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Well, the faction isn't cheesy, but it's possible to make a cheesy Tau army. So I'm not sure how to answer the Poll

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, close combat does involve more than gunlining, as you need to actually use the movement phase and make much more use of terrain other than just camping in it. Plus, most choppy armies also usually rely on shooty elements for their assaults to work correctly. It's been three years now since I've seen a green tide, and six since I've seen nidzilla.

Point-and-charge armies, I'd agree, are hardly the apogee of 40k strategy, but they're still better in this regard, and they're still less cheesy for your opponent to play against, as the game doesn't devolve to picking up all your models without doing much with them because they never made it into assault or close-range (or medium range, for that matter). Anybody can play their strategy against an assault army, while little else than other gunlines can do much more than gunline against a gunline.

In any case, the existence of point-and-charge armies doesn't make tau's point-and-click any less cheesy. And that's before we remember that point-and-charge armies are phantoms that scarcely exist anymore while finding a tau gunline is only about as difficult as finding a tau player.

It is a fair point, although I have far too many bad memories of playing against Tyrandis in 4th edition where the opponent used about 5 units of outflanking genestealers for it to set well with me. You either deploy in the middle 3 ft of the table (where the Doom of Malan`tai comes down on top of you) or use your entire deployment zone and get eaten by genestealers since interceptor and over-watch weren't things back then. Tau are the recipients of having a well designed (not overpowered) codex for an army that is completely shooting centric in an edition where shooting is largely dominant (not sure whether to call that a blessing or a curse).

Plus I honestly think that if you are not using the movement phase you aren't playing Tau properly. Crisis suits finding good positions and Devilfish playing spacing games to get their payload into rapid fire range but out of charge range are pretty basic skills as far as I'm concerned.

Riptides and their variants are cheesy. The rest of the army is not.

Farsight bomb with 3 rip tides is pretty cheesy. Unfortunately that's the only kind of tau build I ever really see. They fold to assault but when they can move, kill half your unit with a round of shooting and then jump back out of charge range every turn assault isn't a real viable option. Also they can overwatch for each other. Drop pods are a good way to get in close to them quickly, but when everything has intercept they can blow your pod and take out some of the squad before you even land. Then, since you can't assault the turn the pod lands, you have to hope your 3/4 strength squad can survive a full round of their shooting so it can assault and actually do some damage. You can go flyer spam, but almost everything has access to sky fire so they're still hitting your flyers at normal BS. The only way to beat a strong tau list is to have a stronger or more mobile gunline.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I didn't ever think they were. There were cheesy builds, but that's true in most armies.

This. This is your answer. People hate playing 3 riptides and as a tau player myself, I'd say that's a pretty unfun way to play. But people would also hate multiple dreadknights, or imperial knights, or flyer spam, or psyker spam. Tau can be cheesy, but only if you specifically build your list to be fairly boring. Tau can also be very mobile and absolutely destroy an enemy that way.

Tau are thought of as being too cheesy, but actually aren't.

13045273 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I didn't ever think they were. There were cheesy builds, but that's true in most armies.

This. This is your answer. People hate playing 3 riptides and as a tau player myself, I'd say that's a pretty unfun way to play. But people would also hate multiple dreadknights, or imperial knights, or flyer spam, or psyker spam. Tau can be cheesy, but only if you specifically build your list to be fairly boring. Tau can also be very mobile and absolutely destroy an enemy that way.

Tau are thought of as being too cheesy, but actually aren't.

Quite. I also think it's a problem of people thinking that tau can only be played as static gunline.. Tau are actually quite maneuverable, especially if you being crisis as troops ala FE. Piranhas are fast and cheap, devilfish (despite being hideously overpriced) transport firewarriors and patfinder quite quickly, suits other than broadsides can reach pretty rediuclous speeds when you look at move+run+jump, same more drones, If you want ot being in FW hazards are the same as other suits, and the barracuda is a fast, strong, and most importantly, well priced, flyer.

dementedwombat wrote:It is a fair point, although I have far too many bad memories of playing against Tyrandis in 4th edition where the opponent used about 5 units of outflanking genestealers for it to set well with me. You either deploy in the middle 3 ft of the table (where the Doom of Malan`tai comes down on top of you) or use your entire deployment zone and get eaten by genestealers since interceptor and over-watch weren't things back then.

Right, and I would be first in line to say the old gene-stealer spam was cheesy. Thought I'd say old nid-zilla was worse. It may not sound like much anymore to say an army could field 8 MCs, but back in 4th edition, where the heavy bolter was good, that was more than a little terrifying, especially since the old TMCs were the only MCs who could fly.

dementedwombat wrote:Plus I honestly think that if you are not using the movement phase you aren't playing Tau properly.

I'd also be first in line for this as well, but...

dementedwombat wrote:Tau are the recipients of having a well designed (not overpowered) codex for an army that is completely shooting centric in an edition where shooting is largely dominant (not sure whether to call that a blessing or a curse).

Well, it's different than that, though. I don't think that "cheesy" should be confused with "overpowered". Guard, DA, and DE are all shooty-centric in a shooty edition, but I don't know if I'd consider any of them (generally) cheesy.

Thud wrote:What does cheesy mean? Too good?

It doesn't.

Power levels come and go over time. To say that "strong" is cheesy, though, implies that the only purpose of a game of 40k is to win it, which it isn't.

Instead, there's a lot to say about HOW one wins, and that's where cheesiness comes in. When my opponent wins, and he wins in such a way where I don't really get to play the game because all of my stuff has been killed before it has any chance to do anything (so I don't really get to play a game while playing the game), that's cheesy. When my opponent wins without having to make much by means of tactical decisions, but instead wins by just rolling dice with higher numbers than me, that's cheesy. When my opponent just sort of ignores the rules and so can play the same way every time regardless of whoever they're facing, it's at least a little cheesy.

And that's the problem with tau. Most people show up with mostly the same list and "play" it in mostly the same way (which is yahtzee with miniatures), with mostly the same result. Why bother playing against it at all?.

And that's the difference between strong and cheesy. BA back when their old codex came out was a CC army that was cheesy, because they just ignored all the rules and you went from lining up all your models to having them all immediately killed in assault, while the green tide was a CC army that wasn't, because at least you got to kill a hundred orks before they murdered you.

It's the same problem with tau. With tau, you get your choice of facing yet another gunline that just ignores rules and is just better than you and you just have to remove models while you're stuck "dealing" with "rules", or else you're up against an MSM army which isn't much better. If they really wanted tau to be an elite army, they should have made it a proper elite army like GK or deathwing. Instead, they have a codex that's more like guard, except with all the rules broken and all of the challenge stripped out. They just roll dice, and their opponents are stuck trying to do anything against a denial army.

Which is a shame because (especially in the fluff department) there is a lot of well-rounded potential that is simply squandered.

I think my only real gripe with Tau is the whole "Jump, shoot, jump". I find that to be one of THE most obnoxious rules in the entirety of the game. It totally negates the entire commitment of moving into position, then firing. It takes ALL thought and risk out of their play. They have NO concern if their shots failed, because they can simply haul ass 2D6 inches in whatever the hell direction they want to go afterwards.

I may be biased due to loving to play an assaulty Ork army, but it's seriously a pain in the ass rule that's a huge slap in the face in the 2 most recent editions that seem focused, almost strictly, on shooting.

My brother in law plays Tau, and is a big fan of his jumpack units. And it infuriates me that every game I play, I virtually cannot touch any of them. I spend ALL GAME playing chicken. The only time I can actually win against him is if we play Maelstrom. Then at that point it's often time boring as sin, because I just run around and grab objectives and do very little actual fighting. It does force him to DO something OTHER than hit and run douchery, but I tend to do very little damage regardless.

Are they cheesy? No.

Are Tau one of the least interesting/most annoying armies in the entire game to fight? In my opinion, yes. Yes they are.

I never encounter Tau players that use gun lines or Farsight bomb in 7th. That's just internet tripe as most Tau builds aren't like that.

Most of Tau's hate is because everyone assumes that Tau players are mind readers so they can tell if you'll be using fliers (so will give everything sky fire), will know if you're deepstriking everything (so will use interceptor), will know if you're a horde (so will take HBC Riptides) and know if you're choppy (so will gun line).

Most Tau players, like other players, take all-comers lists and take 1 or 2 (or 0) Riptide squads (see my old thread for the figures).

What I find pathetic is how no one sees GK or SM as cheesy, yet Tau are. GK have the Dreadknight which is just as cheesy as a Riptide. SM have perfect internal balance, just like Tau, but they have chapter tactics and other cheesy stuff, but no one cares about that.

IoM ally armies are the most cheesy, yet no one sees it.

 Ailaros wrote:

Thud wrote:What does cheesy mean? Too good?

It doesn't.

Power levels come and go over time. To say that "strong" is cheesy, though, implies that the only purpose of a game of 40k is to win it, which it isn't.

Instead, there's a lot to say about HOW one wins, and that's where cheesiness comes in. When my opponent wins, and he wins in such a way where I don't really get to play the game because all of my stuff has been killed before it has any chance to do anything (so I don't really get to play a game while playing the game), that's cheesy. When my opponent wins without having to make much by means of tactical decisions, but instead wins by just rolling dice with higher numbers than me, that's cheesy. When my opponent just sort of ignores the rules and so can play the same way every time regardless of whoever they're facing, it's at least a little cheesy.

And that's the problem with tau. Most people show up with mostly the same list and "play" it in mostly the same way (which is yahtzee with miniatures), with mostly the same result. Why bother playing against it at all?.

And that's the difference between strong and cheesy. BA back when their old codex came out was a CC army that was cheesy, because they just ignored all the rules and you went from lining up all your models to having them all immediately killed in assault, while the green tide was a CC army that wasn't, because at least you got to kill a hundred orks before they murdered you.

It's the same problem with tau. With tau, you get your choice of facing yet another gunline that just ignores rules and is just better than you and you just have to remove models while you're stuck "dealing" with "rules", or else you're up against an MSM army which isn't much better. If they really wanted tau to be an elite army, they should have made it a proper elite army like GK or deathwing. Instead, they have a codex that's more like guard, except with all the rules broken and all of the challenge stripped out. They just roll dice, and their opponents are stuck trying to do anything against a denial army.

Which is a shame because (especially in the fluff department) there is a lot of well-rounded potential that is simply squandered.

This.

Melevolence wrote:
I think my only real gripe with Tau is the whole "Jump, shoot, jump". I find that to be one of THE most obnoxious rules in the entirety of the game. It totally negates the entire commitment of moving into position, then firing. It takes ALL thought and risk out of their play. They have NO concern if their shots failed, because they can simply haul ass 2D6 inches in whatever the hell direction they want to go afterwards.

Agreed.

Might I add that only Tau Elites, 1 HQ and 1 FA can JSJ... And it's hardly a Tau specific thing.

SGTPozy wrote:
Might I add that only Tau Elites, 1 HQ and 1 FA can JSJ... And it's hardly a Tau specific thing.

Oh good, just Crisis Suits and the Riptide, fantastic.

Also, I'm pretty sure their HQs can do so too.

And Drones, for that matter.


When you say it's not a Tau specific thing, which other armies can do it?

The only ones I can think of are Eldar Warp Spiders, which (IIRC) can die when they use this ability and also have very short-range weapons.

There's three Tau players in my area.

One plays a mobile list of fish with warriors, crisis suits and broadsides. He'll throw in the rip tide now and then. He's actually fun but hard to play. Frustrating at times. Unless I know I'm playing him for sure I find my orks chasing him around the board.

Another plays a lot of missile-sides, pathfinders and an odd assortment with rip tide. Not terrible to play against. Playing maelstrom or other scenerios forces him to move around and play a fun game.

Third guy is a PITA. Gun line every time. If you j ow you're up against him, you can pretty much bet your money on what exactly he's going to bring. I once asked if his Tau were in wheel chairs because he would literally just slide his troops a'little' to the left or right to change some angles now and then. This was made worse by often ignorance of rules. He debated with me once at s local tourney about how my ramshackle rule was "FAQ'd" out in 6th edition, when it wasn't. He was winning, but he refused to believe that my trukk could possibly do anything but evaporate user his withering gaze.

He was at first hard to play against because it was hard to find what worked just right against his army. But now, easy to play against and he hasn't won a game in awhile. And it's not that he can't buy new models, it's just his staunch refusal to.

My meta is pretty friendly, not super comp unless we're running a local tourney. When built with balance and for fun, I find tau an interesting and difficult to play. When built for competiton though, it can be nasty and cheesecake

1 non-named HQ will be more accurate.
Drones are the 1 FA unit that can jump. yes, they are FA-a high demand slot for tau.

As for what other armies can-both eldar flavors have JSJ units in the form of eldar jetbikes, and the spiders risk losing a member only when they choose to make an extra jump (so they move 6+2d6 in movement and another 2d6 in assault)
If you look into 30k than Admech does too.

Not that it matters, even if it WAS a unique ability-its not a bad thing by default. if armies were all the same there was no reason to have multiple armies. and many armies got things that tau does not in return. even simple things that half the armies sees as obvoius like LD nullifies mechanics are hard to come by for the tau player.

Well named characters are just generic characters with more rules... So I was right

Tau can JSJ... Wow, SM and half of the other armies have ATSKNF, so cannot be over-ran and stuff. That's rather annoying. So is chapter tactics; re-rolling all to hits if 1s with bolt weapons? Wow, that's great. Auto passing dangerous terrain tests and having +1 to jink saves? Tau and Eldar have to pay 15 points for that.

What could you really replace JSJ with, though, without making battlesuits crap (the non-riptide ones anyway)? I don't feel they're survivable enough, and they have good firepower but I'd go as far as saying it's not so good as to risk putting them out in the open, like you would have to if they were regular jump infantry instead. You'll probably get one shooting phase with them before the squad gets focused and wiped out, or runs off the board after taking a casualty. They'd play more like a suicide unit and that's not really how they're "supposed" to work, and they're too expensive for that too, in my opinion.

I dunno, personally I thought making the assault move random was good enough to balance it, but apparently everyone still thinks they're "cheese" or "unfair". But I feel like getting rid of the assault move entirely is too much of a nerf.

JSJ is really good, but only when the suits don't have to stand on an objective. My games against my mate's Tau generally end with the suits being all he has left - his infantry is soft and wiping out a few vehicles isn't too hard when you have AT guns in every squad, some of them Outflanking. At this point he has to risk the suits in the open if he wants to win.

 Sidstyler wrote:
What could you really replace JSJ with, though, without making battlesuits crap (the non-riptide ones anyway)?

Well, honestly, I don't think Riptides should have that kind of mobility at all.

With regard to normal battlesuits, some possibilities:

- Make them normal Jump Troops with Relentless.

- Let them move in the assault phase, but only if they remained stationary during their movement phase. So, they can move in the movement phase, or the assault phase - but not both.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I don't feel they're survivable enough, and they have good firepower but I'd go as far as saying it's not so good as to risk putting them out in the open, like you would have to if they were regular jump infantry instead.

But that's the thing - do you go out into the open to get into range or use your weapons to better effect, or do you stay in cover and reduce your firepower as a result? Every other army has to make choices like this, why should Tau get a free pass on having to make hard decisions?

With regard to survivability, they don't seem unreasonable tbh. Their survivability is about on par with 2 marines, but their cost is 1.5x that of a marine (which makes up for being more vulnerable to S8+).

 Sidstyler wrote:
They'd play more like a suicide unit and that's not really how they're "supposed" to work, and they're too expensive for that too, in my opinion.

Well, are they any worse than DE scourges - which are 16 ppm for T3 with a 4+ save? They certainly don't get any movement shenanigans to help them survive.

If survivability is the problem, that can be corrected for. MSM is a terrible rule, though, and should be gotten rid of entirely, not just for tau.

On your turn, you get to have units that ignore terrain in the movement phase, shoot at your stuff, and then retreat back out of LOS. In return, I can't shoot back. This is strategic masturbation at its worst, where you're doing a bunch of quick movements and having fun while I'm sitting on the other side of the table with nothing to do but watch.

Once again, it's about playing against a denial unit on the one hand, and on the other hand, there's less skill involved because you don't need to think about how terrain effects movement or survivability once you're exposed.

If you want to fix crisis suits, what's wrong with making them like terminators? They get Sv2+ and multiple wounds and two guns apiece and deepstrike and jump packs, and in return they lose the powerfist and the ++ (which you could still, say, reintroduce with drones if you gave up one of the two weapons for it).

That way you'd have something that's different, but still fits within the existing framework and forces the tau player to actually make some decisions.

Your talking about something that has been a core suit mechanic since their first incarnation. It's like suddenly taking away the russ's battle cannon, or ork's CC ability. If they are really that hard to get rid of, then make them more expensive, compensate in some way. The first reaction should not be to remove mechanics, but compensate for them. The longest range you can get on crisis suits is 36", with the rest of their weapons being 24" or 18". You shouldn't really have to worry about stealth suits (36", and extremely overpriced), and drones are limited to 18". It may be an annoying mechanic, but that is no real reason to get rid of it.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Your talking about something that has been a core suit mechanic since their first incarnation. It's like suddenly taking away the russ's battle cannon, or ork's CC ability. If they are really that hard to get rid of, then make them more expensive, compensate in some way. The first reaction should not be to remove mechanics, but compensate for them. The longest range you can get on crisis suits is 36", with the rest of their weapons being 24" or 18". You shouldn't really have to worry about stealth suits (36", and extremely overpriced), and drones are limited to 18". It may be an annoying mechanic, but that is no real reason to get rid of it.

I'm not sure if I'm down for removing it entirely, but it needs to be fixed in some way is what I'm getting at. I get that it's a 'Tau' thing, but just because it makes them a special snowflake, doesn't mean it isn't a total horse gak rule. I'd even say the same for ATSKNF. It still bugs me to this day that a squad of five Marines for example, can't be swept by a hoard of 30 Orks. Seriously? No, you're fething DEAD. Even if you turn back around to 'stand your ground', if you didn't beat them the first time and you RAN, you deserve to be cut down. Stupid Marine plot armor bull crap. >:I

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Your talking about something that has been a core suit mechanic since their first incarnation.

And?

This is not a good reason for keeping a poor mechanic.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's like suddenly taking away the russ's battle cannon

Considering how crap it is this edition, I'm not sure that would be much of a loss.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
or ork's CC ability.

No, it's really not.

Melevolence wrote:
I get that it's a 'Tau' thing, but just because it makes them a special snowflake, doesn't mean it isn't a total horse gak rule. I'd even say the same for ATSKNF. It still bugs me to this day that a squad of five Marines for example, can't be swept by a hoard of 30 Orks. Seriously? No, you're fething DEAD. Even if you turn back around to 'stand your ground', if you didn't beat them the first time and you RAN, you deserve to be cut down. Stupid Marine plot armor bull crap. >:I

With regard to ATSKNF, I think what annoys me more is that 'knowing no fear' somehow has a different effect to 'fearless'. Knowing no fear is the definition of fearless.

If I see a riptide go down in a 1000 point game , I'm going to assume that this person's tactics are cheesier than the snack that smiles back.

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Your talking about something that has been a core suit mechanic since their first incarnation.

And?

This is not a good reason for keeping a poor mechanic.
And that's the thing, it's not really a poor mechanic. It's like how it is because it works. Just because it's annoying does not make it bad

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's like suddenly taking away the russ's battle cannon

Considering how crap it is this edition, I'm not sure that would be much of a loss.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
or ork's CC ability.

No, it's really not.

It really is. It's entirely changing how a number of units work.

If you don't like the mechanic, that's one thing. I don't like the psychic phase, doesn't mean it's a bad mechanic. What this is is completely redoing how a unit works. If you want to do a comlete re-do, fine, but it should be a complete one.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

And that's the thing, it's not really a poor mechanic. It's like how it is because it works. Just because it's annoying does not make it bad

No, the fact that it lets a unit shoot without retaliation makes it a bad mechanic.

MSM is a bad mechanic.

You can dispel enemy psychic dice. You can overwatch charging enemies. You can deep strike, but can't move or assault.

What's the logic behind MSM.

"Sir they moved out, they're shooting at us."

"Shoot back soldier."

"We can't sir, they moved back in."

"Damn them!"

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

And that's the thing, it's not really a poor mechanic. It's like how it is because it works. Just because it's annoying does not make it bad

No, the fact that it lets a unit shoot without retaliation makes it a bad mechanic.

So? That's the same with indirect fire. Not only do the tau only have one indirect fire weapon (and that only has a range of 18", and is a signature system). Keep in mind, this is a unit with a BS of 3, so it misses half the time, are udderly destroyed by anything battlecannon or better, can has no real long range weaponry. Not only that, they are priced high enough to offset problems. Think of it this way, it's just like how having a longer ranged weapon stops retaliation. Yet again, just because it is annoying does not make it bad.

vipoid wrote:

Co'tor Shas wrote:
And that's the thing, it's not really a poor mechanic. It's like how it is because it works. Just because it's annoying does not make it bad

No, the fact that it lets a unit shoot without retaliation makes it a bad mechanic.

Exactly. There are other rules I find annoying that I don't think should be removed, and some things that have been removed that I liked, but still think should have been removed. It's about game design, not mere personal preference.

And, I'd note, core mechanics change all the time. I remember when death company was random and you hoped and prayed that you didn't roll any, instead of being one of the best units in the codex that you could just take. I remember when demon summoning worked completely differently. And I remember when it worked completely different before that. I watched Leman russes go from tanks to lumbering behemoth to heavy, each change seriously effecting how you kit them.

Core rules change all the time. Rules are like milk, just because they're old doesn't mean they're still good.

As already explained, but not refuted.

Co'tor Shas wrote:So? That's the same with indirect fire.

Which is also a bad mechanic.

At least most things with barrage come on static, flimsy units. Rather than strong, tough, fast, terrain-ignoring, deepstriking units. Also, most IF units are very vulnerable to deepstriking and outflanking, unlike crisis suits which come in an army that gets interceptors on key units for effectively free.

What you're talking about is something that's worse than a bad mechanic. That doesn't make them good.

 TheSilo wrote:
MSM is a bad mechanic.

You can dispel enemy psychic dice. You can overwatch charging enemies. You can deep strike, but can't move or assault.

What's the logic behind MSM.

"Sir they moved out, they're shooting at us."

"Shoot back soldier."

"We can't sir, they moved back in."

"Damn them!"

I would argue that there isn't much logic behind the 40k turn system in the first place.

"Sir, they moved out, they're shooting at us."

"Shoot back soldier."

"We can't, sir, it's not our turn yet."

"Damn it!"

SGTPozy wrote:
I never encounter Tau players that use gun lines or Farsight bomb in 7th. That's just internet tripe as most Tau builds aren't like that.

Most of Tau's hate is because everyone assumes that Tau players are mind readers so they can tell if you'll be using fliers (so will give everything sky fire), will know if you're deepstriking everything (so will use interceptor), will know if you're a horde (so will take HBC Riptides) and know if you're choppy (so will gun line).

Most Tau players, like other players, take all-comers lists and take 1 or 2 (or 0) Riptide squads (see my old thread for the figures).


What I find pathetic is how no one sees GK or SM as cheesy, yet Tau are. GK have the Dreadknight which is just as cheesy as a Riptide. SM have perfect internal balance, just like Tau, but they have chapter tactics and other cheesy stuff, but no one cares about that.

IoM ally armies are the most cheesy, yet no one sees it.

I'm a dark angels and world eaters play and I still think that's well said buddy, my world eaters contemptor with dual grav guns is the bane of my mate's and they think it's cheesy while they run 3 sometimes 4 land raiders, it's swings and roundabouts