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 SkrawnyNob wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If they attack a Dreadknight, the guy with the Shield Eternal challenges and I flail uselessly against him while everyone gets to still hit the DK.

I don't have any better advice than what has been offered so far. I just want to make sure this scenario is being played correctly. The NDK does not have the Character type. He cannot issue nor accept challenges.
Not sure if this helps in that situation. Maybe the NDK takes out 3-4 bodyguards and then it'll be easier for him to survive. Although it would be better if the NDK assaulted along with another unit of Terminators or something. At that points level you should really be able to double-team him, which is always something that should be considered over 1v1 matchups. No 2 units exist in a vacuum; use all the units you brought to the table.

Not correct. The nemesis dreadknight does indeed have character, so challenge is a issue. It was the same in the last edtion codex. I have had great fun with this against CSM who must accept. But in this case it makes its possible for the chapter master with eternal warrior to tank out a dreadknight, Good luck against WSxxx, 4 wounds 3+ save, feel no pain and i will not die....

Most bikestars over here has gravguns. The dreadknights are usually dead before they get into CC. Bikes with gravguns out-treath dreadknights.

 Grey Templar wrote:

As for the rest of the list these guys are in. Its basically 3 scout squads in LSS, a DA Vet squad with 5 meltas in a pod, and 2 TFCs. Due to the missions we use(they're custom missions) I usually cannot ignore this unit and just kill everything else.

Try changing the missions up. Maelstrom missions for example will make life hard on his army. Unfortunately they aren't really friendly to GK lists either.

Alternately your gonna need allies. Theres plenty of options but I would lean towards something that ignores cover and has mobility. One of the best counters would likely be draigo + cents. Roll up perfect timing and remove his hit and run bunker then his CMs. With 2 libbys the chances are good you will get invis too. Wish him good luck trying to beat invisible draigo cents.

Eldar Lynx, Revenant. scorpion or cobra. Problem solved. Then laugh at him since there is only one Chapter master per chapter and he is playing it wrong.

Col. Dash wrote:
Eldar Lynx, Revenant. scorpion or cobra. Problem solved. Then laugh at him since there is only one Chapter master per chapter and he is playing it wrong.

You can have as many number of chapter masters as you want. there is no rules bearing on #

Fluff wise they can be some kinda outstanding captain.

If the CM challenges how can the other guys in his unit hit the DK. Doesn't the Challenge prevent that?

Also another option would be to take a vindicare assassin his shield breaker round will punch through that invuln save. and the turbo penetrator round will lay on multiple wounds.

 Desubot wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Eldar Lynx, Revenant. scorpion or cobra. Problem solved. Then laugh at him since there is only one Chapter master per chapter and he is playing it wrong.

You can have as many number of chapter masters as you want. there is no rules bearing on #

Fluff wise they can be some kinda outstanding captain.

Or two successor chapters with the same tactics.

 GKTiberius wrote:
If the CM challenges how can the other guys in his unit hit the DK. Doesn't the Challenge prevent that?

Also another option would be to take a vindicare assassin his shield breaker round will punch through that invuln save. and the turbo penetrator round will lay on multiple wounds.

7th no more hiding.

Vindicare changed.

you gotta catch up with the times

 GKTiberius wrote:
If the CM challenges how can the other guys in his unit hit the DK. Doesn't the Challenge prevent that?

Not anymore, unless you have something else in that fight to soak up the unit's wounds. Although getting his EW CM in a challenge is a good way to make wounds go to the squishier guys.

Also another option would be to take a vindicare assassin his shield breaker round will punch through that invuln save. and the turbo penetrator round will lay on multiple wounds.

The Vindecare is awful against this unit unless you count the first shot with which you murder the apothecary or have loaded dice.

Except he will overkill the squisher guy, and the wounds will spill over to the rest of the unit.

And the vindi is really there to nuke the single-wound buffers like the apoth, not to get the 3++ dudes.

Yeah, he only has a 1 in 4 chance of stripping a wound from an IC with an invuln save 1 in 6 w FNP, but a non character with no save is easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'm thinking the simplest might be an Ordo Xenos inquisitor or biomancy psyker with Enfeeble + some Thunderhammers. The problem is getting him to accept the challenge with his EW CM so that the hammers can remove the other guys. It should only take about 9 wounds to clean out the squad while they're at T4, and the best part is FNP wouldn't save them. Or attack with multiple AP3 or better force weapons at the same time. ID negates FNP and the makes using the second CM's 3++ risky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and challenges are a must because otherwise the EW can take all the hits.

Tyfus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

What are you talking about? GKs are really competitive on their own with their annoying alpha strike and cheesy dreadknights, allies just make them even cheesier and extremely OP.

Nope i disagree. It's only a few good units in the codex and not enough for pure GK-army. Mind you i'm talking about competitive play in GT. For funny games or pick-up games everything goes.

There has been a lot of big/medium GT now. I don't know of a single of those GTs where pure GK has placed well. There is however some GTs where GK centurionstar has placed good among top 10. Nova open invitaional was won by GK centurionstar. Pure GK is dead in competitive play IMO.

Since my main army is GK i would prefered this was not true.

Edit: and a centurionstar is hardly more cheesy than a fully kitted bikestar as the OP mentioned. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight !

All of your units are good, but they're just overshadowed by the Dreadknight as it is too cheesy. Just like with Tyranids, the Hive Tyrant overshadows everything.
You get AP3 and Brotherhood of Psykers for hardly any points. Your Terminators are one of the best in the game; being ridiculously cheap for what they do.
You can combat squad units to double up on psychic dice, giving FOUR DICE for combat squading Purifiers. Now tell me how that's not broken.

Compare your codex to many other codices, and even without allies, you will have a good chance of winning.
In my gaming group, when I play Tau against CSM, my win rate is 50%. Now compare when the same CSM player goes against GK, the GK player has won 5/6 games.
Is that balanced? No.
Note: this was competitive play.

With all the complaints about Tau (in general, not in this thread) you'd expect them to win 90% of games, and tell me where Tau come in these tournaments. Do any lists come in the top 10?

IoM in 7th is so cheesy, far more so than Taudar in 6th, but no one cares as its IoM who is good.

Oh I am aware the rules allow for it. I said it in jest although in the spirit of the game it is poor sportsmanship to do something cheesy like that, but then again, there is a reason I do not play WAAC players or competitively anymore

The easy way to beat that is with a sledgehammer....

Issodon as warlord. 50 conscripts with priest. 50 guardsmen with issodon +5 power axes. Infiltrate both units 18" away from the star, scout the guardsmen forward a further 6". Make sure the units are spread in a wide cresent around the star. One unit is fearless the other has ATSKNF. First he has to eat through 53 wounds which are also hitting back with 15 st4 ap2 attacks, so will be smashing down some of the bikes in combat. When he finally munches through this unit (or they back off due to ATSKNF, he then has to chew through the fearless conscripts.

Can't move around 102 bodies in a cresent around you who are in your face turn 1.

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

What are you talking about? GKs are really competitive on their own with their annoying alpha strike and cheesy dreadknights, allies just make them even cheesier and extremely OP.

Nope i disagree. It's only a few good units in the codex and not enough for pure GK-army. Mind you i'm talking about competitive play in GT. For funny games or pick-up games everything goes.

There has been a lot of big/medium GT now. I don't know of a single of those GTs where pure GK has placed well. There is however some GTs where GK centurionstar has placed good among top 10. Nova open invitaional was won by GK centurionstar. Pure GK is dead in competitive play IMO.

Since my main army is GK i would prefered this was not true.

Edit: and a centurionstar is hardly more cheesy than a fully kitted bikestar as the OP mentioned. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight !

All of your units are good, but they're just overshadowed by the Dreadknight as it is too cheesy. Just like with Tyranids, the Hive Tyrant overshadows everything.
You get AP3 and Brotherhood of Psykers for hardly any points. Your Terminators are one of the best in the game; being ridiculously cheap for what they do.
You can combat squad units to double up on psychic dice, giving FOUR DICE for combat squading Purifiers. Now tell me how that's not broken.

Compare your codex to many other codices, and even without allies, you will have a good chance of winning.
In my gaming group, when I play Tau against CSM, my win rate is 50%. Now compare when the same CSM player goes against GK, the GK player has won 5/6 games.
Is that balanced? No.
Note: this was competitive play.

With all the complaints about Tau (in general, not in this thread) you'd expect them to win 90% of games, and tell me where Tau come in these tournaments. Do any lists come in the top 10?

IoM in 7th is so cheesy, far more so than Taudar in 6th, but no one cares as its IoM who is good.

Guess we have to disagree.

It's impossible to argue against you're personal track record with GK. My own track record is not similar, and more in accordance with something you can measure: in the bigger and medium GTs pure GK is not placing good.

GK internal balance is one of the worst i can remember from GW.

The only really good units are libby and dreadknights. Draigo and purifiers are decent, but situational. Shure purifiers stats and powers are good, but they are expensive and need a delivery system.
Terminators are a little cheaper than before, but not much because the weapons you need is more expensive. The BIG problem is that termies still suck in correct meta. They don't shoot good and are slow as hell.

I wouldn't call dreadknight OP or cheesy, but good. It's almost 200 points for a standard build with teleporter, sword and incernator. He usually will have too get into cc to get his points back. With 4 wounds T6 he is not that hard to kill. Compare him to riptide or wraithknights. For their points they are better IMO.

And who are complaining about tau now ? They got nerfed good in 7.ed. Eldar and knights are what people are complaining about now.

7. ed is all about good shooting units (long range, high stength and volume of fire) and fast resilient assault units. Sadly GK is lacking here.

So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

D Strength weapons?

The next best thing I can think of is off the board and shame them for being a series of less than kind words compensating for a lack of tactical or strategic thought. It would a moral victory however.

Honestly its fine. and some circles enjoy though and insane lists.

Honestly though this is like the only time id love to see a BUNCH of basillisks just pepper that massive blob just to bypass all the 3++s

Or that superheavy with the AP3 massive blasts that can ignore cover.

or the Tau flying one that does the same thing.

id love to see him tank that many wounds.

The problem with templates is those guys have no reason to bunch up unless you catch them right after they killed on of your units on their turn and rolled badly on the consolidation move, or if you get them to assault a vehicle.

Mavnas wrote:
The problem with templates is those guys have no reason to bunch up unless you catch them right after they killed on of your units on their turn and rolled badly on the consolidation move, or if you get them to assault a vehicle.

Well that part will depend on what kinda terrain you play on too.

Usually with big LOS blockers or impassible pieces that you can use to make bottle necks. Also leaving sacrifice units to force them to consolidate close together. even with 6" of movement they cant all get out of the way that fast.

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

Unless he rolls a 6 he can Hit and Run and move 3d6 away. If you charge him you can add 12" onto that. One of the axes will die in a challenge or be unable to swing because you refused it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Doesn't matter does it, once the CM starts making saves he makes all of them until he dies, unless you rolled some 6s. So I guess you might get 1 kill.

It absolutely matters
The point is you are removing his Hit and run ASAP

Weight of bodies and a few Ap2-3 will help get rid of em.

And its far easier to pull those attacks off to the side to allocate them properly.

 Peregrine wrote:
The solution to this and every other elite infantry problem:

Wazzat and can the Renegade & Heretic get it too?

so this guy uses an uber cheese allied death star list. and puts together a custom mission forcing you to engage it?

the best advice I can supply man is find someone else to play against

Mavnas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

Unless he rolls a 6 he can Hit and Run and move 3d6 away. If you charge him you can add 12" onto that. One of the axes will die in a challenge or be unable to swing because you refused it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Doesn't matter does it, once the CM starts making saves he makes all of them until he dies, unless you rolled some 6s. So I guess you might get 1 kill.

Even if you move 3d6" away, you can't move through the unit, and if you move away there is still 102 (less casualties in a cresent around you. Also I did not count issodons power axe attacks as I assumed it would be him that would be refusing the challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The units will pin the biker unit on their back line. If you don't believe me take some proxy models and set 51 models out 18" and another 51 models 12" away from the unit in a cresent. Then try (even with hit and run) trying to get around them.

BrianDavion wrote:
so this guy uses an uber cheese allied death star list. and puts together a custom mission forcing you to engage it?

the best advice I can supply man is find someone else to play against

Nah, they're a local tournament missions.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

Unless he rolls a 6 he can Hit and Run and move 3d6 away. If you charge him you can add 12" onto that. One of the axes will die in a challenge or be unable to swing because you refused it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Doesn't matter does it, once the CM starts making saves he makes all of them until he dies, unless you rolled some 6s. So I guess you might get 1 kill.

Even if you move 3d6" away, you can't move through the unit, and if you move away there is still 102 (less casualties in a cresent around you. Also I did not count issodons power axe attacks as I assumed it would be him that would be refusing the challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The units will pin the biker unit on their back line. If you don't believe me take some proxy models and set 51 models out 18" and another 51 models 12" away from the unit in a cresent. Then try (even with hit and run) trying to get around them.

Maybe, but like I said, bolters will punch holes in there and all you need is one 3" gap or so to Hit and Run through the unit. I don't think blobs are a bad idea, I just think you have to take out the Ravenwing guys first because he loses a lot of attacks that way. The two CMs aren't so bad by themselves vs. cheap bodies, but the bikes' bolters should remove about 8-10 models to begin with. It really depends on the other terrain, I guess.

Short Version of how to get eff up a death star.

Inquisitor 25 points
Servo Skulls 3 points each / 9 total
(reduce scatter die within 12in to 1d6)
3 Servitors w/ Plasma Cannons (Str 7 AP2) 36" range

94 points each. Throw two or three in any army.

Put them behind an Aegis line if you want.
Or one in an Imperial Bunker.