I'll take his word for it, since I haven't seen the demon codex myself. I'll tell you that my BA certainly care. Assuming he lets me charge him.
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life. Loaded stormravens are still death traps in 7th ed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:45:19
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life.
Your HATRED for Grey Hunters and inability to see that Blood Angels Tactical have gotten Much Better I think is clouding how you think.
Blood Angel Tactical Marines got Cheaper and gained the use of the Heavy Flamer, Both are Good things right?
Grey Hunters lost their Free Close Combat Weapon and now have to pay more than 1 point for, both things you wanted for them, this is good right?
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life.
Your HATRED for Grey Hunters and inability to see that Blood Angels Tactical have gotten Much Better I think is clouding how you think.
Blood Angel Tactical Marines got Cheaper and gained the use of the Heavy Flamer, Both are Good things right?
Grey Hunters lost their Free Close Combat Weapon and now have to pay more than 1 point for, both things you wanted for them, this is good right?
Well, let's see.
Blood angel tacticals get 2 attacks off the charge, and can flamer as well
GH will get 3 attacks can overwatch with 6 plasma shots. I am not sure how popping the banner plays into it, so I will ignore it for now
Let's assume every flamer hits 3-4 guys, so 7 for the two flamers.
7 hits, 3.5 at str 5, 3.5 at str 4
2.25 wounds from the heavy flamer, results in nearly 1 dead marine. 1.75 wounds from the flamer results in .5 dead marines. So let's round and call it 1 dead marine.
GH fires 6 plasma shots on overwatch, 1 hits, killing one guy 5/6 times.
14 bolters fire, ~2 hit, 1 wound, 1/3 dead guys. So let's say 1 dead marine per side before combat.
9 charge in for BA, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 6 wounds, 2 dead marines.
21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds, just under 2 dead marines.
So, BA win by...1 on average it seems. In the next round, it becomes
BA: 7 marines, 7 attacks, 3.5 hit. 1.75 wound, little over 50% chance of killing
GH: 7 marines, 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, little over 1 dead.
So unless they win the first and every round of combat and keep charging, they will eventually lose. The Wolf army will outnumber you because they don't have 600 points of storm raven as well.
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life.
Your HATRED for Grey Hunters and inability to see that Blood Angels Tactical have gotten Much Better I think is clouding how you think.
Blood Angel Tactical Marines got Cheaper and gained the use of the Heavy Flamer, Both are Good things right?
Grey Hunters lost their Free Close Combat Weapon and now have to pay more than 1 point for, both things you wanted for them, this is good right?
Well, let's see.
Blood angel tacticals get 2 attacks off the charge, and can flamer as well
GH will get 3 attacks can overwatch with 6 plasma shots. I am not sure how popping the banner plays into it, so I will ignore it for now
Let's assume every flamer hits 3-4 guys, so 7 for the two flamers.
7 hits, 3.5 at str 5, 3.5 at str 4
2.25 wounds from the heavy flamer, results in nearly 1 dead marine. 1.75 wounds from the flamer results in .5 dead marines. So let's round and call it 1 dead marine.
GH fires 6 plasma shots on overwatch, 1 hits, killing one guy 5/6 times.
14 bolters fire, ~2 hit, 1 wound, 1/3 dead guys. So let's say 1 dead marine per side before combat.
9 charge in for BA, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 6 wounds, 2 dead marines.
21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds, just under 2 dead marines.
So, BA win by...1 on average it seems. In the next round, it becomes
BA: 7 marines, 7 attacks, 3.5 hit. 1.75 wound, little over 50% chance of killing
GH: 7 marines, 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, little over 1 dead.
So unless they win the first and every round of combat and keep charging, they will eventually lose. The Wolf army will outnumber you because they don't have 600 points of storm raven as well.
6 Plasma Shots...WDLP with a Combi-Plasma I assume.
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life.
Your HATRED for Grey Hunters and inability to see that Blood Angels Tactical have gotten Much Better I think is clouding how you think.
Blood Angel Tactical Marines got Cheaper and gained the use of the Heavy Flamer, Both are Good things right?
Grey Hunters lost their Free Close Combat Weapon and now have to pay more than 1 point for, both things you wanted for them, this is good right?
Well, let's see.
Blood angel tacticals get 2 attacks off the charge, and can flamer as well
GH will get 3 attacks can overwatch with 6 plasma shots. I am not sure how popping the banner plays into it, so I will ignore it for now
Let's assume every flamer hits 3-4 guys, so 7 for the two flamers.
7 hits, 3.5 at str 5, 3.5 at str 4
2.25 wounds from the heavy flamer, results in nearly 1 dead marine. 1.75 wounds from the flamer results in .5 dead marines. So let's round and call it 1 dead marine.
GH fires 6 plasma shots on overwatch, 1 hits, killing one guy 5/6 times.
14 bolters fire, ~2 hit, 1 wound, 1/3 dead guys. So let's say 1 dead marine per side before combat.
9 charge in for BA, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 6 wounds, 2 dead marines.
21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds, just under 2 dead marines.
So, BA win by...1 on average it seems. In the next round, it becomes
BA: 7 marines, 7 attacks, 3.5 hit. 1.75 wound, little over 50% chance of killing
GH: 7 marines, 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, little over 1 dead.
So unless they win the first and every round of combat and keep charging, they will eventually lose. The Wolf army will outnumber you because they don't have 600 points of storm raven as well.
6 Plasma Shots...WDLP with a Combi-Plasma I assume.
Yes.
I didn't include the extra attack for them or the BA sarge, though this does help BA a bit
Also having more power swords helps BA more than GH, which helps as well.
No banner...tried to keep it somewhat simple.
That formation is amazing, but I wouldn't use it against a lot of opponents. Against the top tier dexes though...it is so much win.
Breng77 wrote: Sure it doesn't help, but if they were good to begin with it would hurt but you would not care. But like I said things seekers don't really care (unless you are in terrain) as I'll hit you first and close to wipe the squad before I get hit back. So you having 3 attacks instead of 2 coming back at me is meh.
Or units like my beast of nurgle unit, won't even lose a model charging grey hunters and will proceeded to kill 6-10 Grey Hunters. It is a much more expensive unit, but at that rate, I'll eat 4-5 squads with minimal damage....
Also BA assault squads, on the charge should kill 3 GH before they strike, and lose about 2 models. Assuming no special close combat weapons in either squad, and no shooting prior to the charge.....so even then it hurts (costs you 1 additional model) but it is not the end of the world.
Why would I not be in cover versus demons, an army that needs to approach me?
Do seekers not care about 30 attacks plus overwatch?
If you want to sit in cover all game while the rest of my army does stuff, like summon new units and claim objectives I'm alright with it. And yes seekers care about 30 attacks, which is why I said not in cover, but my prefered beasts of nurgle don't, simply put they walk right through your double tap, overwatch, and 30 attacks and eat your grey hunters.
That also leaves out the possiblilities like Seekers being invisible, or having a 2++ save etc. Or having the Slaanesh psychic power that gives you negative initiative and no overwatch....
Like I said good assault units will still own grey hunters....
Martel732 wrote: You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.
Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!
A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life.
Your HATRED for Grey Hunters and inability to see that Blood Angels Tactical have gotten Much Better I think is clouding how you think.
Blood Angel Tactical Marines got Cheaper and gained the use of the Heavy Flamer, Both are Good things right?
Grey Hunters lost their Free Close Combat Weapon and now have to pay more than 1 point for, both things you wanted for them, this is good right?
Well, let's see.
Blood angel tacticals get 2 attacks off the charge, and can flamer as well
GH will get 3 attacks can overwatch with 6 plasma shots. I am not sure how popping the banner plays into it, so I will ignore it for now
Let's assume every flamer hits 3-4 guys, so 7 for the two flamers.
7 hits, 3.5 at str 5, 3.5 at str 4
2.25 wounds from the heavy flamer, results in nearly 1 dead marine. 1.75 wounds from the flamer results in .5 dead marines. So let's round and call it 1 dead marine.
GH fires 6 plasma shots on overwatch, 1 hits, killing one guy 5/6 times.
14 bolters fire, ~2 hit, 1 wound, 1/3 dead guys. So let's say 1 dead marine per side before combat.
9 charge in for BA, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 6 wounds, 2 dead marines.
21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds, just under 2 dead marines.
So, BA win by...1 on average it seems. In the next round, it becomes
BA: 7 marines, 7 attacks, 3.5 hit. 1.75 wound, little over 50% chance of killing
GH: 7 marines, 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, little over 1 dead.
So unless they win the first and every round of combat and keep charging, they will eventually lose. The Wolf army will outnumber you because they don't have 600 points of storm raven as well.
6 Plasma Shots...WDLP with a Combi-Plasma I assume.
Yes.
I didn't include the extra attack for them or the BA sarge, though this does help BA a bit
Also having more power swords helps BA more than GH, which helps as well.
No banner...tried to keep it somewhat simple.
That formation is amazing, but I wouldn't use it against a lot of opponents. Against the top tier dexes though...it is so much win.
The WGPL though causes the whole Challenge issue. For me if I had loaded up with the Combi-Plasma he would also have a Wolf Claw or if I was expecting to be Assaulted a Storm Shield and Frost Blade.
Tactical Marines are pretty fantastic. Anyone who does not think so has either not seen them in sufficient numbers or in appropriate play.
Look at many big tournaments and you'll find lists that include Tactical Marine focused lists ranking highly.
Lets see. Nova, BAO, LVO, Da Boyz GT see if any are in the top 10
Nope, nope, nope, and nope.
Plenty of Daemons, Eldar, Tau and White Scars though.
I haven't seen them much in the tournament scene, other then be taxes on centstars or just meltagun suicide squads.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Breng77 wrote: Sure it doesn't help, but if they were good to begin with it would hurt but you would not care. But like I said things seekers don't really care (unless you are in terrain) as I'll hit you first and close to wipe the squad before I get hit back. So you having 3 attacks instead of 2 coming back at me is meh.
Or units like my beast of nurgle unit, won't even lose a model charging grey hunters and will proceeded to kill 6-10 Grey Hunters. It is a much more expensive unit, but at that rate, I'll eat 4-5 squads with minimal damage....
Also BA assault squads, on the charge should kill 3 GH before they strike, and lose about 2 models. Assuming no special close combat weapons in either squad, and no shooting prior to the charge.....so even then it hurts (costs you 1 additional model) but it is not the end of the world.
Why would I not be in cover versus demons, an army that needs to approach me?
Do seekers not care about 30 attacks plus overwatch?
If you want to sit in cover all game while the rest of my army does stuff, like summon new units and claim objectives I'm alright with it. And yes seekers care about 30 attacks, which is why I said not in cover, but my prefered beasts of nurgle don't, simply put they walk right through your double tap, overwatch, and 30 attacks and eat your grey hunters.
That also leaves out the possiblilities like Seekers being invisible, or having a 2++ save etc. Or having the Slaanesh psychic power that gives you negative initiative and no overwatch....
Like I said good assault units will still own grey hunters....
Summon units for days. If you take large amounts of seekers or beasts, it won't happen very quickly. Even then, your demons need to approach me at some point.
Yes, you can use your invisibility to help quite a bit. Assuming you get it and cast it, this helps immensely. Doesn't speak about seekers, just that the spell itself is busted beyond belief.
Negative init helps (Does it drop it to 1? If not, GH still hitting first. If so, equal hitting power so seekers probably take more damage then they give out, points wise) though, but now we are throwing a lot of points at killing ~150-200 points of my army (so 10% on average?)
Nurgle beasts...let's see
20 bolters, 3 hits, 50% change to wound, so 30% chance for one wound to go through? Yikes. A plasma gun helps but not by a whole lot.
30 attacks, I think hitting on 4?, 15 hits, ~3 wounds, ~2 go through. I believe. Nobody plays demons locally anymore so I'm weak on their stat lines, and the old guy played Slaanesh demons for his Emperor's children force. I'm not sure if they would wipe the unit or not.
Beasts are T5, with 4 wounds, and shrouded and IWND, I typically run at least 1 herald to give them FNP (and often Endurance). They are far more points than Grey Hunters.
So 20 bolters, assuming my first guy does not toe the cover you are hiding in. So that is about 0.49 wounds (if cover that goes down to 0.25, if endurance it drops further to 0.19). 30 attacks hitting on 3s, Puts out 2.9 wounds (again without endurance). So you almost kill one beast. Who then might regen a wound, then the beasts hit you back and with herald support likely come close to wiping the squad, then you break and run most of the time.
As for approaching you it depends, what is the mission? If objectives where are the objectives, if malestom what are the cards, if relic unless it is in cover and you drop on it I'll claim it pretty quickly and then walk away, this is also not playing super summoning or screamerstar or FMCs etc. Point is I don't really need to approach you unless you have more objectives than me, or we are playing Kill points, then sure I need to come to you...but if I kill you and you don't kill me it all works out.
Point is GH are not super OMG broken with counter attack, any more than any other marines with their own advantages are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 19:48:46
