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col_impact wrote:
S10 armourbane auto penetrates AV12 vehicles which helps you out against all sorts of targets (including Imperial Knights), ID kills most characters (unless they have Eternal Warrior) and wounds Wraith Knights on a 2+. Seems good for an additional 50 points.

First is okay, but still costs a lot more than just taking scarabs and is in an army that never really struggles with vehicles. Second requires you to roll a six to precision shot then your enemy to roll a 1 to look out sir, then fail their invulnerable save. Third... Well yes, it is indeed an excellent anti knight or Eldar Wraith army unit. Isn't that getting into catering to specific opponents though?

It's a bonus, but it still falls into the same trap the Barge Lord always falls into. One with nothing but a Scythe isn't pricier than a combat lord, but has a lot of vulnerabilities. One kitted up as a combat lord is so expensive that it starts eating into the rest of your army, and has low damage potential for cost. A combat lord with triple Thermecite has no remaining weaknesses beyond a few types of tarpit, but is now running Lord of War prices for a unit that lacks the range or number of attacks a comparable LoW would have.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
You are conflating two rules.

"Any number of Crypteks can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

"Any number of Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

Check the codex for the rule that is actually in the codex.

Having an Overlord in a detachment is what grants the detachment the ability to have a Royal Court. The rules as they are right now would require the Shard formation having the ability to have a Royal Court. But the Formation doesn't.

And I'm telling you, you've misread it completely by focusing on a term within the sentence rather than the totality.

The rule is granting permission to duplicate harbingers within a court, which is important because otherwise the following sentence about not duplicating wargear would mean only one of each harbinger type per court, as they would all have the same staff.

It says nothing about needing to be in a court to become a harbinger.

Actually I see something else that might get what you want.

The Cryptek entry list itself grants broad permission to upgrade to a Harbinger by exchanging staff of light for a Harbinger weapon. The asterix then clarifies "Any number of Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

So the logical conflation that I was doing was conflating these two rules

"Any number of Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

"Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

col_impact wrote:
Actually I see something else that might get what you want.

The Cryptek entry list itself grants broad permission to upgrade to a Harbinger by exchanging staff of light for a Harbinger weapon. The asterix then clarifies "Any number of Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

So the logical conflation that I was doing was conflating these two rules

"Any number of Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

"Crypteks that are in a Royal Court can be upgraded to a single, specific type of Harbinger"

That's what I was trying to point out.

The sentence about courts and specific Harbingers is part of a paragraph that, with unnecessarily clunky wording, says that two Crypteks can have the same staff, but can't take the same additional wargear. It isn't granting the permission to upgrade to harbinger in the first place, which preexists.

You are wrong about S10 warscythe not being a big deal here. He can challenge and wipe HQs and ID kill things like TWC by going to s10. He basically jumps to the top of the combat monsters and even have a solid chance of taking out something like a T. C'tan all on his lonesome. Keep in mind that he will be reanimating 58% of the time (from the Mephrit Dynasty buff) and therewith getting "hit and run" on top of re-rolling his 2+ and rolls of one on his 3++.


So the optimal load out seems to be

Veiltek - Veil of Darkness, God shackle 70 points
Stormtek - Voltaic Staff, Lightning Field 35 points
C'tan Shard - Pyre Shards, Transdimensional Thunderbolt 245 points

350 points!

so you get an S7, T7, 4+, 4++, eternal warrior

with +1 S, and + 1 T, 5+ FNP and +2 W from crypteks (that are all ablative yet reanimating buffs)

deep stike each turn, template attack (from the veil), haywire attack (from the storm tek)

col_impact wrote:
. Keep in mind that he will be reanimating 58% of the time (from the Mephrit Dynasty buff) and therewith getting "hit and run" on top of re-rolling his 2+ and rolls of one on his 3++.

Specific to troops, the Dynasty buff.

As for a Tran C'tan...

Six wounds, 4 invul followed by FNP...

He'll hurt it, but he's getting stomped in return. Can't reanimate from that.

It creates a solid unit, but it's specific. Strength 8 and rerolling 1s on saves is a much bigger deal that those extra two strength points are.

changemod wrote:

col_impact wrote:
. Keep in mind that he will be reanimating 58% of the time (from the Mephrit Dynasty buff) and therewith getting "hit and run" on top of re-rolling his 2+ and rolls of one on his 3++.

Specific to troops, the Dynasty buff.

As for a Tran C'tan...

Six wounds, 4 invul followed by FNP...

He'll hurt it, but he's getting stomped in return. Can't reanimate from that.

It creates a solid unit, but it's specific. Strength 8 and rerolling 1s on saves is a much bigger deal that those extra two strength points are.

You can reanimate from Stomp. What makes you think you can't?

Also keep in mind that half the time the T. C'tan is going to be hitting himself.

People focussing on the S10 warscythes are missing that you also get S9 Tesla with him with 24" range which is not to be sniffed at! Though for me I'll play with 1 of each relic as that seems to be the clear intent so no reason to play otherwise. However it would open up some serious units.

col_impact wrote:
You can reanimate from Stomp. What makes you think you can't?

The fact that it flat out removes everything under it on a 6?

Also keep in mind that half the time the T. C'tan is going to be hitting himself.

You're just determined to sink as many points into this as you can, aren't you?

Yes, the more points you sink into a Command barge the more of it's weaknesses you plug... But you're still sinking more and more and more points into it. Constantly.

changemod wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You can reanimate from Stomp. What makes you think you can't?

The fact that it flat out removes everything under it on a 6?

Ever living rules trigger on being removed as a casualty, which Stomp triggers.


With regards to your comments on the bargeLord, I just don't think you have the right perspective on it. Sure against horde armies or casual armies its dumb, but against the best decks of the tourney track those points spent are golden, since they defeat the Dread Knight, Wraith Knight, and Imperial Knights, and Demons that rule the field.

The fact that it flat out removes everything under it on a 6? 

You get RP against removed effects.

You're just determined to sink as many points into this as you can, aren't you? 

Yes, the more points you sink into a Command barge the more of it's weaknesses you plug... But you're still sinking more and more and more points into it. Constantly.

Taking MSS is not sinking points into a Barge Lord it is absolutely mandatory equipment that everyone would ever take.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Taking MSS is not sinking points into a Barge Lord it is absolutely mandatory equipment that everyone would ever take.

Yes, because it's your "I don't have Eternal Warrior" insurance.

Mephrit has rerollable saves and a warlord table with EW on it. Suddenly it stops looking so urgent.

No MSS is your Ws4 & I2 insurance. If you could pick to have EW then yes MSS isn't as important but an 11:36 chance at EW isn't making the fairly small 15 point investment not mandatory. Ignoring ID for a second (as anything worth fighting will have EW or be T5+) MSS is still mandatory as Ws4 means you're not killing in a single round whilst an enemy hitting on 3s has a real chance to take you out in a couple of rounds. MSS should mean even if you strike after your opponent you should get 2 rounds at him for everyone 1 he gets at you plus you get some extra hits. It is absolutely worth the 15 point investment. As others have pointed out this helps make him the combat beast in the game which is great when playing against top tier lists.

changemod wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Taking MSS is not sinking points into a Barge Lord it is absolutely mandatory equipment that everyone would ever take.

Yes, because it's your "I don't have Eternal Warrior" insurance.

Mephrit has rerollable saves and a warlord table with EW on it. Suddenly it stops looking so urgent.

But if you don't take it, you can't mock your opponent to stop hitting themselves. Also the extra attacks from your opponent can help take down larger units that try and tar pit you.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No MSS is your Ws4 & I2 insurance. If you could pick to have EW then yes MSS isn't as important but an 11:36 chance at EW isn't making the fairly small 15 point investment not mandatory. Ignoring ID for a second (as anything worth fighting will have EW or be T5+) MSS is still mandatory as Ws4 means you're not killing in a single round whilst an enemy hitting on 3s has a real chance to take you out in a couple of rounds. MSS should mean even if you strike after your opponent you should get 2 rounds at him for everyone 1 he gets at you plus you get some extra hits. It is absolutely worth the 15 point investment. As others have pointed out this helps make him the combat beast in the game which is great when playing against top tier lists.

I defend MSS against the people who say it's not fun to play against because if a force weapon shows up, I'm probably dead before I can strike back. It's a weak solution too. Just turns it into a coin flip as to whether I'll be force-shivved or not.

The Thermicite is actually a better solution. The majority of force weapons aren't AP2, so I'm pretty much safe unless I roll two 1s in a row, equivalent to losing two wounds without the Thermicite. Even if it is AP2, I've got a roughly terminator save against it.

Taking MSS on top of that would just be mean. Their key role is filled.

As for not doing enough wounds in one round? Well yes, that's why I don't take solo Lords. Immunity to the shooting phase isn't a cure to low damage output in the assault phase.

I typed up a bit of a rant after this, but there's not a lot of a point to actually posting it. Boiled down to complaining about the attitudes of netlisters.

Where are the Mephrit dynasty rules at ?

Shield of Baal: Exterminatus Book 2

Someone leaked the rules before the release on their Facebook page.

col_impact wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Can you quote from the new Necron book?

When it come out I sure will


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also page three of Exterminatus:the rules states "this book includes rules, unique wargear, warlord traits..."

Unique also doesn't carry rule weight. It just strengthens a RAI argument.

You and are arguing toward the same conclusion. I agree with you that you need to treat it as Chapter Relics.

However, your argument is currently based on conjecture. You are likely correct but you are still just going off conjecture.

My argument follows the standards you have to apply across all the rules. Uphold RAW unless it leads to brokenness. If broken then switch to conservative HYWPI based on the most elegant RAI.

Well since you are ignoring the rules on page 3 then don't bother with anythg from Exterminatus, since the only permission you have to use anything in that book in campaign or non campaign games, comes from that page and the same section dictating that the wargear is Unique.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Can you quote from the new Necron book?

When it come out I sure will


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also page three of Exterminatus:the rules states "this book includes rules, unique wargear, warlord traits..."

Unique also doesn't carry rule weight. It just strengthens a RAI argument.

You and are arguing toward the same conclusion. I agree with you that you need to treat it as Chapter Relics.

However, your argument is currently based on conjecture. You are likely correct but you are still just going off conjecture.

My argument follows the standards you have to apply across all the rules. Uphold RAW unless it leads to brokenness. If broken then switch to conservative HYWPI based on the most elegant RAI.

Well since you are ignoring the rules on page 3 then don't bother with anythg from Exterminatus, since the only permission you have to use anything in that book in campaign or non campaign games, comes from that page and the same section dictating that the wargear is Unique.

Show in the rules where unique carries any rules weight.

I defend MSS against the people who say it's not fun to play against because if a force weapon shows up, I'm probably dead before I can strike back. It's a weak solution too. Just turns it into a coin flip as to whether I'll be force-shivved or not. 

The Thermicite is actually a better solution. The majority of force weapons aren't AP2, so I'm pretty much safe unless I roll two 1s in a row, equivalent to losing two wounds without the Thermicite. Even if it is AP2, I've got a roughly terminator save against it. 

Taking MSS on top of that would just be mean. Their key role is filled. 

The underlined line is the important thing here. You're essentially saying yes MSS and Thermite together are very good. So why continue arguing against it?

Page 26 of 'Exterminatus - The Rules'

Unique Wargear

"[Blood Angels bit]. Characters with the Necrons Faction that are part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book can select an item from the Relics of the War in Heaven list at the points cost shown. Only one of each of the relics may be chosen per army -- there is only one of each of these items in the galaxy."

And this is why we don't discuss unreleased rules in YMDC. Especially when they degenerate into tactics.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Page 26 of 'Exterminatus - The Rules'

Unique Wargear

"[Blood Angels bit]. Characters with the Necrons Faction that are part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book can select an item from the Relics of the War in Heaven list at the points cost shown. Only one of each of the relics may be chosen per army -- there is only one of each of these items in the galaxy."

Cool. That RAW quote fully settles the issue. So good spot on that.

The resolution of this thread is . . .

one God Shackle per army
the crypteks attached to the C'tan Shard in the formation can be upgraded to Harbingers

rigeld2 wrote:
And this is why we don't discuss unreleased rules in YMDC. Especially when they degenerate into tactics.

I had the book in my hands when I asked, actually. They appear to have placed that line nowhere near the Mephrit section.

But yeah, that's good. Simplifies the issue a great deal.

I look forwards to making allied Necron lists, once the codex is out. Already tried my hand at making an assaulty horde by combining Kutlakh, a Destroyer Lord and a Mephrit Lord with the Solar Thermecite into a forty troop and a scarab farm horde.

So I was correct in all my assumptions...

Anywho, unless we have revamped c'tan shards in the upcoming codex, the formation and relic are just another fluff ball to be back shot into the pay no mind bin.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Check to see if there's a generic reference in the book that's similar to "Any relics presented in this book are one per army/detachment/formation regardless of faction".

Otherwise looking at the scanned page there's nothing that says you couldn't take multiple relics even within the same detachment/formation.

First, damn thing I said in the thread.

 Nyghoma wrote:
So I was correct in all my assumptions...

Anywho, unless we have revamped c'tan shards in the upcoming codex, the formation and relic are just another fluff ball to be back shot into the pay no mind bin.

Dunno, a S8, T8, 6 W 4+, 4++, 5+++, Eternal Warrior monster that can deep strike each turn and pump out 4 separate shooting attacks (one of those a 4 shot Haywire attack!) is not to be shelved away without testing. Mobility + Haywire is good.

I see the RAW assumption allowing Crypteks in the C'Tan formation to be upgraded to harbingers being somewhat contentious. RAW the point could be made for stating the opposite. My reading of the sentence:

Another way of looking at it is that The cryptek can turn into the Harbringers because those are upgrades available to them period. The * is just talking about crypteks that are in the royal court and the limits of the weapons crypteks can take in the royal court. Could this mean that crypteks outside of the RC can not only upgrade but also take multiples of the special wargear like two chronoteks both with 3++ and the re-rolls? Not saying this is a good thing to do just a thought experiment.

Oberron wrote:
Another way of looking at it is that The cryptek can turn into the Harbringers because those are upgrades available to them period. The * is just talking about crypteks that are in the royal court and the limits of the weapons crypteks can take in the royal court. Could this mean that crypteks outside of the RC can not only upgrade but also take multiples of the special wargear like two chronoteks both with 3++ and the re-rolls? Not saying this is a good thing to do just a thought experiment.

Yes, that's also what I noticed.
The Wargear-restriction is only for Royal Courts and this is not a Royal Court.

Not that it really matters, because you really want at least one Veil of Darkness and another one.
My second Cryptek will most likely be an Eternity, so I can have T8 with a 3++ and a reroll that I can use on the Veil of Darkness.

I'm still struggling to get over the literal reading of "any number of Crypteks in a Royal Court" meaning no harbinger upgrade outside of the Court. The asterisked rule was not written under the assumption that a Cryptek would ever be taken outside a Court and the formation lists the unit type as Cryptek rather than as Harbinger, while units in formations are still upgradeable generally my belief is that the formation was designed with the asterisk in the original Necron Codex in mind but of course I could be completely wrong. Hopefully the new Codex will state explicitly that they can be upgraded or will have a new set of relics for them, like the Haemonculi in the Dark Eldar Codex. Otherwise I feel that RAW an opponent could argue that they are not upgradeable.