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2014/12/20 22:07:22
Subject: Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
I can't help but feel we are on the verge of something--as a society. Before I felt it would be like most moments, boil a bit, then blow over...but if this cycle doesn't end, I don't know what the hell is going to happen. Just two cops, doing an anti-terrorism drill, then this psychopath walks up to the car and murders them. If this keeps up, I'm concerned we will end up with a police state.
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2014/12/20 22:18:50
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Without properly addressing the concerns of the people this cycle will just continue. Stupid, ignorant people on both sides will take it out one some perceived enemy, until things like this happen. Both communities, both black and police, should work together to sort this out. By spouting rhetoric, or refusing to fix this this will happen again and again. How many innocent lives must be lost before this happens? Dozens, hundreds, thousands? At times it seems that the bad growth will topple the whole tree, but we must not let this happen. Most cops are good honest people. Most blacks are good honest people. We can kill this growth before it gets too far, but, it seems to me, we are too wrapped up in our own little worlds, of hate and prejudice to allow that to happen.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/12/20 22:25:50
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
My thoughts on this is pretty much summed up here:
Spoiler:
[This is a time of shame] and a time of sorrow. It is not a day for politics. I have saved this one opportunity -- my only event of today -- to speak briefly to you about the mindless menace of violence in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.
It's not the concern of any one race. The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old, famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings whom other human beings loved and needed. No one -- no matter where he lives or what he does -- can be certain whom next will suffer from some senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on and on in this country of ours.
Why? What has violence ever accomplished? What has it ever created? No martyr's cause has ever been stilled by an assassin's bullet. No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders. A sniper is only a coward, not a hero; and an uncontrolled or uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of the people.
Whenever any American's life is taken by another American unnecessarily -- whether it is done in the name of the law or in defiance of the law, by one man or by a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence -- whenever we tear at the fabric of our lives which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children -- whenever we do this, then whole nation is degraded. "Among free men," said Abraham Lincoln, "there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and those who take such appeal are sure to lose their case and pay the cost."
Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike. We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far off lands. We glorify killing on movie and television screens and we call it entertainment. We make it easier for men of all shades of sanity to acquire weapons and ammunition that they desire.
Too often we honor swagger and bluster and the wielders of force. Too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of other human beings. Some Americans who preach nonviolence abroad fail to practice it here at home. Some who accuse others of rioting, and inciting riots, have by their own conduct invited them. Some look for scapegoats; others look for conspiracies. But this much is clear: violence breeds violence; repression breeds retaliation; and only a cleaning of our whole society can remove this sickness from our souls.
For there is another kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. This is a slow destruction of a child by hunger, and schools without books, and homes without heat in the winter. This is the breaking of a man's spirit by denying him the chance to stand as a father and as a man amongst other men.
And this too afflicts us all. For when you teach a man to hate and to fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies that he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your home or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies -- to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and to be mastered.
We learn, at the last, to look at our brothers as alien, alien men with whom we share a city, but not a community, men bound to us in common dwelling, but not in a common effort. We learn to share only a common fear -- only a common desire to retreat from each other -- only a common impulse to meet disagreement with force.
For all this there are no final answers for those of us who are American citizens. Yet we know what we must do, and that is to achieve true justice among all of our fellow citizens. The question is not what programs we should seek to enact. The question is whether we can find in our own midst and in our own hearts that leadership of humane purpose that will recognize the terrible truths of our existence.
We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions, the false distinctions among men, and learn to find our own advancement in search for the advancement of all. We must admit to ourselves that our own children's future cannot be built on the misfortune of another's. We must recognize that this short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or by revenge.
Our lives on this planet are too short, the work to be done is too great to let this spirit flourish any longer in this land of ours. Of course we cannot vanish it with a program, nor with a resolution.
But we can perhaps remember -- if only for a time -- that those who live with us are our brothers, that they share with us the same short movement of life, that they seek -- as do we -- nothing but the chance to live out their lives in purpose and in happiness, winning what satisfaction and fulfillment that they can.
Surely this bond of common fate, surely this bond of common goals can begin to teach us something. Surely we can learn, at the least, to look around at those of us, of our fellow man, and surely we can begin to work a little harder to bind up the wounds among us and to become in our hearts brothers and countrymen once again.
Tennyson wrote in Ulysses:
[Moved earth and heaven,] that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Thank you, very much.
It is sad that a speech from over 40 years ago is still relevant today...
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 23:26:09
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/12/20 22:54:05
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
The simple truth is, too often, for too many people, violence is the easy way. They don't want to actually address/resolve their problems, as that is the hard way. It is easier to simply go and shoot a visible symbol of your problem. Kids don't like you at school? Shoot them up. Cops gave you a hard time? Shoot them up. Wife didn't make you a sandwich? Shoot her up.
And our society enables this far too often. Because the media falls all over themselves to tell the full story of the shooter, often nearly portraying them as victims of society (whether bullied, outcast, oppressed, didn't get the mental treatment they needed, etc.). Our culture grants near celebrity-status-immortality to serial killers and high profile criminals by remembering their names long after they're gone, and not one of their actual victims is ever remembered. As long as those who choose the path of violence are rewarded in this way, there will always be more and more walking that path.
/mini-rant over
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2014/12/20 23:11:19
Subject: Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Yeah, let's solve mindless violence with more mindless violence. That'll get the public on your side!
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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2014/12/20 23:34:18
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Relapse wrote: I wonder if the murderer will be hailed as a hero.
Why?
Probably because some people have an irrational hatred of all police.
I don't know about that. If I was one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who grew up impoverished and with a largely adversarial relationship with the police, I don't think i would have an irrational hatred. It is pointless and self-defeating, but not irrational.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2014/12/21 02:53:47
Subject: Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Probably because of all the "kill the cops" rhetoric in the protests happening, do ya think?
Just out of curiosity, do you remember that Nevada rancher you spent pages upon pages of comments defending? He threatened violence against police officers (federal and otherwise) who tried to bring him to justice over the multitude of laws he broke, going so far as to rally a group of heavily armed self-styled "patriots" who also threatened LEOs (while aiming weapons at them, no less). Joining their cause was conservative politicians and pundits in the media, hyping their anti-cop and violent rhetoric. Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
Were they hailed as heroes?
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/12/21 03:23:58
Subject: Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Not hundreds of millions. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of Americans, living in poverty, growing up with an adversarial relationship with police. This system is generations old now.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2014/12/21 03:31:51
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Probably because of all the "kill the cops" rhetoric in the protests happening, do ya think?
Just out of curiosity, do you remember that Nevada rancher you spent pages upon pages of comments defending? He threatened violence against police officers (federal and otherwise) who tried to bring him to justice over the multitude of laws he broke, going so far as to rally a group of heavily armed self-styled "patriots" who also threatened LEOs (while aiming weapons at them, no less). Joining their cause was conservative politicians and pundits in the media, hyping their anti-cop and violent rhetoric. Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
Were they hailed as heroes?
I thought he was a wrong, also, and said so. What I hated was what I was hearing about the way family there said the feds were treating people
and affecting the living of the area. I did think about that as I was making my comments here. No way do I think anyone who guns down a cop as a hero.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/21 03:32:50
2014/12/21 03:33:55
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
To be fair, those two weren't really part of Bundy's "posse." They were specifically asked to leave a few days after they showed up because they were "too radical" (read: nuts).
Relapse wrote: I wonder if the murderer will be hailed as a hero.
Why?
Probably because some people have an irrational hatred of all police.
I don't know about that. If I was one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who grew up impoverished and with a largely adversarial relationship with the police, I don't think i would have an irrational hatred. It is pointless and self-defeating, but not irrational.
The fact that it is pointless and self-defeating has a big part to do with why it is irrational.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/21 03:34:22
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
To be fair, those two weren't really part of Bundy's "posse." They were specifically asked to leave a few days after they showed up because they were "too radical" (read: nuts).
More nutty than Bundy, that's impressive.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/12/21 03:39:50
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
To be fair, those two weren't really part of Bundy's "posse." They were specifically asked to leave a few days after they showed up because they were "too radical" (read: nuts).
More nutty than Bundy, that's impressive.
It's not that impressive, considering Bundy didn't murder any police officers.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
To be fair, those two weren't really part of Bundy's "posse." They were specifically asked to leave a few days after they showed up because they were "too radical" (read: nuts).
More nutty than Bundy, that's impressive.
It's not that impressive, considering Bundy didn't murder any police officers.
It was meant in jest, making fun of the nuttiness of Bundy.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/12/21 03:44:51
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
Hordini wrote: Probably because some people have an irrational hatred of all police.
I don't know about that. If I was one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who grew up impoverished and with a largely adversarial relationship with the police, I don't think i would have an irrational hatred. It is pointless and self-defeating, but not irrational.
The fact that it is pointless and self-defeating has a big part to do with why it is irrational.
The pointless and self defeating reasons are still rational reasons.
For something to be irrational, it has to be without reason. Do you believe that impoverished blacks have no reason to hate the police?
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2014/12/21 03:52:30
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
I see NYPD going to having a hiring issue in a few months
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2014/12/21 03:54:07
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
feeder wrote: For something to be irrational, it has to be without reason. Do you believe that impoverished blacks have no reason to hate the police?
I don't think anyone has a reason to hate all police. Some people have reasons to hate some police, and some reasons are even valid, but I don't consider a hatred of all police to be anything approaching rational. By the standard you're offering, you could claim that racism is rational as long as there is a reason for it, regardless of whether or not that reason is valid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/21 03:54:27
Surely nobody on either side would ever make statements such as "justice was served", "he deserved that", "good riddance" or any other statement like that following the death of another human being and celebrate said death as a "good thing"...
2014/12/21 04:01:35
Subject: Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
d-usa wrote: Surely nobody on either side would ever make statements such as "justice was served", "he deserved that", "good riddance" or any other statement like that following the death of another human being and celebrate said death as a "good thing"...
Oh, that's ridiculous. Of course people would, and rightly so. I certainly would. There exists an unfortunately large number of people out there whose deaths would make the world a much better place. Osama Bin Laden was one example. The ISIS members who cut peoples' heads off and enslave women and children would be another.
That said, I don't consider two NYPD officers sitting in their police cruiser to be among that group.
feeder wrote: For something to be irrational, it has to be without reason. Do you believe that impoverished blacks have no reason to hate the police?
I don't think anyone has a reason to hate all police. Some people have reasons to hate some police, and some reasons are even valid, but I don't consider a hatred of all police to be anything approaching rational. By the standard you're offering, you could claim that racism is rational as long as there is a reason for it, regardless of whether or not that reason is valid.
Do you believe impoverished blacks have no valid reason to hate police? I'm not trying to bait you into some silly "gotcha!" point scoring trap here, I am genuinely interested.
Personally, I can understand why there is so much hate on both sides here.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2014/12/21 04:02:27
Subject: Re:Two NY police officers shot execution style--revenge shooting for Mike Brown/Garner
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Then do you remember when two people from his posse ambushed some cops at a CiCi's Pizza in Las Vegas and killed them?
To be fair, those two weren't really part of Bundy's "posse." They were specifically asked to leave a few days after they showed up because they were "too radical" (read: nuts).
I know, and yet that doesn't stop some people here from lumping this donkey-cave that shot two cops in with the rest of the people who are protesting police brutality.
I thought he was a wrong, also, and said so. What I hated was what I was hearing about the way family there said the feds were treating people
and affecting the living of the area. I did think about that as I was making my comments here. No way do I think anyone who guns down a cop as a hero.
The point is people, motivated by the divisive rhetoric coming from Bundy and many of the pundits and politicians that supported him, committed a heinous crime. However, you are able to remove yourself from them because it's inconvenient to have that crime as a tally mark on your "side," which is fair enough because I know you don't agree with their actions. Yet your first response here is questioning whether or not this person would be "hailed as a hero" because of all of the "'kill the cops' rhetoric in the protests" (also, I'm not exactly sure where that information is coming from so please feel free to enlighten us) coming from "them," because in your eyes, all the people protesting police brutality would obviously be thrilled that two innocent police officers were gunned down.
What I am getting at is that it is possible to agree with the protesters in this case that police brutality is wrong but gunning cops down isn't the way to fix it, just like it was that feeling that Bundy was innocent and the Feds were in the wrong yet gunning cops down wasn't the way to fix it. Do you not see a similar set of circumstances here?
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."