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2014/12/17 22:14:57
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
I disagree. I think that it is working poorly. We are falling behind the rest of the world in nearly every quantifiable category. Our corporations are leaving us, our kids leave high school unfit for the workforce, I could go on. We have a 2 party system that is not the envy of anyone in the free world. When congress fails to pass a spending bill or anything other job that has been given to them by the constitution they should be fired. That's what would happen to anyone else. Dissolve congress and hold elections with every seat up for grabs in 3 months time. The founding fathers could not possibly have imagined the current lack of accountability by our government officials. Our election process is a joke and seems to become more of one every 4 years. We are regressing, held up by our economy and military power. It can't last, but it's not in the best interest of the powers that be, Republican or Democrat, to fix it. So down we go.
It's safe to say that I've been vocal about how things are going... particularly towards the Democrat side of the party. But, the Republicans ain't looking like fething angels either.
However, I ain't thatpessimistic.
I simply think the old guards need to retire from politics (ie, the Baby Boomers). Get more new blood in... which this last election did admirably.
Also... for the love of God primary voters... no Jeb Bush!
You want pessimism? How's this:
We are collapsing under the weight of our own democracy. Decisive drastic measures are difficult in a democracy, yet with every year we sink lower, the measures to right this ship become more and more difficult to enact within a democratic framework. We are losing our freedom a little bit at a time through our procrastination and self interest. When events finally spur us to action on an issue, we invariably give up some of our democratic system to fix it. Sweeping bureaucratic powers after 9/11. Sweeping Federal Reserve powers after the financial crisis. We have so lost the ability to govern ourselves that we are incapable of fixing any problem in advance. It must become a crisis before it is dealt with. Otherwise it will be kicked down the road. Those crisises will gradually wear away at our democratic principles until they are gone. (Some might argue they already are)
Now, I don't want that to happen. I want to think that we will figure things out. I want to think that the ideals that made the US great will be perserved. However, what I know about human nature doesn't lend itself to that belief. We are in a death spiral that we can only break by first acknowledging it's existence. I hope I am wrong. I really do, but I fear it is already too late. I need a beer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:44:50
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/17 22:37:21
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
The benefactors of President Obama’s ill-advised move will be the heinous Castro brothers who have oppressed the Cuban people for decades.
I am delighted that Alan Gross has been released. It will be a joy and relief for his wife and family to have him home this Hanukkah season. He is innocent and should never have been in prison in the first place, nor spent five long years there as he suffered in poor health. It is, however, unfortunate that the United States chose to release three convicted spies.
Cuba is a dictatorship with a disastrous human rights record, and now President Obama has rewarded those dictators. We should instead be fostering efforts that will truly lead to the fair, legitimate democracy that will ultimately prevail in Cuba.
Huh... it's all about Florida now...
I wonder what Hillary/Warren has to say??
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 00:16:59
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/12/17 23:18:49
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Well... the Florida politicians are pipping hot...
One might think they have a voting block ex-Cubans there that have curtailed almost any change in policy for decades. It is almost always Florida that makes the most noise on the subject.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2014/12/18 00:36:32
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Jehan-reznor wrote: So is Fox foaming at the mouth yet, claiming that Obama is a Muslim and a Communist now?
Did they ever stop?
But seriously, it's about time this was addressed, if they have something to offer the rest of the country in trade/what have you, it should outweigh the complaining of a few people in Florida.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2014/12/18 14:32:07
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Oh goodness!
Obama is finishing up his second term, he should "come-out" as a practicing Muslim for giggles.
I think he should arrange a vacation day in Cuba to solidify ties and be shown having a drink with Castro.
Since seeing the shenanigans our Pierre Trudeau did in office I really think leaders need to let their hair down.
The Joker meme of "Why so serious?" really applies.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/12/18 14:33:43
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Jehan-reznor wrote: So is Fox foaming at the mouth yet, claiming that Obama is a Muslim and a Communist now?
Did they ever stop?
When have they ever?
But seriously, it's about time this was addressed, if they have something to offer the rest of the country in trade/what have you, it should outweigh the complaining of a few people in Florida.
Ask yourself this...
Did this look like a great "win" for the Castros?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/12/18 14:44:07
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Jehan-reznor wrote: So is Fox foaming at the mouth yet, claiming that Obama is a Muslim and a Communist now?
Did they ever stop?
When have they ever?
But seriously, it's about time this was addressed, if they have something to offer the rest of the country in trade/what have you, it should outweigh the complaining of a few people in Florida.
Ask yourself this...
Did this look like a great "win" for the Castros?
I'm sure it does, but that doesn't matter in the long run. This is about Coca-cola democracy. We get them to open up and eventually capitalism will run rampant. We will get beach vacations and they will get money. Give people cash and they will want goods. Communism doesn't do goods well. What I see this as is a kick in the teeth to Hugo Chavez's legacy. That alone is enough for me.
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 15:52:37
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
It's long past time this happened. Sanctions only work if more than one country back them. The US has blocked trade with Cuba for 50 years. The rest of the world... not so much (my Irish cousin had her honeymoon in Cuba because that's a thing you can do when you aren't American).
The best way to destroy closed economic and political systems is through an influx of capitalism. Socialism prevents you from developing a case of communisim, but nothing outright cures communism like 20ccs of capitalism (administered orally). The influx of goods and money (very little of it in local currency) will force a shift in perceptions and attitudes among the populace. Give the Cubans access to the kinds of material things we have here and they are eventually going to start looking at all the other things we have, up to and including freedom of speech and a more democratic government. It won't happen over night, but this is the death knell of the Castro regime.
Oh, and about the prisoner swap... it isn't being reported on much, but we didn't swap Gross for three Cuban spies. We swapped three Cuban spies for a spy we had in Cuba who has been in prison for twenty years. Gross was a bonus, but this wasn't a case of giving in to hostage takers/ the terrorists win. We were doing a plain-old, boring Cold War spy swap. We just happened to get a civillian along at the same time.
Even more appropriate; the guy Cuba released to us is the man who told us about the three Cubans we are releasing. So our guy tells us about their guys, we catch their guys but they catch our guy, everybody gets stuck in prison for twenty years, then we decide "feth it" and let their guys go in exchange for our guy.
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2014/12/18 15:59:35
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Are we conveniently ignoring that China, Russia, Latin America, Canada, and Europe have been spending money in Cuba for decades and it hasn't changed anything.
What makes you think that somehow US money will change everything??
The Castro regime is still in power...
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/12/18 15:59:37
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Anybody else notice how Frazz disappears when we've got a thread about Communism?
I swear, a few months ago, when the Chinese Communist party meet for the first time in donkey's years to elect a new leader, that day was the only day I've ever seen the dakka forum absent of Frazz. Highly suspicious.
Anyway, back OT
Been following American papers/news quite closely on this won, and the usual suspects are wailing about Obama appeasing dictators, but this level of economic freedom is the sort of thing that could topple Cuban Communism. The Castro brothers won't be around for ever, the spectre of the cold war will slowly diminish in the USA as younger generations come to the fore.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2014/12/18 16:08:55
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Yeah, but... so what? What difference does it make to us? We happily do business with regimes way worse because they make our Iphones. Our focus on some tiny island nation with no meaningful military presence or threat of any articulable kind to mainland US interests is just bizarre, at best.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/12/18 16:11:42
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Are we conveniently ignoring that China, Russia, Latin America, Canada, and Europe have been spending money in Cuba for decades and it hasn't changed anything.
What makes you think that somehow US money will change everything??
The Castro regime is still in power...
The money from the US won't have to travel as far, so it will smell fresher and won't be as jetlagged as the money from Europe, China, or Canada. This will allow it to accomplish more in less time than the money from other countries. However, there is the fact that the American money won't know any local customs and will expect everyone to speak English that will work against it.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
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2014/12/18 16:13:59
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
US money has changed China. It hasn't turned them into beacons of democratic freedom, but they have gotten better and the dollar has a lot to do with that.
No other country is doing to do the kind of trade with Cuba that we can. It's not logistically practical. It will make them wealthier, which will make them ask more of their government. Communism needs poverty to survive.
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 16:29:33
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Yeah, but... so what? What difference does it make to us? We happily do business with regimes way worse because they make our Iphones. Our focus on some tiny island nation with no meaningful military presence or threat of any articulable kind to mainland US interests is just bizarre, at best.
Why do you want to empower the Castro regime even more? No matter what *WE* do... nothing will change with average Cubans because the government has absolute total control.
I don't mind trying to establish diplomatic ties... I believe that's a worthy endeavor.
But the thinking that lifting the embargo and such would hasten the fall of a "Communist Cuba" is kidding themselves...
President Obama announced a radical change in U.S. policy towards Cuba today, and reactions range from the ecstatic to the outraged. According to a White House fact sheet on the topic that was sent to congressional offices on Capitol Hill, the new policy will allow Americans to import up to $400 in Cuban goods, of which up to $100 can be alcohol or tobacco products (like cigars). The new policy will also increase the threshold on remittances — payments sent from people in the U.S. to people in Cuba, most likely family members — from $500 to $2,000.
And here’s what the White House’s Cuba fact sheet said about commercial exports:
The expansion will seek to empower the nascent Cuban private sector. Items that will be authorized for export include certain building materials for private residential construction, goods for use by private sector Cuban entrepreneurs, and agricultural equipment for small farmers. This change will make it easier for Cuban citizens to have access to certain lower-priced goods to improve their living standards and gain greater economic independence from the state.
Oh, yeah: the Obama administration also, just by coincidence, announced a hostage swap at the same time.
Lawmakers with family ties to Cuba, like Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) and Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) lashed out at the Obama administration’s decision.
'Barack Obama Is the Worst Negotiator Since Jimmy Carter!' Rubio Blasts President's 'Absurd' Cuba Concessions http://t.co/ubZS0hOnwz #USCuba
Fox Nation (@foxnation) December 17, 2014 Chair of Senate Foreign Rel Cmte, Senator Menendez-“Trading Mr. Gross for three convicted criminals sets an extremely dangerous precedent.”
GeorgeStephanopoulos (@GStephanopoulos) December 17, 2014
Free traders like Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) applauded the move, basically saying that more trade would eventually lead to more freedom:
GOP Sen Flake: "In our interests to allow Americans to travel, have better relations…best chance of spurring good developments in Cuba"
Caitlin Huey-Burns (@CHueyBurnsRCP) December 17, 2014
I want to believe the free trade rhetoric. I want to believe that any type of relaxation of the embargo would benefit the Cuban people. I really do. But I don’t, and here’s why.
Cuba’s economy is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it actually has two economies: the dollar economy, and the peso economy. Americans who are allowed to visit get to participate in the dollar economy, and only the dollar economy. Cubans who live there are required to participate in the peso economy, and only the peso economy. The markets are completely segregated.
So, when an American goes down there, he buys things with either the dollar, or the Cuban version of the dollar (CUC), which generally has a 1:1 conversion ratio. Cubans are forced to use only the peso (CUP), which has roughly a 25:1 conversion ratio to the dollar (for every 25 CUP, you get one dollar; or for every 1 CUP, you get about $0.04). That rate is set by the Cuban government. That leaves Cuban vendors who accept dollars with only two ways of using those dollars to get the things they need to survive: 1) purchase them on the black market using dollars, a risky proposition for obvious reasons, or 2) exchange the dollars for CUP.
There’s no trading the CUP on the open currency market. Apart from sentimental souvenir value, it’s worthless everywhere else in the world. Whenever a Cuban gets his hand on a dollar, he either has to put himself at risk by using it on the black market, or he has to turn the dollar into the government in order to receive a pittance which he can use to buy food for his family.
The Cuban government, in turn, has two ways of screwing its people out of their hard-earned money: 1) it can either tax them to death, or 2) it can just manipulate its exchange rate, a way to effectively tax them to death. Different means, same ends. Cuba’s communist, after all, and communism is not a system that has ever put the welfare of its people ahead of the welfare of its rulers.
The result of the Cuban two-currency economy — one of which is forbidden to its people — is that every dollar will eventually find its way into the hands of the Cuban government. Since their internal currency, the CUP, is worthless, it’s not like they can just exchange it for dollars on the open market, like most other countries do. No, if the Cuban government wants dollars and the wealth that comes with them, it has to import them. And more dollars don’t mean more prosperity for the people of Cuba; more dollars means more wealth and power concentrated in the hands of Cuba’s communist regime.
We'll know Cuba is interested in "free trade" when it 1) frees its people, and 2) frees its currency. That gov't. wants dollars, not trade. — Sean Davis (@seanmdav) December 17, 2014
I’m a big fan of free trade, in the real sense of the term. Free markets, free people, and free flow of capital benefit everyone. But you can’t have ‘free trade’ if you don’t have each of those components. Sure, more dollars may now flow into Cuba, but that won’t result in freer people, freer markets, or freer capital, because the current communist regime has no interest in allowing any of those to happen.
If Cuba truly wants free trade, then it needs to free its people, free its markets, and free its currency. Until then, any changes to the trade embargo are just going to be free money for corrupt Cuban communists.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:41:53
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/12/18 16:48:38
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
See, my premise is that I don't care if free trade hastens the fall of Cuban Communism or does nothing to it at all. Whatever, that's the business of the Cuban people. In what world does it make sense that we have a trade embargo with Cuba while we give billions of dollars in foreign aid to Pakistan?
The funny part about this is that you sort of thought this was a good idea initially and now that you've tapped into the noise machine, you're slowly changing your opinion - realizing that any foreign policy success for the Obama administration is undesirable, regardless of what markets it opens to us, or that it might hasten greater freedom, or whatever other desirable outcomes are possible and to the net benefit of America - the most important thing is that Obama is history's greatest monster.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:56:40
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/12/18 17:09:50
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Ouze wrote: See, my premise is that I don't care if free trade hastens the fall of Cuban Communism or does nothing to it at all. Whatever, that's the business of the Cuban people. In what world does it make sense that we have a trade embargo with Cuba while we give billions of dollars in foreign aid to Pakistan?
In what world do you think we should have a "cookie-cutter" foreign policy?
The funny part about this is that you sort of thought this was a good idea initially
I still think it's a good idea, as the initial reports were the swapage of spies and re-establishing diplomaticties (embassy). I only question the timing... but, hey, everything is political so just accept that for what it is...
Those are good things and President Obama should be commended on that front.
and now that you've tapped into the noise machine, you're slowly changing your opinion - realizing that any foreign policy success for the Obama administration is undesirable, regardless of what markets it opens to us, or that it might hasten greater freedom, or whatever other desirable outcomes are possible and to the net benefit of America - the most important thing is that Obama is history's greatest monster.
Ouze, you're starting to sound ridiculous here...
Name some other Foreign Policies that Obama has excelled at...
That's why I'm pessimistic about any outcome with respect to Cuba for as long as Obama is in Office.
"History's Greatest Monster"? No...
In the runnings for the worst President ever? You betcha.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:10:36
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/12/18 19:12:05
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Are we conveniently ignoring that China, Russia, Latin America, Canada, and Europe have been spending money in Cuba for decades and it hasn't changed anything.
What makes you think that somehow US money will change everything??
The Castro regime is still in power...
Which why it is about time we had a seat at the table. You know.... Monroe Doctrine and all that noise.
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2014/12/18 19:28:40
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
In the runnings for the worst President ever? You betcha.
Not even close. Buchanon, The first Johnson, Wilson, Hoover, and Dubya are all way ahead of him. Bottom half definitely, bottom quartile possibly, but not the worst.
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 19:29:16
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
In the runnings for the worst President ever? You betcha.
Not even close. Buchanon, The first Johnson, Wilson, Hoover, and Dubya are all way ahead of him. Bottom half definitely, bottom quartile possibly, but not the worst.
We'll argue that after the 2016 election...m'kay?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/12/18 19:33:27
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
In the runnings for the worst President ever? You betcha.
Not even close. Buchanon, The first Johnson, Wilson, Hoover, and Dubya are all way ahead of him. Bottom half definitely, bottom quartile possibly, but not the worst.
We'll argue that after the 2016 election...m'kay?
With congress against him, I doubt he will finish strong enough to make a dent. You need help to be truly bad. Buchanon had the most dysfunctional congress in history. Andrew Johnson had his confederate cronies and alcohol, Wilson had his Eugenicists friends, Hoover had economic idiots, and Bush had Cheney & friends. Obama has no friends. He's a lousy liberal, the Republicans would hate Jesus if he was a Democrat, and his cabinet reshuffles every few minutes. He might try to get to the bottom, but it is not possible in 2 years. Now, if he allows things to degrade into a civil war, tries to block the voting rights of an ethnic group, allows people to be forcibly sterilized while invading our sovereign neighbors, repeatedly, causes a second great depression, or starts an uncalled for war while cutting taxes causing a massive deficit while ignoring a conflict with a country that legitimately attacked us, then we can argue.
Personally my vote goes to Wilson. The only reason he wasn't a Nazi is because they didn't exist yet. All this hyperbole about Obama hurts the credibility of the people who spout it.
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 20:14:53
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
This all just seems like so much rhetoric at this point.
Cuba with it's embargo economically does not matter to the USA at this moment. It is easy to judge their government and their methods while turning a blind eye to China which floats the North American lifestyle economically.
Had some lively discussions with Cubans and they have a fondness for "Papa Castro" almost like the slightly nutty uncle who means well.
Had a fellow point out "You have your family, my whole neighborhood block is my family.".
They look out for each other and appear to have no real gripe with their government but a whole lot of anger over the US embargo.
They are leaders in medicine and lend-out that knowledge all over the world.
Every last citizen is given a very high minimum standard of education, I found no matter what position a person filled as a job they were well spoken and knowledgeable.
Remember that it all started with the Cuban revolution and American company assets being seized by the new regime.
The embargo was to put pressure on them to release the assets and bend to the will of American capitalism.
To the surprise of everyone, they never yielded to that pressure.
Takes some serious guts or stubbornness.
It is about time the USA and Cuba get to talk more, I honestly think both countries will mutually benefit.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/12/18 20:16:48
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Well.....seems the Mafia might make their way back down there again.....
edit
Though I would not mind getting a hold of a couple of their old school vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 20:17:27
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2014/12/18 21:14:40
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
Very glad to see this happening. Like others here, I recongnize the…
-Ridiculousness of closing off cuba while we openly communicate with China, Iran and Pakistan.
-ineffectuality of the sanctions in forcing any of the changes we'd like to see in Cuba.
Maybe Cuba will change and maybe it won't, but what we're doing isn't working, so let's try something else.
Oh, and the idea that Obama will even be in the running for worst presidents in 50 years is laughable. I don't think he'll be in line for best, but the idea that he'd be among the "worst" is simply not supported by history.
I would, however, be curious to hear what our Canadian and other foreign friends think about who jumps to mind when they think of "worst" American President. Clearly he's not their president, but an outside view is always interesting and there's no denying that US Presidents have had profound impacts around the globe, sometimes changing the conditions other countries far more than they change the conditions at home.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 21:17:03
(Dark Hunters)
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