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Yeah, Donte is a LoW but why wouldn't they let us get a generic Chapter Master that we could field with our BA successor chapter.

Also, is the lack of a captain on a bike making bikers troops a possible sign that the next SM codex will not allow bikes as troops?

There is two chapter masters in the book. No generic ones but such is life. Doesn't really make any difference

Does seem strange, they could have just added that you can't take Dante or Seth in the same army as a generic Chapter Master, to stop people spamming them if that is the issue.

Where was it 2 years ago in the DA dex? And, yes most likely it does mean SM will lose that ability which they shouldn't have had in the first place.

 Hubris wrote:
Does seem strange, they could have just added that you can't take Dante or Seth in the same army as a generic Chapter Master, to stop people spamming them if that is the issue.

In the grey knight codex, they put brother captain and grand master under the same page. I would have thought they'd do this with a Chapter Master

Because Dante is the chapter master.

Martel732 wrote:
Because Dante is the chapter master.

Of the Angels Sanguine? Truth be told, after the Shield of Baal incident, they could probably combine all the successors together and likely not have enough men to reach 1000.

In all honesty, the Chapter Master is just a Captain with an extra wound and a few other stat boosts. It was the Captain equivalent to a Reclusiarch and look what happened the the Super Chaplains. I think the Reclusiarch and Chapter Master should be upgrades for the Chaplain and Captain with a limitation of one per army.

Ah, I forgot about the other successor chapters. I guess they kinda got hosed, didn't they?

Martel732 wrote:
Ah, I forgot about the other successor chapters. I guess they kinda got hosed, didn't they?

Yup. Though I think all of the Chapter Masters should be Lords of War. A Dataslate that let's you make a custom Chapter Master would be kinda cool.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Yeah, Donte is a LoW but why wouldn't they let us get a generic Chapter Master that we could field with our BA successor chapter.

Also, is the lack of a captain on a bike making bikers troops a possible sign that the next SM codex will not allow bikes as troops?

because no army electing to use chapter tactics of a space marine army should be able to buy said flat chapter master and field it alongside another chapter master for that chapter. i hope double chapter masters dies in a fire. 1 chapter master per detachment (and you forfeit this pick if you field a named character from this list (and then list all the named chapter masters including hellbrecht, marneus, dante, azreal, ko'sarro, vulcan he'stan, etc.)) and that will fix it right proper; you have a problem with it i suggest you deal. and im going to bet all the things that this will be what happens in the next space marine codex.

making bikers troops not being present should be no suprise. 7th edition has made, at least in GW's eyes, those things unnesscary, as if you want a blood angels bike army, just take it and don't bother with a FOC.

My concern is that come with he next SM codex, my white scars army will be destroyed. Much like my ork army was and my CSM army. Well, my plague marine army wasn't really trashed, just my heldrake was nerfed to the ground

Don't worry, you'll probably get your White Scars back...but you'll have to pay an additional $75 for a campaign book with the appropriate formations giving you permission to take lots of bikes. Which will sell out in an hour and then only be available in an inferior softcover format for a measly $9 less.

GW has rarely included a generic Chapter Master option for the various 'named' Chapters.

It's only an option for Ultramarines because their book gets used as the generic Marine book as well.

 insaniak wrote:
GW has rarely included a generic Chapter Master option for the various 'named' Chapters.

It's only an option for Ultramarines because their book gets used as the generic Marine book as well.

There's an arguement to be made to not giving Dark Angels the option as their successors follow the orders of the Supreme Grand Master more akin to an old Legion than actual distinct chapters. Fluffwise, it's less important.

This is, however, patently untrue for the Blood Angels, and in both cases, there'll still be super-veteran Marines in charge of running the show.

Mechanically though, the Chapter Master is a bit if a problem in C:SM: who ever bothers with captains for anything other than fluff reasons? The stat boosts largely justify the expensive, especially if you want to give said character powerful melee weapons, and the additional Orbital Bombardment also goes a long way to making up the points differential. The same thing happens in the Dark Angel book; unless you're strapped for points, if you want to bring a Chaplain, why bother with the regular when the Interrogator is simply better in all regards.

If a flatly superior option exists to the same unit in the same FOC slot which quite often will also give the enemy a VP if they die, why bother with the budget options? Especially with Space marines as their upgrades and relics are so expensive, the base price you pay for the model is almost inconsequential.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
GW has rarely included a generic Chapter Master option for the various 'named' Chapters.

It's only an option for Ultramarines because their book gets used as the generic Marine book as well.

There's an arguement to be made to not giving Dark Angels the option as their successors follow the orders of the Supreme Grand Master more akin to an old Legion than actual distinct chapters. Fluffwise, it's less important.

This is, however, patently untrue for the Blood Angels, and in both cases, there'll still be super-veteran Marines in charge of running the show.

Mechanically though, the Chapter Master is a bit if a problem in C:SM: who ever bothers with captains for anything other than fluff reasons? The stat boosts largely justify the expensive, especially if you want to give said character powerful melee weapons, and the additional Orbital Bombardment also goes a long way to making up the points differential. The same thing happens in the Dark Angel book; unless you're strapped for points, if you want to bring a Chaplain, why bother with the regular when the Interrogator is simply better in all regards.

If a flatly superior option exists to the same unit in the same FOC slot which quite often will also give the enemy a VP if they die, why bother with the budget options? Especially with Space marines as their upgrades and relics are so expensive, the base price you pay for the model is almost inconsequential.

Plus, in the recent stuff the Dark Angels stand accused of Legion building which apparently is a big no-no. Though I think it wouldn't be so bad if the Astartes went back to their Legiones Astartes form. All the original (loyalists) chapters have good, solid Chapter Masters in place.
Dante, Azrael, Marneus Calgar, Vulkan He'stan etc. All of them would be capable Legion Masters.

Because you are playing Codex Blood Angels, not Codex Blood Angels and Successors. At least as far as GW are concerned. The permission to use successors comes from older versions and that they can't stop you anyway. But they want you to play Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers, not Knights of Blood or Bloodrinkers or whatever.

Its the same as how they limit the DA codex to Belial, Company Master, Ezekiel, Sammael and Azrael, with no option of generic Chief Librarian, Chapter Master, Master of the Death/Ravenwing.

Dante smashed my face so hard it was miserable you should not get access to another!

 Deadshot wrote:
Because you are playing Codex Blood Angels, not Codex Blood Angels and Successors. At least as far as GW are concerned. The permission to use successors comes from older versions and that they can't stop you anyway. But they want you to play Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers, not Knights of Blood or Bloodrinkers or whatever.

Its the same as how they limit the DA codex to Belial, Company Master, Ezekiel, Sammael and Azrael, with no option of generic Chief Librarian, Chapter Master, Master of the Death/Ravenwing.

Im sure someone mentioned GW still including the other successors in the newest codex, as it was noted the absence of the Lamenters.

 Hubris wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Because you are playing Codex Blood Angels, not Codex Blood Angels and Successors. At least as far as GW are concerned. The permission to use successors comes from older versions and that they can't stop you anyway. But they want you to play Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers, not Knights of Blood or Bloodrinkers or whatever.

Its the same as how they limit the DA codex to Belial, Company Master, Ezekiel, Sammael and Azrael, with no option of generic Chief Librarian, Chapter Master, Master of the Death/Ravenwing.

Im sure someone mentioned GW still including the other successors in the newest codex, as it was noted the absence of the Lamenters.

That's fluff and paintjobs, not rules.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Hubris wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Because you are playing Codex Blood Angels, not Codex Blood Angels and Successors. At least as far as GW are concerned. The permission to use successors comes from older versions and that they can't stop you anyway. But they want you to play Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers, not Knights of Blood or Bloodrinkers or whatever.

Its the same as how they limit the DA codex to Belial, Company Master, Ezekiel, Sammael and Azrael, with no option of generic Chief Librarian, Chapter Master, Master of the Death/Ravenwing.

Im sure someone mentioned GW still including the other successors in the newest codex, as it was noted the absence of the Lamenters.

That's fluff and paintjobs, not rules.

My point is that if GW did not want people to play those others, then they would have cut them all from the Codex, pretended they don't exist rather the devote page space in the background section to them, as they do with everything else they decide they don't want anymore, GW don't care if someone plays Knights of Blood rather then Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers, they have always encouraged collectors to do whatever Chapter they want.

It is odd they did not give people the option when it would have been as simple as saying, you can't have two Chapter Masters(including Dante and Seth) in the same army.

It's doesn't make sense to me. But it is GW, what does make sense. You can't argue that it's a blood angels codex not a successor codex when they have a successor chapter in the book you can use.
I think they did it right with the grey knight codex. Putting both captain and grandmaster on same page different stat lines and allowing you to upgrade captain to master for a price increase

That and the new Seth is complete and utter ass compared to what he was (should be). Why anyone woukd use HIM as their LoW slot is beyond a mystery to me when most folks wouldnt use him as a regular HQ. I'd think it reasonable for a company like the FleshTearers to "let go" of a gakky CM if he iisn't pulling his weight. I want to run FT with a badass warlord. Why am I stuck with the half-flaccid Seth?

Yeah, crazy. It's almost as if you were better off with the old book. It's almost as if that 7th edition update that everyone was demanding of GW didn't automatically vault BA into top-tier like everyone expected.

Would it have mattered, though? I remember you once saying that it was too late for an update anyway because you had already eBay'd your stuff (several thousand points worth at that), and that it didn't matter if BA were "the most overpowered army ever", you still wouldn't play them anyway since GW made you wait so long. So if Seth wasn't flaccid then it would still mean exactly feth all.

And for what it's worth I don't like the BA codex, either, so I'm not defending it.

I think it's dumb too. What if you wanted to play the Blood Angels during M36? Or one of the successors? Yeah, you can just ally in a Chappy Master for C:SM but that's it.

Im not too bothered by it. Every marine dex (sans DA) get a unique HQ type. Marines get chapter masters, wolves get wolf guard battle leaders, and BA get sanguinary priests. The WGBL give you a cheap and very cost effective HQ to fill the slot or boost a squad, the chapter master can become a CC monster on the same level as a hive tyrant, and the priest is possibly the biggest squad buffer in the game. Im happy with what we got, but i see where youre coming from.

Motograter wrote:
There is two chapter masters in the book. No generic ones but such is life. Doesn't really make any difference

We still have access to Malakim Phoros, Chapter Master of the Lamenters.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, crazy. It's almost as if you were better off with the old book. It's almost as if that 7th edition update that everyone was demanding of GW didn't automatically vault BA into top-tier like everyone expected.

Would it have mattered, though? I remember you once saying that it was too late for an update anyway because you had already eBay'd your stuff (several thousand points worth at that), and that it didn't matter if BA were "the most overpowered army ever", you still wouldn't play them anyway since GW made you wait so long. So if Seth wasn't flaccid then it would still mean exactly feth all.

And for what it's worth I don't like the BA codex, either, so I'm not defending it.

Care to find the post where I said that or are you content to let your imagination do the talking for you?

Yes, thr new book is bland. And yes, as I expected some formations redeemed a bit of that. Still doesn't fix the conspicuous lack of a CM for any of us running successor chapters.

That has always been the price of playing a Successor. You either re-skin the special characters or go without.

Tell that to the Silver Skulls, Howling Griffons, or any other succesor in C:SM.