It Makes no Sense...

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**SGTPozy**

What rules do you think are weird in 40k?

It makes no sense how a motorcycle isn't counted as a vehicle... It's just weird.

Also, why is the warbuggy/wartrakk a vehicle when they are basically an Orky attack bike?

Planes are vehicles... But not helicopters (deffkoptas)?

Has anyone got an answer to any of these?

**pm713**

I really don't see why bikes would be counted as vehicles. It would just make them much tougher than they need to be seeing as you can shoot someone riding a bike.

A better question is why can you jump in front of a sniper shot.

**Ravenous D**

Don't question reality in a game of space fungus and giant hydraulic handed super soldiers.

Plus its abstract game mechanics.

**Jinx Magiga**

I think the rules for saves are a little wonky,they should be put inbetween To hit rolls and To wound rolls.

Currently you get hit,get badly hurt and THEN you get a save like the armor is somewhere inside you,same with cover

**SilverDevilfish**

I've pointed this out before but.

AM Orders.

Why are they the only ones that can yell at their troops and make them better? You're telling me a Chapter Master can't order his troops as well as Junior Officer Whatshisface?

Also why does yelling at guardsmen give their ammo magical sentience that allows it to go around rocks, walls, etc? (ignore cover) Even if you say "they're choosing their shots better", why can't much more well trained sharpshooters ignore cover then?

**SGTPozy**

pm713 wrote:
I really don't see why bikes would be counted as vehicles. It would just make them much tougher than they need to be seeing as you can shoot someone riding a bike.

A better question is why can you jump in front of a sniper shot.

I know it wouldn't work, but it still doesn't make sense how in 40k, motorcycles are no longer vehicles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another one: why don't Tau drones have FNP? They're robots!

**pm713**

They are vehicles. But give them the rules for vehicles and they get really OP.

**Deadnight**

SGTPozy wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I really don't see why bikes would be counted as vehicles. It would just make them much tougher than they need to be seeing as you can shoot someone riding a bike.

A better question is why can you jump in front of a sniper shot.

I know it wouldn't work, but it still doesn't make sense how in 40k, motorcycles are no longer vehicles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another one: why don't Tau drones have FNP? They're robots!

'Not feeling pain' means very little when you've been shot to pieces by armour piercing rounds.

**SGTPozy**

Why does anything have FNP then? Drugs help but literally not feeling pain doesn't? Surely FNP should be renamed to Received Medical Attention (RMA) instead then as that would make more sense.

**Sidstyler**

Yeah, going by that logic FNP makes no sense for anything then, because you can still be "shot to pieces" whether or not you can actually feel pain.

**ImAGeek**

I think you're getting far too hung up on the name of an abstract rule. Why aren't Necrons immune to poisoned weapons? Or anything robotic for that matter.

Feel No Pain is just a rule that lets certain units shrug off wounds. It just happens to be named Feel No Pain.

**Howard A Treesong**

Bikes used to count as vehicles in 2nd edition and each had their own datafax and damage to keep track of. It was just too complicated. Ravenwing armies were ridiculous.

**Deadnight**

SGTPozy wrote:
Why does anything have FNP then? Drugs help but literally not feeling pain doesn't? Surely FNP should be renamed to Received Medical Attention (RMA) instead then as that would make more sense.

Because they use willpower/faith/desperation/adrenalin-or-other-drug-cocktail to temporarily ignore pain/injury and go above and beyond. Trust me, all those guys making their fnp saves are probably dying right after the battle from their wounds.

Those drones? They don't have advanced self repair protocols or an innate desire to go above and beyond. Essentially, they're nothing special.

**MarsNZ**

Battlesuits that count as monsters rather than vehicles

Armoured monsters that count as vehicles rather than monsters

Poison that can hurt robots and emotions

Large blast type weapons that can miss so badly as to end up behind the shooter

**Tod**

MarsNZ wrote:
Large blast type weapons that can miss so badly as to end up behind the shooter

This.
I've had games when i've shot blast weapons at a target about 7 or so inches away, but after scatter, the blast ends up scrapping the left arm of the shooter

**vipoid**

Knowing no Fear is somehow different from being Fearless.

**changemod**

In regards to bikes and being a vehicle: They don't take up enough of the bulk of the model to override that it's just a tool for the rider. It makes him faster and a little tougher, but is effectively more mechanical cavalry than driving a tank around.

A better question is "Why is a Wraithknight a Monstrous Creature when the only slightly taller and built on identical principles Revenant Titan is a super heavy Walker?"

**TheSilo**

In Chess:

- How can castles move?

- Why are religious leaders so deadly?

- Why can't the infantry turn?

Because it's necessary for the game.

**Akiasura**

The way that cover works in the game.

I think that its very weird that a small wall, my fellow trooper (regardless of his armor or toughness), and grass all protects against a plasma gun 1/3 of the time.

In addition, I believe the way cover works is actively ruining the game. Armies like Marines don't care too much about cover unless facing an absurd amount of Ap2/3 firepower, in which case they gain the same save as everyone else. Armies like guard and nids however, gain only slightly worse than marine saves while paying dramatically less for it.

Cover should be a BS modifier like in necromunda. It makes the game a lot more tactical, armor still matters (somewhat...we rule that weapons don't reduce armor until Str 5, in 40k it would be fine), and everyone benefits.

**eskimo**

Armour saves after wounding :/

+posts above mine. Less rerolls and more modifiers is needed

**gameaa**

You may still be "shot to be able to pieces" whether you could sense discomfort.

**Gamerely**

How come jinking doesn't have more of an impact on the phase other than shooting? I always viewed jinking as going to ground... just for the air. It can be brutal against daemons where they can just jink at will and not worry about it since they have no guns. If you jink you shouldn't be able to move the next turn. I'd argue that it's because they're: tired from juking and jiving in the air, momentarily frazzled from the stress of having to avoid so many shots, need a second to figure out where they are, etc. Right now there's not an equal trade off for granting the bonus cover.

**vipoid**

- How do bikes jink without, you know, falling over and killing themselves?

- How does any model jink without actually altering it's position?

- How do fliers jink against non-skyfire weapons? Considering how bad the aim of such weapons is, you'd think they'd just end up jinking into shots that would otherwise have missed.

**changemod**

Gamerely wrote:
How come jinking doesn't have more of an impact on the phase other than shooting? I always viewed jinking as going to ground... just for the air. It can be brutal against daemons where they can just jink at will and not worry about it since they have no guns. If you jink you shouldn't be able to move the next turn. I'd argue that it's because they're: tired from juking and jiving in the air, momentarily frazzled from the stress of having to avoid so many shots, need a second to figure out where they are, etc. Right now there's not an equal trade off for granting the bonus cover.

It's only a problem because you also need to Snapfire them first. Hitting on sixes then getting ignored because of a free cover save is no fun.

**Gamerely**

vipoid wrote:
- How do bikes jink without, you know, falling over and killing themselves?

- How does any model jink without actually altering it's position?

- How do fliers jink against non-skyfire weapons? Considering how bad the aim of such weapons is, you'd think they'd just end up jinking into shots that would otherwise have missed.

When my friend jinks with his bikers I like to imagine they just start doing donuts right in place. But yeah. if you had to declare a jink and move d6 back to your table edge or something like that, that might be a bit better I feel. At least it's something a little more punishing.

**Blacksails**

I'd prefer if Jink was declared in the owning players movement phase, sort of like evasive maneuvers rather than a reactionary thing.

**SGTPozy**

How exactly does Mark of Nurgle grant you +1T? It makes no sense how rotting can make you tougher.

**vipoid**

Blacksails wrote:
I'd prefer if Jink was declared in the owning players movement phase, sort of like evasive maneuvers rather than a reactionary thing.

Didn't it used to be that way? With units getting Jink saves by moving flat-out?

changemod wrote:

It's only a problem because you also need to Snapfire them first. Hitting on sixes then getting ignored because of a free cover save is no fun.

I think fliers should just get a 'free' jink save (i.e. it doesn't cause them to snapehot). Even a 3+ one would be infinitely better than the 'snapshots only' nonsense we have at the moment.

**Blacksails**

vipoid wrote:

Didn't it used to be that way? With units getting Jink saves by moving flat-out?

If I remember 5th correctly, yes. It was basically just a cover save granted by going Ludicrous speed, but it was done in the movement phase and had it own set of drawbacks.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, been a while.

I just think it makes more sense fluff/in-universe wise, at no cost to game flow, while making the game feel more 'tactical' in terms of decision making, while allowing your opponent to make an informed decision on where to apply firepower.

Being able to yell 'Jink!' whenever I declare a shot against a unit doesn't strike me as fun, tactical, logical, or engaging. Its just annoying. Let my opponent decide if they want to start doing donuts in their own movement phase.

**Tannhauser42**

Ultimately, it boils down to the scale of the game, the level of abstraction required to represent that scale, and the legacy of being founded on a 20+ year old system that has evolved very little over the years. If you want detailed and sensible rules, you would have to go for a skirmish level game with more modern design.

"Sense" won't come to 40K unless/until they do a complete rewrite of the rules from the ground up.