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3dog wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The better question is why bother making HH-era units for xenos when they all fought and were organized in the exact same way as they are in 40K? There's no difference between 30K Eldar and 40K Eldar aesthetically, socially or in military doctrine/organization. Same with Orks and all the other 40K xenos they encountered during the crusade. Meanwhile, the entire Imperial hierarchy was flipped upside down. The Imperial Army looked completely different from the Guard of the 41st millenium, and used all kinds of technology that was lost during the Heresy- Space Marines looked different, fought different and also used all manners of technology no longer in service after the 31st millenium.

I wouldn't mind seeing some short-stories and maybe even some mission types centered around Xenos-Astartes interaction in the HH books, but I don't think an alternate model line and/or set of rules for xenos armies is justified.

I can agree on a lot of this but that just means that 40k xenos are covered. The hrud, for example, would be a pretty badass addition IMO. Not to mention any number of now extinct xenos who could be wrote in as being caught in the cross fire.

Hrud are too OP. Your army would consist of ten models for fighting an entire company of Legionnaires.

To answer the "why" if you check the Betrayal FAQ it says if you do use Orks and Eldar for Heresy battles you may want to house-rule to increase their maximum squad size, which shows FW thinks some tweaks may be necessary.

elder need no help at all against HH, orks defo would, when you get 40 shot culverin squads that can delete a mob a turn, admittedly for 400pts, but still its easy to do.

Tau do fine against HH and its actually a better matchup, Deldar again do ok ish, but lack in certain areas as most armies do, 40k marines eat 30k with the different grav and tacticals being better (generally), tyranids have a hell of a time against HH as they cannot deal with being out horded and HH SC beat TMC to death (I had kharn wipe a 3 man carnifex brood in 1 round), Chaos are oddly on par in certain areas due to FW, but that might as well be 30k on 30k, BA/DA/SW all do as you would expect, but im thinking new BA may edge out as better.

all in all, 30k is pretty balanced against 40k, with a few notable bad matchups

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The better question is why bother making HH-era units for xenos when they all fought and were organized in the exact same way as they are in 40K? There's no difference between 30K Eldar and 40K Eldar aesthetically, socially or in military doctrine/organization. Same with Orks and all the other 40K xenos they encountered during the crusade. Meanwhile, the entire Imperial hierarchy was flipped upside down. The Imperial Army looked completely different from the Guard of the 41st millenium, and used all kinds of technology that was lost during the Heresy- Space Marines looked different, fought different and also used all manners of technology no longer in service after the 31st millenium.

I wouldn't mind seeing some short-stories and maybe even some mission types centered around Xenos-Astartes interaction in the HH books, but I don't think an alternate model line and/or set of rules for xenos armies is justified.

I would generally agree. 30k should only apply to Imperial and Renegade forces. 40k Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Chaos Daemons would be appropriate against 30k forces.

However, 40k has additional Tyranid hive fleets / tendrils with different species / mutations not seen in 30k, so Tyranids should be limited to 3E units, not the wierd fancy stuff since then.

Tau and Grey Knights would be BANNED from 30k, or course. Had a Heresey-era force encountered the Tau, the Tau wouldn't exist in 40k. Kroot would be OK, but they're awfully limited...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Tau and Grey Knights would be BANNED from 30k, or course. Had a Heresey-era force encountered the Tau, the Tau wouldn't exist in 40k. Kroot would be OK, but they're awfully limited...

Using the Tau codex as Tau would be wrong, yes. But, I think the Tau codex can easily be used to represent any of the technologically advanced alien races fought during the Crusade.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Tau and Grey Knights would be BANNED from 30k, or course. Had a Heresey-era force encountered the Tau, the Tau wouldn't exist in 40k. Kroot would be OK, but they're awfully limited...

Using the Tau codex as Tau would be wrong, yes. But, I think the Tau codex can easily be used to represent any of the technologically advanced alien races fought during the Crusade.

Necrons too. They were all dormant during 30k, were they not?

And Tyranids had not arrived yet as well.

Sure, I'm OK with that from a count-as vs Fluff standoint!

It'd be cool if FW did some pre-heresy crusade era xenos... but thats not likely.

Tau cannot be in 30k :

- "The exact date of the founding of the Tau Empire in the Imperial Calendar is unclear, however the way in which the Tau were united as a species is a well-known tale. What is known is that only 6,000 standard years ago, in the 35th Millennium, an Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator fleet had discovered the Tau homeworld of T'au and determined that its population of sentient xenos were a primitive people at the Stone Age level of development who had only just mastered fire. They have developed very rapidly as a space-faring species."

the HH is a good system: you use it and whichever 40k rule book you like (i like 6th with apocalypse d-weapon rules)
i play Ordo Reductor from book one betrayal and i've found it to be quite balanced - i play against eldar, imperial guard, dark angels CSM [khorne], tau and 'nids.
i end up with quite a small force that's really well equipped! every time i've played another HH force i've been shot up pretty bad but that was largely because the people who had built the lists were power-playing so hard that they thought that they weren't power playing.

overall, if you build a HH list with the aim of making the next death-star it WILL seem op. and you'll be as guilty as sin., if you build a HH list with the intention of playing out a battle in the ashen wastes of isstvan3 then you'll have a battle you'll remember for the rest of your life.

i think that the HH series of models attracts a certain type of gamer who shudders at the mention of "forging the narrative..." but essentially does exactly that.

The warp is a strange place if things can emerge millennia after entering legionaries arriving too late to the battle would probably have occurred a couple of times since the heresy. Anyone ever use that as background for a Chapter?

Better or not, it's manlier than 40K. Duking out with LEGIONES Astartes gives people testosterone poisoning.

I still think its pretty even although my local group still begs to differ. I brought my Iron Warriors against a DE force this past weekend and he won by one VP. Had the game lasted another turn I likely would have killed him off as I had a five man missile havoc squad, a rhino with a havoc launcher, and a Spartan with one HP left on the board vs a lone archon and an archon warlord with two trueborn and he was going for the relic. We also each had aircraft in the wrong locations as well about to go off the board given another turn. We both were playing all comers lists as we didn't know we were playing each other until we showed up.

But it was a good example of how even the forces are, just different. My grrrr moment, five rounds of combat and my powerfists could not get through a shadowfield, even on the charge, meanwhile I rolled a one all but one combat phase. So if anything 40k is OP vs 30k

Holy crap jinking is powerful this edition. I never got through a jink save once the entire game outside my Sicarian who ignores them.

There is actually room for 'Crons on Legions: the Imperial Fists probably fought them on the world that would become known as Necromunda; once a prospering small human empire of about 5 systems linked through pre-human "gates" which traversed the warp in obviously artificial but stable routes. Upon encountering this civilization, the IFs asked for their Compliance, to which they countered with "why don't you join our Empire instead?"

You can imagine how that went.

In the end, once the human forces had been defeated, "Silver mechanical legions of no human design poured through the gates," or something to that effect, with the subsequent battle all but destroying what was left of the human civilzation, thus the chief world was rechristened Necromunda.

Certainly sounds like Necrons to me, or at least Canoptek constructs defending the Dolmen Gates, as introduced in the last codex. After all, after 65 million years of slumber, being off by 10,000 years in waking up is only a small variance.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Certainly sounds like Necrons to me, or at least Canoptek constructs defending the Dolmen Gates, as introduced in the last codex. After all, after 65 million years of slumber, being off by 10,000 years in waking up is only a small variance.

Especially if there's a war on. It's like if you want to sleep 15 minutes more but there's nuclear bombardments and orbital strikes on the floor above yours.

"... honey, get the broom."

The scary part is that the bits that the IF fought could've been just the broom taps... as it were.

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Exactly. I'm doing mine with the proper models but that's my preference, I wouldn't not play you if you had plastic marines or whatever. The plastic space marine vehicles are actually in the books, they're 'Mars pattern' I think, as opposed to the Deimos pattern FW ones.

The rules are a hell of a lot of fun, each legion plays differently, there is an absolute tonne of fun weapons/vehicle upgrades/equipment etc. I love it, price aside.

That's pretty elitist of you. They are on the same height and bases. Hell I would let someone run a lego army against me as long as it was the same dimensions.

I think you mis-read his post. He used a double negative, so WOULD play you if you had stand ins.