NOVA Open 2015 (9/3-6/2015) Washington, DC - Pre-Order F.A.T. Mats and Skip Shipping Costs

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**Tomb King**

Hulksmash wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:
Funny no one asked this question when it comes to the BA formation that gives free power weapons and combi weapons to a bunch of VV & SG...

Right, so missing/ignoring one problem prevents us from ever addressing the issue by your implications. Glad your not in a position to make such decisions.

Woah there tiger. Take a breath. I was just pointing out the silliness and inconsistency of people's feelings. Sorry if I hit a nerve

Honestly it's an expensive formation adding in units you wouldn't normally use (shoot, the captain/chaplain is 180pts I wouldn't want to use in general in an HQ) that gives you a bonus for doing so. Have people fix it with missions if they feel it's broken. Overall it's another internet over-reaction in my opinion.

Dont mean to counter your argument but,

the captain can be exchanged for just about any captain in the book. The chaplain can also be rotated out with named hq's. I.E. your last point sucked!

**Hulksmash**

When the only captain worth taking is Khan and the none of the chappies are you can go to heck mr.

I stand by it being a tax when you'd really just want a libby!

@Mike

I'm not claiming it is or isn't broken yet either. I was pointing out the silliness of people suddenly deciding it was for reasons that didn't bother anyone 4 months ago

I think you fix it in the missions but honestly I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just going to build an army that works east coast and ITC and play that for the next year

**winterman**

Iechine wrote:
So, in regards to

"Please note: with this change, the NOVA Open will also follow the rules for the Allied Detachment. Previously, we allowed players to select an Allied Detachment from the same faction as their Primary Detachment. This is no longer the case. If a player chooses an Allied Detachment, it cannot be the same faction as their Primary Detachment."

Am I reading that as the new Auxillary Detachment is the allied detachment, or as any of the combined detachments? That would mean Tyranids can only take one detachment.

This is in reference to the specific 'Allied Detachment' in the rule book (consisting of an HQ, 2 troops, 1 FA, 1 Elite, 1 HS.). Not to any ole detachment. Tyranids can take a CAD, a Leviathan and then a formation. They just can't take a CAD, a Leviathan and then the rule book Allied Detachment.

**Zach**

I dig it, just wanted it for clarity sake, thanks.

**krootman.**

MVBrandt wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:
Funny no one asked this question when it comes to the BA formation that gives free power weapons and combi weapons to a bunch of VV & SG...

Right, so missing/ignoring one problem prevents us from ever addressing the issue by your implications. Glad your not in a position to make such decisions.

Woah there tiger. Take a breath. I was just pointing out the silliness and inconsistency of people's feelings. Sorry if I hit a nerve

Honestly it's an expensive formation adding in units you wouldn't normally use (shoot, the captain/chaplain is 180pts I wouldn't want to use in general in an HQ) that gives you a bonus for doing so. Have people fix it with missions if they feel it's broken. Overall it's another internet over-reaction in my opinion.

If the goal is to create an army that spams enormous quantities of ObSec for far less than the printed points when you average it out, the 180 point example, which is used a lot, is largely invalid. Paying 180 points in order to get hundreds more points worth of stuff you DO want for free is actually not paying a tax at all. It's the equivalent of telling someone that in order to get a free car, they have to pay a tax on the value of the car. If it's a car they want, they're still going to be quite happy to get the car for FAR less than it's worth. Said another way, it would be identical to create a 180 point formation that gave you, say, up to 10 dedicated drop pods for tactical, asm, etc. Paying 180 points for 181-XXXX points of stuff is still giving you stuff for free. You know, it also throws you a captain and a chaplain in, too, so do w/e you want with those guys.

I don't know that the formation is broken; there's a lot of stuff in 40k that's broken. The game is not balanced, in any way of playing it, even remotely. That doesn't mean good mission design and a reasonably bound army construction paradigm cannot create a competitive situation where army list isn't as important. So, please don't translate my objection to the "180 point tax" argument as siding with the belief that the formation as a whole is somehow "worse" than other things in the game (I don't have an opinion yet, because I think anyone loudly claiming it either IS or ISN'T overly broken right now is ... well, internet overreacting, to include potentially you).

This detachment is far fm flawless, you bleed points in nova missions so the games will always be close. Sure I get a bunch of transports, but how much is army wide fnp worth, or how much is daemon summoning worth. As mike said everything is broken anymore, which makes this game as close to balanced as it's ever going to get IMO.

I feel like a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they start spamming razorbacks and then realize how they don't put out enough firepower, and they don't have enough bodies to survive vs other top lists out there.

**MVBrandt**

I think a lot of players who have not familiarized with the NOVA's missions will have a bit of a skewed perspective of what is or isn't powerful, John, as I know you've been familiarizing lately.

Nothing is perfect, but they do have an impact on softening the extreme edges of what's "op."

**krootman.**

MVBrandt wrote:
I think a lot of players who have not familiarized with the NOVA's missions will have a bit of a skewed perspective of what is or isn't powerful, John, as I know you've been familiarizing lately.

Nothing is perfect, but they do have an impact on softening the extreme edges of what's "op."

Speaking of the nova missions, when will the final packet be published?

**MVBrandt**

Yesterday ...

http://www.novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015-40K-GT-Invitational-June-22-Primer.pdf

Don't you keep up with threads, John? :p

**krootman.**

MVBrandt wrote:
Yesterday ...

http://www.novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015-40K-GT-Invitational-June-22-Primer.pdf

Don't you keep up with threads, John? :p

Was too busy debating fluff on bolted and chainsword

**azazel70820**

I checked the packet but may be missing it. Is NOVA allowing "Come the APOC" allies?

**MVBrandt**

Yes - we have seen too many ugly counts-as armies full of battle brothers, and too many gorgeous and super-thematic heavily converted desperate allies, to ban CTA.

**JGrand**

Mike--

Question about conjured units. The packet states:

"Conjured units are not considered part of an explicit Detachment. As a result, benefits from your Warlord
such as Conqueror of Cities and benefits granted by being a part of a given detachment do not apply to
Conjured Units. Furthermore, as a RAW clarification, Conjured Models interact with other models as per
the Allies Matrix, regardless of the Faction that summoned them."

Would models that are CTA allies with Daemons then not be able to summon them, as they are deploying within 12" via deepstrike (pending scatter), and CTA cannot deploy within 12" of one another?

Not trying to be facetious, I'm just curious (and honestly wouldn't mind a stealth nerf to summoning abuse).

**jy2**

JGrand wrote:
Mike--

Question about conjured units. The packet states:

"Conjured units are not considered part of an explicit Detachment. As a result, benefits from your Warlord
such as Conqueror of Cities and benefits granted by being a part of a given detachment do not apply to
Conjured Units. Furthermore, as a RAW clarification, Conjured Models interact with other models as per
the Allies Matrix, regardless of the Faction that summoned them."

Would models that are CTA allies with Daemons then not be able to summon them, as they are deploying within 12" via deepstrike (pending scatter), and CTA cannot deploy within 12" of one another?

Not trying to be facetious, I'm just curious (and honestly wouldn't mind a stealth nerf to summoning abuse).

You cannot deploy them within 12" and yet, you can only summon them within 12"? I'm pretty sure the intent is that you can place summoned daemons within 12" of the summoner. GW's sloppy writing leaves some room for interpretation and when not 100% clear RAW-wise, better to go with the intent, which is pretty clear in this case.

BTW, the actual text reads (on p. 127) "...but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle." The "deploying for battle" could easily be construed as in the Deployment phase, because that is when you actually deploy for battle.

**MVBrandt**

jy2 wrote:
JGrand wrote:
Mike--

Question about conjured units. The packet states:

"Conjured units are not considered part of an explicit Detachment. As a result, benefits from your Warlord
such as Conqueror of Cities and benefits granted by being a part of a given detachment do not apply to
Conjured Units. Furthermore, as a RAW clarification, Conjured Models interact with other models as per
the Allies Matrix, regardless of the Faction that summoned them."

Would models that are CTA allies with Daemons then not be able to summon them, as they are deploying within 12" via deepstrike (pending scatter), and CTA cannot deploy within 12" of one another?

Not trying to be facetious, I'm just curious (and honestly wouldn't mind a stealth nerf to summoning abuse).

You cannot deploy them within 12" and yet, you can only summon them within 12"? I'm pretty sure the intent is that you can place summoned daemons within 12" of the summoner. GW's sloppy writing leaves some room for interpretation and when not 100% clear RAW-wise, better to go with the intent, which is pretty clear in this case.

BTW, the actual text reads (on p. 127) "...but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle." The "deploying for battle" could easily be construed as in the Deployment phase, because that is when you actually deploy for battle.

What jy said, basically.

**Leth**

How does free upgrades count for VPs and other such things?

And following the rules in the packet it is impossible to take a detachment using FW rules if it makes you take two things with the same name?

How are you treating units made of multiple factions for special rules? Do they count as all of the factions at the same time for all purposes?

Further, pending an update do we go with what the chapter tactics say, or what they reference. For example the raptors say "first one is in reference to the rave guard one copied below" now that the rsvenguard one has changed do we use the printed one or the updated one?

Can models see from an access point such as coteaz needing LOS.

**azazel70820**

And one more question, Can you take double CAD?

**MasterSlowPoke**

No duplicate detachments, IIRC.

**Target**

Fairly certain double CAD is allowed from talking with Mike/others locally, and I know we had a NOVA-format RTT locally yesterday and double cad was allowed

**Enigwolf**

3.2.1.2 Lords of War, Super Heavy Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures
You may select a Lord of War where allowed within Detachment construction rules. That said, you may
NOT select a unit with the “Super Heavy” or “Gargantuan” unit types.

Am I right to say that Knights and Wraithknights are no longer allowed at NOVA?

**MVBrandt**

Affirmative

**MVBrandt**

The NOCF's Charity Army raffle is now live. While we draw the winners at the NOVA's awards ceremony, you need not attend NOVA to win - we'll ship anywhere on us.

Over 95% of raffle ticket purchases goes directly to Doctors Without Borders, with the rest merely covering NOCF web costs and the like (entirely volunteer, formal 501c3 charity nonprofit, etc.).

A global consortium of miniature figure artists, led by the incomparable Dave Taylor, worked these two armies up - show some support!

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2015/07/nova-charity-army-raffle-is-live-most.html

**thisisnotpancho**

@MVBrandt

Just curious because I can't seem to find it in either the GT primer nor the NOVAOpen site;

Are painted models required to play in the GT?

**Grimwulfe**

Are painted models required to play in the GT?

Yes most definitely. At least 3 color minimum.

**MVBrandt**

This one is tricky. They are required. We've had a few people show without them and it's impossible as an organizer to be like "screw you, can't play." But taking advantage of that fact is highly discouraged.

**thisisnotpancho**

Unless I'm missing something, those rules for painting are not accessible. And while some people might think that that's obvious, I reccommend you mention that somewhere in the GT primer or website

**MVBrandt**

I think that's an excellent observation; we'll get a note in there about it. Please do note - it is not meant to be an exclusionary rule, but instead to help encourage all players to put in at least the basic minimum of time necessary to spray prime and get a few colors or washes on their miniatures. Many players do not place emphasis on painting, and we believe it's necessary to appreciate the many different ways folks want to enjoy the hobby (as opposed to believing you aren't a "true hobbyist" unless you have a well-painted army).

**zedsdead**

MVBrandt wrote:
I think that's an excellent observation; we'll get a note in there about it. Please do note - it is not meant to be an exclusionary rule, but instead to help encourage all players to put in at least the basic minimum of time necessary to spray prime and get a few colors or washes on their miniatures. Many players do not place emphasis on painting, and we believe it's necessary to appreciate the many different ways folks want to enjoy the hobby (as opposed to believing you aren't a "true hobbyist" unless you have a well-painted army).

I agree with what Mike is saying here... however I feel players spawning models should have them painted to the 3 color minimum. As much as it sucks to have to play against an unpainted army (I have in the past), I understand that sending a guy home because he brought an unpainted army also is a tough call ( I tend to allow them to play). But Spawned models are another story...

**Dozer Blades**

What are spawned ?

**Red Corsair**

Hulksmash wrote:
When the only captain worth taking is Khan and the none of the chappies are you can go to heck mr. I stand by it being a tax when you'd really just want a libby!

@Mike

I'm not claiming it is or isn't broken yet either. I was pointing out the silliness of people suddenly deciding it was for reasons that didn't bother anyone 4 months ago

I think you fix it in the missions but honestly I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just going to build an army that works east coast and ITC and play that for the next year

Which isn't actually silly. Your comment is a simple minded observation that is not even remotely fair. "Suddenly deciding?" really? Where on earth have you been? Because at the current pace of formations, detachments and releases I think your being seriously unfair to people. I consider myself pretty current and I still haven't digested all the releases in the past 6 months. Maybe this just so happened to be the straw or log in this case, that broke the camels back.

Maybe there should never be a shelf life for when stupid things are addressed.

**Valhallan42nd**

I also like to encourage all the gamers attending to explore games outside their usual "go-to" games. We're going to have the largest variety of games that the Nova Open has ever had.

There might be a game there with solid mission design that has near perfect balance, with innovative, scenario driven game play that attracts and intrigues the highest level wargamers, from a company that supports competitive play.

Just sayin'

It might be a thing you look into, if you're so inclined.