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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the Church isn't meant to have an army, is it?

Which is why they have super-hyper-elite forces only. Since they could not have more soldiers, get them the best gear EVAR!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Seeing a return of anti-psyker ammo would be nice. That was the sister's gimmick in the previous codex, iirc.

I do not think Sisters need anti-psyker ammo any more than they need anti-mutant ammo or anti-xenos ammo. Certainly they hate those as much as they hate psykers .

Yeah, except as an army of the Church, their primary role is to fight cases of extreme heresy.
Heretics are usually rogue psykers. Mutants tend to die to bolt rounds and fire like everything else.

Though an army of sternguard equivalents would be interesting. Pricey though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, except as an army of the Church, their primary role is to fight cases of extreme heresy.

Or defend shrine, or capture/protect relics, cardinal worlds…

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Heretics are usually rogue psykers.

Psykers are really rare, and they are usually not linked to organized heresy. Many of the most influential heretics are actually apostates, former Ecclesiarchy members.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Though an army of sternguard equivalents would be interesting. Pricey though.

I have always thought Celestian should receive artificer armor standard, and get all of their weapons master-crafted.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
People complaining that marines are overpriced really, really need to have a look at how much a Sister with -1WS, -1S, -1T, -1I, not ATSKNF, no Chapter tactics, no split squad, no whatever the hell cost.

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
The problem with bolters is not to do with math hammer or fluff or ap values or strength.

The problem is about awesomeness. The vast majority of people who play this game are not number crunchers or min maxers, they play for fun and because genetically engineered super warriors from grim dark land are awesome!

Rolling shooting for bolters it does not feel awesome at all :(, it feels weak when you roll the dice. Rapid fire improves things but not by much. It feels like pissing in the sea.

And this is because the bolter is quite good at mowing down normal infantry, but who fields infantry any more? Now it is all about tanks and monstrous creatures and tanks and…

 Xenomancers wrote:
Its a weapon only a really strong ork nob or a marine could use. (required strength 4) should be in it's profile.

I have a whole army that is making rude gestures towards you now. And incinerating your model collection. And turning you into an arcoflagellant .

You are very wrong about most people that play this game. Most are number crunchers win at all costs kinds of players. On another point, I agree playing genetically engineered super warriors from a dark land is awesome - it's slightly less awesome when your super warriors can't even route a squad of xenos out of cover because they are dead in the time it took to kill 2-3 guardians. There is nothing super about marines. They are overpriced units that have a bunch of moderately better stats that don't mater except bs 4 with a crap weapon and a 3+ save which is made almost completely useless by 4+ cover and the prevalence of mass AP2 and AP3 shooting. This leaves you 3 options for their use and they are all bad. You can put them in a drop pod in which specialist units will perform better. You can put them in a rhino and shove them into someone face for 1 round of rapid fire before being annihilated in 1 turn or ignored by virtue of not being a threat. Or you can run a min squad of 5 with a laz cannon and scrape paint off tanks all day or bounce shots off 3+ invo saves. The bolter being useless is mostly to be blamed here. If bolters were halfway decent for their cost - shoving them at the enemy might actually be worth something. Hiding them in cover might be worth something because they would be worth something later in games with heavy fire reduced through attrition. As it is right now. They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

Mhmm.

Totally.

The absolute worst.

There is not a unit I can even dream of that is worse off than a tactical marine. It must be absolutely terrible to have half a dozen USRs, solid transport options, and the ability to split your squad.

Literally the worst thing in the game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know how marine players carry on. What a burden.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

Mhmm.

Totally.

The absolute worst.

There is not a unit I can even dream of that is worse off than a tactical marine. It must be absolutely terrible to have half a dozen USRs, solid transport options, and the ability to split your squad.

Literally the worst thing in the game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know how marine players carry on. What a burden.

There was a thread closed a few days ago on this very topic. It might be best to avoid it, especially since it is already starting so...poorly, and from the same side.

I think that it can be said bolters were never "good". Str 4 ap 5 doesn't threaten any troops with rapid fire, and most units that carry them are too expensive to use them well.
Sisters at least have had acts of faith to make them rending, and are, oddly enough, the best bolter users in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

As long as vespids exist

you are absolutely wrong.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You are very wrong about most people that play this game. Most are number crunchers win at all costs kinds of players.

Data please.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

Mhmm.

Totally.

The absolute worst.

There is not a unit I can even dream of that is worse off than a tactical marine. It must be absolutely terrible to have half a dozen USRs, solid transport options, and the ability to split your squad.

Literally the worst thing in the game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know how marine players carry on. What a burden.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

Mhmm.

Totally.

The absolute worst.

There is not a unit I can even dream of that is worse off than a tactical marine. It must be absolutely terrible to have half a dozen USRs, solid transport options, and the ability to split your squad.

Literally the worst thing in the game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know how marine players carry on. What a burden.

Not the worst, but frustratingly close, because most of the USRs don't matter.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

Mhmm.

Totally.

The absolute worst.

There is not a unit I can even dream of that is worse off than a tactical marine. It must be absolutely terrible to have half a dozen USRs, solid transport options, and the ability to split your squad.

Literally the worst thing in the game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know how marine players carry on. What a burden.

If by solid transports you mean the weakest...you've got that right. 11/11/10 profile with a storm bolter or a twin linked heavy? Both razors and rhinos are terrible. Compare to a devilish 12/12/10 2 heavies, wave serpent 12/12/10 3 heavies, chimera 12/10/10 2 heavies (it's an abolute joke) ATSKNF is 1 rule - not a dozen I guess by a dozen you meant 2? it hurts you just as often as it helps you - sometimes you just want you squad to get overrun so you can shoot whats killing you. Combat squads is actually useless - it lowers the squads destructive ability by lowering it's heavy weapon count per model.(again a useless rule that helps not on the battlefield. sounds cool though "split squads? sounds strong") Substitute the rule and allow squads to take 2 specials or 2 heavies of your choice and by gosh you'd never see a combat squad. Also a drop pod is not a transport - it's just adds a special deepstrike to the squad and annoys people by blocking LOS and stuff (it is solid though so m maybe you were referring to pods being solid - you can't possibly be referring to marines inferior rhino pattern transports.) Again I was blaming all of tacs short comings on the bolter. None of this would matter (inferior tanks, less special weapons per model whilst being outnumbered, special rules that don't help much and often hurt you) If bolters could actually kill something efficiently. They can't. So we don't use tacs - so theres almost no need for our inferior transports ether. We've moved on to better things. To bad the most elite solider in the imperium are relegated to the dust bin for the most part.

yeahhhhhh bolters still are not as bad as people keep saying it is. nor is armor3. (bolters just dont have the razzle dazzle effect that keeps people placated like all the other races. )

You can also keep forgetting that a rhino costs less than half of a Dfish.

ATSKNF used to be better when you could choose to fail (that was 5th right?) but yeah not aaassss useful but its better than getting sweaped off the board when you lose an assault against an assault unit.

All of that to say that they're THE WORST UNIT TO HAVE EVER BEEN A UNIT!!!!11!!1!!! Right?

I mean, I can't possibly think of a unit that is worse off than a Tac marine. There must be literally zero.

Or maybe you'd like to reframe your argument that Tacs aren't great, rather than caps locking WORST UNIT.

I'm not here for a serious discussion about bolters or tacs, I'm just making fun of people who use ridiculous hyperbole.

Sure, Tacs/bolters need help, but claiming they're the WORST UNIT is comically absurd and does nothing to make any of your arguments seem any stronger.

They might be the worst commonly used unit.

 Blacksails wrote:
All of that to say that they're THE WORST UNIT TO HAVE EVER BEEN A UNIT!!!!11!!1!!! Right?

I mean, I can't possibly think of a unit that is worse off than a Tac marine. There must be literally zero.

Or maybe you'd like to reframe your argument that Tacs aren't great, rather than caps locking WORST UNIT.

I'm not here for a serious discussion about bolters or tacs, I'm just making fun of people who use ridiculous hyperbole.

Sure, Tacs/bolters need help, but claiming they're the WORST UNIT is comically absurd and does nothing to make any of your arguments seem any stronger.

It's not hard to figure how they are the worst. For their cost they deal significantly less damage than other units of comparable price and scope.
Costing more and doing less = the worst. Name me a unit that under performs tacticals for the price please. Explain why they are bad.

Yeah, I'll just leave you alone and let you believe that Tacs are quite literally, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the single absolute worst unit in the game.

Single worse unit? Try IG infantry squad.

i showed you the calculations how much damage they do to MEQs, and for there points will do a feth less wounds than almost anything in return even with orders.

They are literally there to sit on an objective hold or die.

 Blacksails wrote:
Yeah, I'll just leave you alone and let you believe that Tacs are quite literally, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the single absolute worst unit in the game.

Semantics.
You might be able to find a worse troop choice, but can you find a worse troop choice that gets taken commonly?
For some reason, people have a blind spot where tactical marines are concerned, believing them to over perform.

I have agreed to switch out my standard list with tacticals for a game this weekend, and was given a good strategy to employ. We will see how they perform, but numbers wise it doesn't look good. They just don't dish out enough damage for the points, and cover really makes horde troops nearly as survivable (compare an ork in cover to a marine and, point for point, it out performs).

But the discussion is about bolters. There is 1 weapon weaker than bolters, the lasgun.
So yeah.
Pretty bad for a weapon on the most expensive troop in the game.

Desu,
IG get orders which make them superior, cost less and can be put into cover, and get special weapons.
Point for point, I doubt IG are bad. Maybe not Ork good, but they are a pretty good choice.
Rhinos used to be good, I don't see them taken as much. This could be because a lot of armor choices aren't very good in their codexes, so the AT weapons get pointed at them and they die, or because they can be ignored since they and tacticals don't do enough damage. It's hard to tell.

 Desubot wrote:
yeahhhhhh bolters still are not as bad as people keep saying it is. nor is armor3. (bolters just dont have the razzle dazzle effect that keeps people placated like all the other races. )

You can also keep forgetting that a rhino costs less than half of a Dfish.

ATSKNF used to be better when you could choose to fail (that was 5th right?) but yeah not aaassss useful but its better than getting sweaped off the board when you lose an assault against an assault unit.

Rhino can't jink - has smoke for 1 turn of jink(no upgrades to improve it). Can't move 12 and shoot normally - has approx 1/3th the firepower - and has less armor. Oh but on a 6 it can repair a hull point so it can continue being useless (can't forget to leave out rules that almost never help you.)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
yeahhhhhh bolters still are not as bad as people keep saying it is. nor is armor3. (bolters just dont have the razzle dazzle effect that keeps people placated like all the other races. )

You can also keep forgetting that a rhino costs less than half of a Dfish.

ATSKNF used to be better when you could choose to fail (that was 5th right?) but yeah not aaassss useful but its better than getting sweaped off the board when you lose an assault against an assault unit.

Rhino can't jink - has smoke for 1 turn of jink(no upgrades to improve it). Can't move 12 and shoot normally - has approx 1/3th the firepower - and has less armor. Oh but on a 6 it can repair a hull point so it can continue being useless (can't forget to leave out rules that almost never help you.)

cover still exists and not everything is tau or wave serpents.
Rhinos come with storm bolters. its not going to kill all the time but its a cherry on top for a cheap fethin vehicle that lets you move up 18" T1 which is incredibly important for marines.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
yeahhhhhh bolters still are not as bad as people keep saying it is. nor is armor3. (bolters just dont have the razzle dazzle effect that keeps people placated like all the other races. )

You can also keep forgetting that a rhino costs less than half of a Dfish.

ATSKNF used to be better when you could choose to fail (that was 5th right?) but yeah not aaassss useful but its better than getting sweaped off the board when you lose an assault against an assault unit.

Rhino can't jink - has smoke for 1 turn of jink(no upgrades to improve it). Can't move 12 and shoot normally - has approx 1/3th the firepower - and has less armor. Oh but on a 6 it can repair a hull point so it can continue being useless (can't forget to leave out rules that almost never help you.)

cover still exists and not everything is tau or wave serpents.

Chimeras have better offensive output
De transports are better
Daemons don't have them
Necron transports are absurd and should not be spoken of

You could argue truks are worse though.

Chimeras also cost a bit more for that offensive power.
I love toasting DE transports with Drop ironclads with double HF people forget the noescape rule lol.
Necrons.....yeah tis silly.
But yeah i think you are right the worst could possibility be orks.

Ogyrns. For 43 point what do you get? A WS:4 T:5 model with a 5+ armor save and 12" S: 5 AP- gun. Sure, they have three wounds but a single demolisher blast can wipe them out. Hell, massed bolter fire can wipe them out.

 Xenomancers wrote:
s it is right now. They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

You are delusional. Try Celestians.

Did you notice I play an army where pretty much all my troops have the same wargear, a largely inferior profile and less interesting special rules for almost the same cost as marines?

Delusional marine player frustrated that his army is not the best on every regard is delusional.

 Desubot wrote:
Single worse unit? Try IG infantry squad.

i showed you the calculations how much damage they do to MEQs, and for there points will do a feth less wounds than almost anything in return even with orders.

They are literally there to sit on an objective hold or die.

Never turns out that way on the game table. IG squads job is to sit in cover and shoot heavy guns. Give a 10 man a laz and plasma and they will kill or cripple a marine squad before it gets in range to rapid fire - even then they will just go to ground in cover and the exposed marine squad gets pie plated and annihilated by the other half of the marines points in another 10 man with a laz and a plasma - not needing to be the aggressor is a huge part of why IG platoons are superior to tacs.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Ogyrns. For 43 point what do you get? A WS:4 T:5 model with a 5+ armor save and 12" S: 5 AP- gun. Sure, they have three wounds but a single demolisher blast can wipe them out. Hell, massed bolter fire can wipe them out.

Actually, I saw a deathstar Ogryn unit with Azrael attached that did surprisingly well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Single worse unit? Try IG infantry squad.

i showed you the calculations how much damage they do to MEQs, and for there points will do a feth less wounds than almost anything in return even with orders.

They are literally there to sit on an objective hold or die.

Never turns out that way on the game table. IG squads job is to sit in cover and shoot heavy guns. Give a 10 man a laz and plasma and they will kill or cripple a marine squad before it gets in range to rapid fire - even then they will just go to ground in cover and the exposed marine squad gets pie plated and annihilated by the other half of the marines points in another 10 man with a laz and a plasma - not needing to be the aggressor is a huge part of why IG platoons are superior to tacs.

They have a 50% chance to miss off the bat, they will kill possibly 1 marine with a plasma or a lascannon. unless you are somehow running 2man marine squads they are not getting crippled.

and even then a 4man will more than likely sweap guardsman in the following charge.

And sure an entire 300+ platoon and more in support would look amazaballs compared to a lowly minimum 70 point tactical squad anytime.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
s it is right now. They are with out a doubt in my mind - THE WORST UNIT that can be fielded on a 40 k tabletop.

You are delusional. Try Celestians.

Did you notice I play an army where pretty much all my troops have the same wargear, a largely inferior profile and less interesting special rules for almost the same cost as marines?

Delusional marine player frustrated that his army is not the best on every regard is delusional.

It's generally agreed that sisters are better than tacs. So you really aren't coming from a strong position here. Cost less have same gun with better special rules and better transports. I'll be honest I don't know a lot about sisters in this edition. In previous editions the whole army could have a laz cannon for 1 turn or some other shenanigans. 6++ is another thing while costing less? lol.

Oh, so what you're saying is that running a unit up to a heavily armed squad in cover will get the assaulting unit killed? Do tell.

And to elaborate on my point as to why Marines aren't the worst unit for cost Ogryns only cost 2 pts less than a Hammernator. Hammernators have a 3+ invuln, a 2+ save, pretty much the same WS, higher leadership, better strength and a better AP. The only thing Ogryns have over Hammernators is 2 more wounds, one more attack and a +1 WS/S/T. Which do not amount to much since they have crappy saves and a one point difference in weapon skill isn't much most of the time.

The extra wounds are huge. But we are really diverging from the point here.

Yeah, I guess we are. Back on topic....

Bolters are kind of lame. They've always been kind of lame. S:4 is weaksauce against most targets and AP:5 is often meaningless. I'd make them Assault 3 and shred if you don't want to diddle around with the S/AP.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Oh, so what you're saying is that running a unit up to a heavily armed squad in cover will get the assaulting unit killed? Do tell.

And to elaborate on my point as to why Marines aren't the worst unit for cost Ogryns only cost 2 pts less than a Hammernator. Hammernators have a 3+ invuln, a 2+ save, pretty much the same WS, higher leadership, better strength and a better AP. The only thing Ogryns have over Hammernators is 2 more wounds, one more attack and a +1 WS/S/T. Which do not amount to much since they have crappy saves and a one point difference in weapon skill isn't much most of the time.

Orgyns have 3 wounds and strong guns. I'd take them over a tac squad all day. Put Orgyns up against a tac squad and see what happens. Marines lose - thats what happens.