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Breng77 wrote:
Beasts are T5, with 4 wounds, and shrouded and IWND, I typically run at least 1 herald to give them FNP (and often Endurance). They are far more points than Grey Hunters.

So 20 bolters, assuming my first guy does not toe the cover you are hiding in. So that is about 0.49 wounds (if cover that goes down to 0.25, if endurance it drops further to 0.19). 30 attacks hitting on 3s, Puts out 2.9 wounds (again without endurance). So you almost kill one beast. Who then might regen a wound, then the beasts hit you back and with herald support likely come close to wiping the squad, then you break and run most of the time.

I assume they have a 5++?
If so, 20 shots get ~3 hits, 1 wound, 66% of 1 wound, 44% after IWND. Shrouded makes it worse.

30 attacks, 20 hits, ~7 wounds, 4-5 go through, FNP and IWND drop it below one dead beast.

Yeah, I don't think anything can deal with beasts unless they fire plasma, or TWC charging in. Oddly enough, termies might do excellent against them assuming they do not ignore armor.

Luckily they don't have guns, so I do get a few plasma shots before watching them hit me, but I'm guessing it would take 400 points of GH to take them on successfully, maybe 300-350.

Yeah Termies are a problem except for the heralds I stick in their run with AP 2 S6 Weapons most of the time, so will kill marines and termies by the bunch. (They also guarantee FNP, which is where my numbers come in + shrouded). The other reason I am unlikely to lose models is that they guy eating the shooting is not often the guy eating the CC attacks. So you'll do wounds to 2 different models, and then I potentially grow them back.

You IN combat you would likely need ~30 Grey Hunters to accomplish anything meaningful and even then with a herald or 2 I still likely win the combat.

As for shooting them on the way in, being beasts, you likely get one round of shooting at them often into cover. But in general they rarely die. They have some big achilles heels, namely walkers, a dread with a fist will murder them in most cases, as will things like IKnights.

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah Termies are a problem except for the heralds I stick in their run with AP 2 S6 Weapons most of the time, so will kill marines and termies by the bunch. (They also guarantee FNP, which is where my numbers come in + shrouded).

You IN combat you would likely need ~30 Grey Hunters to accomplish anything meaningful and even then with a herald or 2 I still likely win the combat.

As for shooting them on the way in, being beasts, you likely get one round of shooting at them often into cover. But in general they rarely die. They have some big achilles heels, namely walkers, a dread with a fist will murder them in most cases, as will things like IKnights.

Yeah, when I said 2 squads I assumed I would get 1 turn of rapid fire and then you're on me. 12 plasma shots would help but in general...that is a tough unit. Maybe popping a banner and getting some maces would help, but that is list tailoring at that point.

Those things are disgusting

Yeah, they are gross for stock infantry to deal with 12 Plasma shots help, as that is 3 wounds (assuming heralds FNP), but unless they are all on one beast...it does not help as much as one might think. But like I said 1 Imperial Knight or an AV 13 walker (av12 is not much better) and they fold really quickly. It is one of the reasons that though they lack durability Plague drones are a bit better in many cases as they have plague swords to glance down vehicles.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are never going to let a BA tactical squad assault you. You will spoiling assault them. The counter attack become super valuable against units that actually can pull off an assault. Tac squads are on foot, with no assault transports. They can't assault you.

Have been paying attention to the Blood Angel Threads. You have a Formation that lets your Army Assault out of Reserves filled with Tactical Squad loaded in Flying Assault Vehicles that can show up on Turn One. There is no Other Army out there that can do that!

A single formation that requires three Stormravens and a huge amount of the list to be reserved. No thanks, I'll pass. I'm not sure that formation gives the +1 I, either. If I faced that list, I'd treat it like a triple helldrake list and move on with life.

Your HATRED for Grey Hunters and inability to see that Blood Angels Tactical have gotten Much Better I think is clouding how you think.

Blood Angel Tactical Marines got Cheaper and gained the use of the Heavy Flamer, Both are Good things right?
Grey Hunters lost their Free Close Combat Weapon and now have to pay more than 1 point for, both things you wanted for them, this is good right?

It's better, but the Grey Hunter is still head and shoulders above other meqs. You never answered whether that formation has +1 I or not. If not, then it's pretty much suicide against SW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, WS4 S4 T4 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+ is rubbish, but WS4 S5 T4 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv3+ is good?

They're scarcely different.

I didn't say it.

No the formation does not give it, but one of the Detachments [The name escapes me at the moment] can and if the Formation is part of that Detachment they would get it.

Still, though. They're TAC marines. You are investing a lot of pts to do moderate damage.

Things to consider:

If you let my BA charge you, you either suck at 40k or I made a ludicrous 12" charge. (Barring the raven formation that is broken-good. Seriously, I'm gonna get to bring that thing once before it goes on the "we won't play against that" list.)

Pro-tip vs BA. Charge them. I don't care if you think your guys suck in melee or whatever. Always charge them, never let them charge you. It nerfs them so hardcore, especially death company.

Grey hunters, you're getting smacked by that extra attack whether you charge or not. If they are on an objective in cover, and you don't have assault grenades, don't go near them unless your unit is rated far above theirs in power and durability. (Like mostly full ork boy squads.) just try to whittle them down with shooting until you have the advantage even with counterattack.

If that was any other marine chapter, the recommendation would be to charge, charge, charge.

To the guy that tried to math out 1 marine and 2 orks:
That is LITERALLY looking at the models in a vacuum. It shows no evidence whatsoever of how a game would go involving the two of them.

Any tac marine may be in: a tax unit of 5, maybe with a heavy/special, non-vet sarge. A unit of 10 in a non-assault vehicle with a couple heavies/specials, possibly a vet sarge with melee weapon, 5 man with a special in a non assault vehicle with non-vet sarge, or a pod of 10 with specials, maybe vet sarge with weapon.

(As I've said before, pods are awesome, and using them to show that a unit carried by a pod is awesome is a fallacy, considering that pods make anything that wants to be close without taking fire awesome.)

Orks could be in 11 boys +pk bp nob in a light assault vehicle, 19 boys +pk bp nob in a heavy assault vehicle, or 29 boys and pk bp nob on foot. Any of these are almost impossible to break morale-wise (1.1% chance) until they dip below 10 boys. Afterwards, as long as the nob is up, the chance of breaking only goes up to 18.5% from non-combat. (In combat, mob rule helps even more.). They are a scary melee unit that can murder things, and benefit from a run+charge if a waaagh is called, and also inherently have a reroll on charge range. They still have bolter-strength shots at short range. Accuracy sucks, but they have a lot of them. Paying for ap3/2 is near worthless against them, as only 1 of 6 boys would've saved anyway, so you'd need to kill 18 boys with your power sword before you broke even on points. Charging them to spoil their charge is not a great option. They are so melee focused that unless their squad has already been thrashed, they're going to whomp you regardless of who charged, unless your squad is a grade A meat grinder, like a big death company or some squad that's at almost-deathstar point status.

Your pro-tip is why I never lose in army swap battles. I literally have not lost to BA either in mirror match or army swap since 5th ed.

 Anpu42 wrote:
No the formation does not give it, but one of the Detachments [The name escapes me at the moment] can and if the Formation is part of that Detachment they would get it.

A Formation cannot be "part" of another Detachment, as I understand it, as it is its own Detachment.

EDIT: woohoo, 2000th post!

As a strictly Death Guard player for years now, I look at IH tactical with slight green envy....

Martel732 wrote:
Your pro-tip is why I never lose in army swap battles. I literally have not lost to BA either in mirror match or army swap since 5th ed.

Yeah me either. Somehow people think my asm are godly, then we army swap and I'm just like "hey I'll charge your asm with my cultists!" And then they're confused as to why the asm aren't performing as well for them.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
No the formation does not give it, but one of the Detachments [The name escapes me at the moment] can and if the Formation is part of that Detachment they would get it.

A Formation cannot be "part" of another Detachment, as I understand it, as it is its own Detachment.

EDIT: woohoo, 2000th post!

As I understand it you can take 1 Formation as part of a Detachment making that Formation part of the Detachment, like a LoW or Fortification.

 Anpu42 wrote:
On Grey Hunters vs Tactical Marines
Yes we get 2 Special Weapons, Counter Attack and the ability to take a CCW. However each can bee seen as an Disadvantage, the keyword it CAN vs the right Opponent who realizes their weakness.

2 Special Weapons: Yes I can take 2 Plasma-Guns which does not tie me down with a Heavy Weapon, but without a Weapon with a range of Greater than 24" I am forced to be mobile or be outranged. This may not seem like a big problem, but unless I am in good cover or a Fortification I must now buy a Transport or move towards me enemy buy leaving the safety of cover.
>A way to beat Grey Hunters Using Range: Just stay at 24+" and blast them away.

Counter-Attack Counter: Is a wonderful USR, but it only works if you ASSAULT me. You don't Assault Space Wolves I have a completely useless USR.

Adding a Close Combat Weapon: This is great I can get an Extra Attack for the price of an extra Plasma-Gun+ for a full sized Squad. With Chainsword I now cost the same as in the 5th Ed Book. Like Counter Attack you simple don't Assault them or Like Martel keeps chanting blasting them off the map before they can do anything like any other MEQ.

Now this does not mean I think Tactical Squads are Better or Worse than Grey Hunter Packs, just different.

This is LITERALLY the first time I have seen someone complain about the ability to take two special weapons instead of 1 Special and 1 Heavy. 2 Specials is FAR superior because no snap shooting when you have to move, and the fact that Drop Pods are the best way to deliver Tactical Marines to places in the first places, so you would get more out of a weapon when dropping in for the kill.
Also, the complaint about Counter Attack is stupid. That's like saying because Night Fighting isn't taking place, my Crisis Suits or Dark Eldar now have useless USR's. It makes it so your Marines are LESS LIKELY to be charged, which is kinda something good.
Seriously, like, was that post even thought out?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
On Grey Hunters vs Tactical Marines
Yes we get 2 Special Weapons, Counter Attack and the ability to take a CCW. However each can bee seen as an Disadvantage, the keyword it CAN vs the right Opponent who realizes their weakness.

2 Special Weapons: Yes I can take 2 Plasma-Guns which does not tie me down with a Heavy Weapon, but without a Weapon with a range of Greater than 24" I am forced to be mobile or be outranged. This may not seem like a big problem, but unless I am in good cover or a Fortification I must now buy a Transport or move towards me enemy buy leaving the safety of cover.
>A way to beat Grey Hunters Using Range: Just stay at 24+" and blast them away.

Counter-Attack Counter: Is a wonderful USR, but it only works if you ASSAULT me. You don't Assault Space Wolves I have a completely useless USR.

Adding a Close Combat Weapon: This is great I can get an Extra Attack for the price of an extra Plasma-Gun+ for a full sized Squad. With Chainsword I now cost the same as in the 5th Ed Book. Like Counter Attack you simple don't Assault them or Like Martel keeps chanting blasting them off the map before they can do anything like any other MEQ.

Now this does not mean I think Tactical Squads are Better or Worse than Grey Hunter Packs, just different.

This is LITERALLY the first time I have seen someone complain about the ability to take two special weapons instead of 1 Special and 1 Heavy. 2 Specials is FAR superior because no snap shooting when you have to move, and the fact that Drop Pods are the best way to deliver Tactical Marines to places in the first places, so you would get more out of a weapon when dropping in for the kill.
Also, the complaint about Counter Attack is stupid. That's like saying because Night Fighting isn't taking place, my Crisis Suits or Dark Eldar now have useless USR's. It makes it so your Marines are LESS LIKELY to be charged, which is kinda something good.
Seriously, like, was that post even thought out?

Complain, No, I was pointing out the Disadvantage of 2 Specialist Weapons. I have no Long Range Firepower. 2 13"-24" Plasma Shots really don't do much, to really get the most of them you have to get within 12", there is no other option. Melta-Gun make it 6" and Flamers 8". So Grey Hunters HAVE to move. My Opponent know this and can plan for it.
The Drop Hunters, if that is the "Only" way to use them that means I have no Flexibility, not a sign of a good well rounded unit.
The Counter Attack to me has been completely worthless to me since the 7th Edition BRB rolled out. My opponents do not Assault Me, they just blast me from 25"+ range now, unless they are Orks and Nids.

What I am saying more than anything is Grey Hunters=Tactical Squads in true battlefield power if you opponent know how to deal with them. I can project a solid 12" Don't go near me Bubble, compared to most Tactical Squads who can pull off a 36" Threat Bubble and can combat Squad and have other nifty tricks based on their CT.

I don't think we're playing the same game. Tactical squads don't have a 36" threat bubble. In practice, it's 12" just like your Grey Hunters.

I ignore tactical squads until they're convenient to crush. Straight up ignore them. Because they can't do anything. And I win games doing this. A lot of games. It's the lists full of stuff I can't ignore that I have trouble with.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, WS4 S4 T4 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+ is rubbish, but WS4 S5 T4 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv3+ is good?

They're scarcely different.

A tad disingenuous.

And by a tad, I mean quite a lot.

I5 means that they strike before MEQs or lesser - this is a big deal because it mitigates the return damage.

S5 is 16.6% better in most evey sense than S4, in terms of both damage output and what can be hurt.

You can also factor in that WS5 can reasonably be achieved in most cases to go alongside that, again boosting the damage output against MEQ or lesser.

So yeah, two tiny numbers that can make a hell of a difference on the table. Although I'm sure all those maths can just be countered by intelligent play.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think we're playing the same game. Tactical squads don't have a 36" threat bubble. In practice, it's 12" just like your Grey Hunters.

Tacticals can take thing like Plasma-Cannons, Las Cannons, Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers.

The Advantages of Grey Hunters over Tactical Squads
>We are more Mobile
>We Are Better at Close Combat
>Drop Pod Assualt

The Advantages of Tactical Marines over Grey Hunters
>Can take Long Range Weapons
>Combat Squads
>Flexibility in CT
>Flexibility in Use.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
On Grey Hunters vs Tactical Marines
Yes we get 2 Special Weapons, Counter Attack and the ability to take a CCW. However each can bee seen as an Disadvantage, the keyword it CAN vs the right Opponent who realizes their weakness.

2 Special Weapons: Yes I can take 2 Plasma-Guns which does not tie me down with a Heavy Weapon, but without a Weapon with a range of Greater than 24" I am forced to be mobile or be outranged. This may not seem like a big problem, but unless I am in good cover or a Fortification I must now buy a Transport or move towards me enemy buy leaving the safety of cover.
>A way to beat Grey Hunters Using Range: Just stay at 24+" and blast them away.

Counter-Attack Counter: Is a wonderful USR, but it only works if you ASSAULT me. You don't Assault Space Wolves I have a completely useless USR.

Adding a Close Combat Weapon: This is great I can get an Extra Attack for the price of an extra Plasma-Gun+ for a full sized Squad. With Chainsword I now cost the same as in the 5th Ed Book. Like Counter Attack you simple don't Assault them or Like Martel keeps chanting blasting them off the map before they can do anything like any other MEQ.

Now this does not mean I think Tactical Squads are Better or Worse than Grey Hunter Packs, just different.

This is LITERALLY the first time I have seen someone complain about the ability to take two special weapons instead of 1 Special and 1 Heavy. 2 Specials is FAR superior because no snap shooting when you have to move, and the fact that Drop Pods are the best way to deliver Tactical Marines to places in the first places, so you would get more out of a weapon when dropping in for the kill.
Also, the complaint about Counter Attack is stupid. That's like saying because Night Fighting isn't taking place, my Crisis Suits or Dark Eldar now have useless USR's. It makes it so your Marines are LESS LIKELY to be charged, which is kinda something good.
Seriously, like, was that post even thought out?

Complain, No, I was pointing out the Disadvantage of 2 Specialist Weapons. I have no Long Range Firepower. 2 13"-24" Plasma Shots really don't do much, to really get the most of them you have to get within 12", there is no other option. Melta-Gun make it 6" and Flamers 8". So Grey Hunters HAVE to move. My Opponent know this and can plan for it.
The Drop Hunters, if that is the "Only" way to use them that means I have no Flexibility, not a sign of a good well rounded unit.
The Counter Attack to me has been completely worthless to me since the 7th Edition BRB rolled out. My opponents do not Assault Me, they just blast me from 25"+ range now, unless they are Orks and Nids.

What I am saying more than anything is Grey Hunters=Tactical Squads in true battlefield power if you opponent know how to deal with them. I can project a solid 12" Don't go near me Bubble, compared to most Tactical Squads who can pull off a 36" Threat Bubble and can combat Squad and have other nifty tricks based on their CT.

I think what you mean is that C:SM Tacticals have one weapon that can reach outside 24". That's not exactly threatening.
When you want to do that, Devastator Squads exist., where you can have your Heavy Weapons exceed your Bolters. Isn't that a bit terrible?

niv-mizzet wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Against the nids, shooting is worthless until the venoms are down, and that only happens after I get some assault in, since I don't have handy ignore cover s8 things. By the time the venoms are down,

You know what I've seen kill dozens of Venomthropes? Tactical Marines dropping right behind them.

*Snort*Snort*Derision*Disbelief*

Yeah, they have 2 wounds, the Marines have 20 shots.

13.3 hits, 6.7 wounds, 1.1 failed save. No halfway decent nid player doesn't get their thropes in some ruins for 2+ cover with some surrounding chaff units, especially when they see a pod over on your reserves table.

Also drop pods are good. I even outlined that in this very thread. Showing up where you want on the table virtually risk-free and able to immediately shoot is amazing, and ANYONE getting to use this, even the less-than-stellar taxicals, can shine. That's more about the drop pod being awesome than the squad though.

Somehow marines being lame always brings out the guy who's like "but they're awesome in drop pods!"
Literally everything you can put in a drop pod is awesome in a drop pod. Alpha strikes from the direction and location that you want are GOOOOOD. (Me I'd rather have my fragiosos take the pods.)

BA Tac Squad taking a heavy flamer, with the sarge carrying a combi-flamer and hand flamer. Not to mention theres always something within 6" of the thrope to get extra hits off of with good positioning.

Your move?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
On Grey Hunters vs Tactical Marines
Yes we get 2 Special Weapons, Counter Attack and the ability to take a CCW. However each can bee seen as an Disadvantage, the keyword it CAN vs the right Opponent who realizes their weakness.

2 Special Weapons: Yes I can take 2 Plasma-Guns which does not tie me down with a Heavy Weapon, but without a Weapon with a range of Greater than 24" I am forced to be mobile or be outranged. This may not seem like a big problem, but unless I am in good cover or a Fortification I must now buy a Transport or move towards me enemy buy leaving the safety of cover.
>A way to beat Grey Hunters Using Range: Just stay at 24+" and blast them away.

Counter-Attack Counter: Is a wonderful USR, but it only works if you ASSAULT me. You don't Assault Space Wolves I have a completely useless USR.

Adding a Close Combat Weapon: This is great I can get an Extra Attack for the price of an extra Plasma-Gun+ for a full sized Squad. With Chainsword I now cost the same as in the 5th Ed Book. Like Counter Attack you simple don't Assault them or Like Martel keeps chanting blasting them off the map before they can do anything like any other MEQ.

Now this does not mean I think Tactical Squads are Better or Worse than Grey Hunter Packs, just different.

This is LITERALLY the first time I have seen someone complain about the ability to take two special weapons instead of 1 Special and 1 Heavy. 2 Specials is FAR superior because no snap shooting when you have to move, and the fact that Drop Pods are the best way to deliver Tactical Marines to places in the first places, so you would get more out of a weapon when dropping in for the kill.
Also, the complaint about Counter Attack is stupid. That's like saying because Night Fighting isn't taking place, my Crisis Suits or Dark Eldar now have useless USR's. It makes it so your Marines are LESS LIKELY to be charged, which is kinda something good.
Seriously, like, was that post even thought out?

Complain, No, I was pointing out the Disadvantage of 2 Specialist Weapons. I have no Long Range Firepower. 2 13"-24" Plasma Shots really don't do much, to really get the most of them you have to get within 12", there is no other option. Melta-Gun make it 6" and Flamers 8". So Grey Hunters HAVE to move. My Opponent know this and can plan for it.
The Drop Hunters, if that is the "Only" way to use them that means I have no Flexibility, not a sign of a good well rounded unit.
The Counter Attack to me has been completely worthless to me since the 7th Edition BRB rolled out. My opponents do not Assault Me, they just blast me from 25"+ range now, unless they are Orks and Nids.

What I am saying more than anything is Grey Hunters=Tactical Squads in true battlefield power if you opponent know how to deal with them. I can project a solid 12" Don't go near me Bubble, compared to most Tactical Squads who can pull off a 36" Threat Bubble and can combat Squad and have other nifty tricks based on their CT.

I think what you mean is that C:SM Tacticals have one weapon that can reach outside 24". That's not exactly threatening.
When you want to do that, Devastator Squads exist., where you can have your Heavy Weapons exceed your Bolters. Isn't that a bit terrible?

Yes, a Plasma-Cannon is not going to stop the Enemy Forces at 36", but 2-4 Can.
My normal Tactical Squad layout is 1 Combi-Plasma, 1 Plasma Gun and 1 Plasma-Cannons. My normal Tactic I use is to Focus my Plasma-Cannons on Transports. Usually the 2nd or 3rd pops the Transport, if I am lucky the 1st one does the job. Once the Transport is opened up the rest focus on the infantry now (Usually Standing in the Smoking Crater).
I can't do that with Grey Hunters on Turn 1.

Susceptible to AP3 or better(lot of it all over)
If they could get a combat knife for an extra attack would be nice

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Susceptible to AP3 or better(lot of it all over)
If they could get a combat knife for an extra attack would be nice

They used to way back when.
I would have no issue with Marines getting their Knife back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well Trying to get back on subject...

For Decades this has been my standard setup for Tactical Squads.
Sargent: Combi-Plasma/Lighting Claw or Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon [Usually a Sword]
7x Tacticals: Bolt-Gun/Bolt Pistol
1x Tactical: Plasma-Gun/Bolt Pistol
1x Tactical: Plasma-Cannon/Bolt Pistol

Though since the 6th C: SM came out I have looking at:
Sargent: Combi-Plasma/Lighting Claw or Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon [Usually a Sword]
7x Tacticals: Bolt-Gun/Bolt Pistol
1x Tactical: Plasma-Gun/Bolt Pistol
1x Tactical: Heavy-Bolter/Bolt Pistol
Imperial Fist/Sentinels of Tara Chapter Tactics.

"Focus my Plasma-Cannons on Transports. Usually the 2nd or 3rd pops the Transport,"

This is incredibly unlikely against most transports. You get a glance on a 4+ and on a pen only get a kill on a "6", thanks to 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
"Focus my Plasma-Cannons on Transports. Usually the 2nd or 3rd pops the Transport,"

This is incredibly unlikely against most transports. You get a glance on a 4+ and on a pen only get a kill on a "6", thanks to 7th ed.

Like I stated earlier, I seem have luck with Plasma, my First Shot usually gets a Glance or Pen, that pen is usually a Crew Stunned or Weapon Destroyed. The Second is usually another Pen and either a Immobilized, Weapon Destroyed [and if they did not take the 2nd Storm-Bolter now an Immobilized] or I roll a 6.
However my Las-Cannon and Melta shots usually don't even Glance, don't ask why anymore. I have stopped fighting it and just stick with my Plasma.

Anpu42 wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
If they could get a combat knife for an extra attack would be nice

They used to way back when.
I would have no issue with Marines getting their Knife back.

You know, there are very up-to-date rules for knives in this game. A power knife is Melee S-1 AP3 Specialist Weapon. Go ahead and put knives in the wargear, it will be a very minor help if you happen to take a specialist weapon on the sergeant.

I think it's dumb from a background perspective, and even getting a real ccw would not make tactical squads good for anything they are not good for already.

Martel732 wrote:I don't think we're playing the same game. Tactical squads don't have a 36" threat bubble. In practice, it's 12" just like your Grey Hunters.

Supposedly the good lists in fifth edition were an MSU network of 5+ tactical squad heavy weapons and spammed Fast Attack multi-meltas. Which, like you said, is a totally different game. 3x multi-melta combat squads, 3x plasma cannon combat squads and 6x meltagun rhinos are are totally different things in 7th edition than they were then and with Grav, Riptides, or Serpent Shields they just evaporate.


I think you are wrong that they have a 12" threat bubble, it doesn't seem that threatening to me.

 TranSpyre wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Against the nids, shooting is worthless until the venoms are down, and that only happens after I get some assault in, since I don't have handy ignore cover s8 things. By the time the venoms are down,

You know what I've seen kill dozens of Venomthropes? Tactical Marines dropping right behind them.

*Snort*Snort*Derision*Disbelief*

Yeah, they have 2 wounds, the Marines have 20 shots.

13.3 hits, 6.7 wounds, 1.1 failed save. No halfway decent nid player doesn't get their thropes in some ruins for 2+ cover with some surrounding chaff units, especially when they see a pod over on your reserves table.

Also drop pods are good. I even outlined that in this very thread. Showing up where you want on the table virtually risk-free and able to immediately shoot is amazing, and ANYONE getting to use this, even the less-than-stellar taxicals, can shine. That's more about the drop pod being awesome than the squad though.

Somehow marines being lame always brings out the guy who's like "but they're awesome in drop pods!"
Literally everything you can put in a drop pod is awesome in a drop pod. Alpha strikes from the direction and location that you want are GOOOOOD. (Me I'd rather have my fragiosos take the pods.)

BA Tac Squad taking a heavy flamer, with the sarge carrying a combi-flamer and hand flamer. Not to mention theres always something within 6" of the thrope to get extra hits off of with good positioning.

Your move?

Not only are you still going on about pod-tacticals being awesome, now you're delving into list tailoring territory. We don't do that here. I'm sure if I brought up salamander terminators, you'd have the same argument, but with plasmamcplasplas squad instead of flameymcflameflame squad.

Again, for like the 5th time today, pods being awesome doesn't = the unit inside being awesome. There are several other units that can use the pod better, like sternguard (which could combat squad and down two venomthropes at once!) or fragiosos. And then we're back to the original OP. Tac marines suck, and wouldn't be taken except that they're mandatory to not be unbound. And by the people who apparently are playing a different game where tac marines actually accomplish things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand, that brings up an interesting idea.

What if tac squads were allowed to leave some points banked, and then buy their load outs with banked points after seeing mission/table setups and enemy army composition?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Focus my Plasma-Cannons on Transports. Usually the 2nd or 3rd pops the Transport,"

This is incredibly unlikely against most transports. You get a glance on a 4+ and on a pen only get a kill on a "6", thanks to 7th ed.

Like I stated earlier, I seem have luck with Plasma, my First Shot usually gets a Glance or Pen, that pen is usually a Crew Stunned or Weapon Destroyed. The Second is usually another Pen and either a Immobilized, Weapon Destroyed [and if they did not take the 2nd Storm-Bolter now an Immobilized] or I roll a 6.
However my Las-Cannon and Melta shots usually don't even Glance, don't ask why anymore. I have stopped fighting it and just stick with my Plasma.

That is a bunch of superstitious nonsense. It is not usable in a general discussion.

"For Decades this has been my standard setup for Tactical Squads.
Sargent: Combi-Plasma/Lighting Claw or Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon [Usually a Sword]
7x Tacticals: Bolt-Gun/Bolt Pistol
1x Tactical: Plasma-Gun/Bolt Pistol
1x Tactical: Plasma-Cannon/Bolt Pistol "

Yeah, very weak firepower outside 12" and if it gets into HTH, it dies like slime. Just like we are saying. Grey Hunters have every advantage, because I can discount your firepower outside 12". You are not popping my transports with the plasma cannon consistently enough for me to worry about. That squad gets ignored until I'm ready to kill it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Focus my Plasma-Cannons on Transports. Usually the 2nd or 3rd pops the Transport,"

This is incredibly unlikely against most transports. You get a glance on a 4+ and on a pen only get a kill on a "6", thanks to 7th ed.

Like I stated earlier, I seem have luck with Plasma, my First Shot usually gets a Glance or Pen, that pen is usually a Crew Stunned or Weapon Destroyed. The Second is usually another Pen and either a Immobilized, Weapon Destroyed [and if they did not take the 2nd Storm-Bolter now an Immobilized] or I roll a 6.
However my Las-Cannon and Melta shots usually don't even Glance, don't ask why anymore. I have stopped fighting it and just stick with my Plasma.

That is a bunch of superstitious nonsense. It is not usable in a general discussion.

Superstition or not this is what has happen time after time to me.

Now for others Plasma does not work, but Las-Cannons might be a Better choice or Missile Launchers, the principle is the same.
One [Insert Heavy Weapon of choice] Does little. 2-4 [Insert Heavy Weapon of choice] can take down [Insert Target of choice] at range until they get close enough for your Bolt Guns and [Insert Special Weapon of Choice].

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Focus my Plasma-Cannons on Transports. Usually the 2nd or 3rd pops the Transport,"

This is incredibly unlikely against most transports. You get a glance on a 4+ and on a pen only get a kill on a "6", thanks to 7th ed.

Like I stated earlier, I seem have luck with Plasma, my First Shot usually gets a Glance or Pen, that pen is usually a Crew Stunned or Weapon Destroyed. The Second is usually another Pen and either a Immobilized, Weapon Destroyed [and if they did not take the 2nd Storm-Bolter now an Immobilized] or I roll a 6.
However my Las-Cannon and Melta shots usually don't even Glance, don't ask why anymore. I have stopped fighting it and just stick with my Plasma.

That is a bunch of superstitious nonsense. It is not usable in a general discussion.

Superstition or not this is what has happen time after time to me.

Now for others Plasma does not work, but Las-Cannons might be a Better choice or Missile Launchers, the principle is the same.
One [Insert Heavy Weapon of choice] Does little. 2-4 [Insert Heavy Weapon of choice] can take down [Insert Target of choice] at range until they get close enough for your Bolt Guns and [Insert Special Weapon of Choice].

Needing four army slots to kill a Rhino is insane. Yet, this is what you are proposing.

I can assure you you won't be popping all my transports with the amount of plasma you are talking about. It doesn't really matter what your experiences are. The law of massive amounts of dice works.