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RAW: does the CoB give Bolt Throwers rerolls to wound in the shooting phase?

EDIT: I'm revising the first post with what I believe is the correct conclusion. If you have a direct sourced quote which conflicts, please share it!

From BRB: page 66: What Special Rules Does It Have?
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

BRB: page 108: The Crew
"When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."

BRB: page 109: Movement
"Remember that all distances are measured from the war machine model itself."

So the war machine and crew are distinct models. These models collectively are one unit.

in Warhammer - Dark Elves, pages 39 and 94 both agree that the crew have murderous prowess, while the war machine has "repeater bolt thrower". As a model does not have a special rule "unless stated otherwise", the bolt thrower model does not have murderous prowess.

The Cauldron of Blood: Strength of Khaine special rule on page 47 of warhammer - Dark Elves applies to "Friendly Models with the Murderous Prowess special rule..."

While "A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew" (BRB: page 108, The Crew), the bolt thrower Model (brb pg 109) does not have the murderous prowess special rule (DE pg 39,94) and gains no benefit from the CoB (DE pg 47).

This resolves the issue to my satisfaction. If anyone has a RAW sourced quote which throws a wrench into this interpretation I'd love to hear it. While I appreciate the fine art of debate as much as the next Dakkaite, I shall not further respond to this thread in the absence of such a quote. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

This is from a couple Army List discussion with thedarkavenger

I'm in the no camp, as follows:

My DE book says:

Reaper Bolt Thrower
Special Rules (Crew):
- Always Strikes First
- Hatred (High Elves)
- Murderous Prowess

Special Rules (Reaper Bolt Thrower):
- Repeater Bolt Thrower

The Cauldron has the special rule: Strength of Khaine, which grants rerolls to "Friendly models with the Murderous Prowess Special Rule..."

The warmachine rules are a little vague on whether the whole thing is one model or not, but there is a section under The Crew talking about removing a 'crew model' when the war machine suffers a wound.

This implies that crew are separate models, and while the bolt thrower uses their BS, I see no reason why the Cauldron would grant rerolls to the bolt thrower based on the rules of a different model.

TDA's response is as follows:

And yes, cauldrons do affect bolt throwers, as for shooting, they're a single models and the wording for murderous prowess is the model gets it.

The crew don't count for anything except wounds and combat. That's under the war machine section.

Then you have the Murderous prowess rule, which states that a model with this rule may reroll failed rolls of a 1 to wound.

The cauldron rule states that any model with murderous prowess may reroll all failed rolls to wound of a 1.

So if the crew don't count for anything except wounds and combat, why would they grant their special rule to the bolt thrower. I see nothing saying the bolt thrower and crew are a single model for purposes of shooting.

Dakka, have I missed something? If so, page reference please! Thanks!

I'm in the no camp.
The model is the bolt thrower, crewmen are tokens, not models.
You don't even have to put the crewmen on the table, and IIRC, by the rules you can't measure ranges to a token, to see if it's within 6" of the cauldron.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm in the no camp.
The model is the bolt thrower, crewmen are tokens, not models.
You don't even have to put the crewmen on the table, and IIRC, by the rules you can't measure ranges to a token, to see if it's within 6" of the cauldron.

So if they're not models, they don't get ASF in combat?

Pg. 108 of the war machine rules has the section: The Crew. This section describes removing "crew models" when the war machine suffers a wound.

So the crew are considered distinct models.

I went back through my war machine and bolt thrower BRB, and I still don't see anything supporting the claim that crew and war machine are treated as a single model for shooting, or that the war machine benefits from the Crew Models special rules. If anyone out there does have anything, Proide! (Page Reference or it doesn't exist)

aaaaaand now I've written 'crew' so many times it doesn't look like a real word anymore.

Isn't Murderous Prowess close combat only?


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Also, don't get into discussions with thedarkavenger. It's kinda pointless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't get into discussions with thedarkavenger. It's kinda pointless.

This time 100

Page 108: "The crew are only used to indicate the remaining number of wounds and number of attacks the war machine can make in close combat...."

notice that RaW the crew dont actually fight, you simply use the M/BS/WS/S/T/I/A/LD of the listed crew for the attacks made by the war machine. Unless the War machine has the stated special rule, you dont get benefits of special rules you think they should have

further: "if they are found to be blocking movement, or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter"

right there the BRB identifies them as a battlefield marker/counter....not a model

So they are makers/counters, but that doesn't mean that they aren't also models.
On the other hand, by RAW, the warmachine is making the attacks, not the crew, so no, you wouldn't get ASF or Murderous prowess.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
So they are makers/counters, but that doesn't mean that they aren't also models.
On the other hand, by RAW, the warmachine is making the attacks, not the crew, so no, you wouldn't get ASF or Murderous prowess.

Hooray for useless special rules? I doubt you'll find anyone who would actually claim mid-game that the crew can't use those rules. And if they DID, I'd have to label them TFG and walk away.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Isn't Murderous Prowess close combat only?

It is, but in typical lazy GW writing fashion, the Cauldron of Blood's "Strength of Khaine" rule doesn't make that distinction- it lets you fully reroll to wound if you're near the Cauldron and have MP.

FWIW, I'm in the "no" camp too. The crew have MP, not the bolt thrower. Same goes for Thorek and his Anvil, or the tomb guards with the Casket of Souls. They have special attacks that their war machine doesn't. Would you let Thorek's anvil destroy your magic items when it casts Wrath and Ruin (since his hammer doesn't specify that part is melee only)?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Isn't Murderous Prowess close combat only?


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Also, don't get into discussions with thedarkavenger. It's kinda pointless.

On the first point, Murderous Prowess and Strength of Khaine are separate rules. Strength of Khaine allows any model with murderous prowess to reroll all failed to-wound rolls. So even though MP is combat-specific, Strength of Khaine is not.

Further, unless I'm mistaken Murderous Prowess is written to be on the ENTIRE model, but within its own rules restricts the effect to only riders. However Strength of Khaine is, again, not the same rule and thus doesn't conform to the same restrictions.

All of this is essentially because Strength of Khaine is written poorly. It should append "...instead of only 1's" or something like that. This makes it clear that it is replacing the effect of Murderous Prowess, and that anything that would not otherwise have received the benefit of MP doesn't get the benefit of SoK.

However, per RAW there is no question that SoK allows you to reroll failed to-wound rolls on ranged attacks, mounts, and impact hits sadly. That's just the way the rule is written.

One avenue you could go down is to look at other special rules (that dont transfer, as MP doesnt say that it does either).

Take a dwarf cannon, with rune of burning. Do the crew get flaming attacks?

The skullcannon, does it benefit from its crews killing blow when it shoots?

AFAIC, there are two SEPARATE profiles that join to form one unit. The crew give certain characteristics to the warmachine, listed on BRB p108. at no point does it also say the warmachine uses any special rules of the crew.

In addition, when shooting, it is the warmachine that is shooting, using the crews BS. So its the machine doing the damage, and its the machines special rules (if any) that come into play, not the crews.

The crew give no characteristics. And yes, it's not the crew that fire. It's the war machine. And the only thing murderous prowess doesn't transfer to is mounts.

Sorry, but re-read the BRB for war machines, pg 108, top left paragraph. "You always use the M, WS, BS, S, I, A and Ld of the crew..."

Also, your point about MP not applying to mounts is moot. As per BRB pg 82, a special rule has to state otherwise for it to affect mount/rider etc. So MP has to specifically state 'This rule transfers to mounts' for the mount to ever get use of it.

MP doesnt transfer, and since the bolt thrower has its own heading with 'special rules' in the armybook, if its not listed there it doesnt get it.

So what does this mean for darkshards and the Cauldron since Mp affects melee attacks

 japehlio wrote:
Sorry, but re-read the BRB for war machines, pg 108, top left paragraph. "You always use the M, WS, BS, S, I, A and Ld of the crew..."

Also, your point about MP not applying to mounts is moot. As per BRB pg 82, a special rule has to state otherwise for it to affect mount/rider etc. So MP has to specifically state 'This rule transfers to mounts' for the mount to ever get use of it.

MP doesnt transfer, and since the bolt thrower has its own heading with 'special rules' in the armybook, if its not listed there it doesnt get it.

Fair enough, I made a mistake about the war machines.


But, you're using a specific example for a troop type to blanket rule it for everything. There is nothing in the war machine section which tells you that special rules don't transfer. And as such, the entire model gets it. As per the wording for the Murderous Prowess special rule.

 Arthas367 wrote:
So what does this mean for darkshards and the Cauldron since Mp affects melee attacks

No. The Cauldron of Blood triggers for ALL failed rulls to wound. This affects shooting and magic.

The obvious intent of this rule was for it to apply only to close combat attacks, however the very clear wording and lack of an FAQ means that RAW it affects shooting and magic as well.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Further, unless I'm mistaken Murderous Prowess is written to be on the ENTIRE model, but within its own rules restricts the effect to only riders. However Strength of Khaine is, again, not the same rule and thus doesn't conform to the same restrictions.

In the case of bolt throwers, you are mistaken. The crew have murderous prowess, the bolt thrower only has 'repeater bolt thrower'.


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 thedarkavenger wrote:
The crew give no characteristics. And yes, it's not the crew that fire. It's the war machine. And the only thing murderous prowess doesn't transfer to is mounts.

Again, the bolt throwers don't have murderous prowess. The Crew do. They are separate models. Your examples applies to things like cavalry, which are single models (1 horse + rider on one base).


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 thedarkavenger wrote:


But, you're using a specific example for a troop type to blanket rule it for everything. There is nothing in the war machine section which tells you that special rules don't transfer. And as such, the entire model gets it. As per the wording for the Murderous Prowess special rule.

Which model has murderous prowess again? Oh right, the crew model. Which is not the bolt thrower model. Unless there's a page reference that says otherwise. In which case I will happily and publicly retract my point.


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japehlio, I think you and I are on the same page. Neat!


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 quickfuze wrote:

Page 108: "The crew are only used to indicate the remaining number of wounds and number of attacks the war machine can make in close combat...."

notice that RaW the crew dont actually fight, you simply use the M/BS/WS/S/T/I/A/LD of the listed crew for the attacks made by the war machine. Unless the War machine has the stated special rule, you dont get benefits of special rules you think they should have

further: "if they are found to be blocking movement, or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter"

right there the BRB identifies them as a battlefield marker/counter....not a model

Page 108 also identifies Crew Models under the section titled 'The Crew'. So I agree with HawaiiMatt that they are both counters and models.

kooshlord wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Further, unless I'm mistaken Murderous Prowess is written to be on the ENTIRE model, but within its own rules restricts the effect to only riders. However Strength of Khaine is, again, not the same rule and thus doesn't conform to the same restrictions.

In the case of bolt throwers, you are mistaken. The crew have murderous prowess, the bolt thrower only has 'repeater bolt thrower'.


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 thedarkavenger wrote:
The crew give no characteristics. And yes, it's not the crew that fire. It's the war machine. And the only thing murderous prowess doesn't transfer to is mounts.

Again, the bolt throwers don't have murderous prowess. The Crew do. They are separate models. Your examples applies to things like cavalry, which are single models (1 horse + rider on one base).


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 thedarkavenger wrote:


But, you're using a specific example for a troop type to blanket rule it for everything. There is nothing in the war machine section which tells you that special rules don't transfer. And as such, the entire model gets it. As per the wording for the Murderous Prowess special rule.

Which model has murderous prowess again? Oh right, the crew model. Which is not the bolt thrower model. Unless there's a page reference that says otherwise. In which case I will happily and publicly retract my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
japehlio, I think you and I are on the same page. Neat!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 quickfuze wrote:

Page 108: "The crew are only used to indicate the remaining number of wounds and number of attacks the war machine can make in close combat...."

notice that RaW the crew dont actually fight, you simply use the M/BS/WS/S/T/I/A/LD of the listed crew for the attacks made by the war machine. Unless the War machine has the stated special rule, you dont get benefits of special rules you think they should have

further: "if they are found to be blocking movement, or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter"

right there the BRB identifies them as a battlefield marker/counter....not a model

Page 108 also identifies Crew Models under the section titled 'The Crew'. So I agree with HawaiiMatt that they are both counters and models.

The war machine section also states that the crew aren't ever used, except for their BS and as wound markers. They're purely aesthetic.

As such, the wording for Prowess states that the model gets it. The bolt thrower isn't a mount, it's the model. It doesn't say that the rule is crew only.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


As such, the wording for Prowess states that the model gets it. The bolt thrower isn't a mount, it's the model. It doesn't say that the rule is crew only.

Prowess wording states that the model gets it. The crew are distinct models, as described under The Crew, page 108, BRB. The rule is model only, applies to the crew as per their entry in the DE book, and the crew are distinct models as per the BRB. Therefore the bolt thrower doesn't get murderous prowess.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


As such, the wording for Prowess states that the model gets it. The bolt thrower isn't a mount, it's the model. It doesn't say that the rule is crew only.

Prowess wording states that the model gets it. The crew are distinct models, as described under The Crew, page 108, BRB. The rule is model only, and the crew are distinct models. Therefore the bolt thrower doesn't get murderous prowess.

Quote that rule please. The first page of the war machine section states that the crew aren't models. I'll get a page reference and quote when I get home.

If you can point out to me where it states that the crew are separate models to the war machine, I'll concede my point.

Page 108 of BRB, in the box labelled 'THE CREW':

"...When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model." The emphasis is mine. I've not been able to find the word 'token' thus far.

Edit: for punctuation and to fix a tag.

TDA, Manfred beat me to it. Thanks Manfred!

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Page 108 of BRB, in the box labelled 'THE CREW':

"...When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model." The emphasis is mine. I've not been able to find the word 'token' thus far.

Edit: for punctuation and to fix a tag.

That would be grand if page 108 didn't explicitly state that we treat the war machine as the extent of the unit. And that we only use the crew to indicate the number of wounds and attacks it can make in combat.

If you argue that the crew don't pass the special rules on, then it doesn't get Murderous Prowess in combat either, as the crew aren't used in combat either.

So. To clarify. The war machine is the unit. It's a single model. The model gains Murderous Prowess.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Quote that rule please. The first page of the war machine section states that the crew aren't models. I'll get a page reference and quote when I get home.

If you can point out to me where it states that the crew are separate models to the war machine, I'll concede my point.

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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Page 108 of BRB, in the box labelled 'THE CREW':

"...When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model." The emphasis is mine. I've not been able to find the word 'token' thus far.

Edit: for punctuation and to fix a tag.

EDIT: quoting attribution issues.

I have him on ignore, but I'm going to assume quoting the book didn't sway him. I'm not sure why I bothered, since he is incapable of processing evidence.

So when I ask for evidence that the crew are models, you say "When they die, they're treated as models." I can treat people like dogs, that doesn't make them dogs.

The rules state that the war machine is the model. The crew are only treated as models when they die.

For rule and game purposes, the bolt thrower has no crew. It is a single model.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
So when I ask for evidence that the crew are models, you say "When they die, they're treated as models." I can treat people like dogs, that doesn't make them dogs.

The rules state that the war machine is the model. The crew are only treated as models when they die.

For rule and game purposes, the bolt thrower has no crew. It is a single model.

Straw man argument. The actual quote is "... remove a crew model." No 'treated as' here.


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 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. To clarify. The war machine is the unit. It's a single model. The model gains Murderous Prowess.

The war machine is the unit: Truth
It's a single model: I have not seen a direct quote that supports this contention. Your reference to page 108 doesn't actually say that the crew aren't models, and Manfred's direct quote says they are.

Arguing with him is pointless; he has previously shown an inability to process evidence except to twist the evidence to fit his pre-determined viewpoint, as well an inability to concretely grasp the mechanics of English (which is on display here).

I only quoted the book to be helpful, but I see now how misguided that was.

From BRB: page 66: What Special Rules Does It Have?
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

BRB: page 108: The Crew
"When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."

BRB: page 109: Movement
"Remember that all distances are measured from the war machine model itself."

So the war machine and crew are distinct models. These models collectively are one unit.

in Warhammer - Dark Elves, pages 39 and 94 both agree that the crew have murderous prowess, while the war machine has "repeater bolt thrower". As a model does not have a special rule "unless stated otherwise", the bolt thrower model does not have murderous prowess.

The Cauldron of Blood: Strength of Khaine special rule on page 47 of warhammer - Dark Elves applies to "Friendly Models with the Murderous Prowess special rule..."

While "A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew" (BRB: page 108, The Crew), the bolt thrower Model (brb pg 109) does not have the murderous prowess special rule (DE pg 39,94) and gains no benefit from the CoB (DE pg 47).

This resolves the issue to my satisfaction. If anyone has a RAW sourced quote which throws a wrench into this interpretation I'd love to hear it. While I appreciate the fine art of debate as much as the next Dakkaite, I shall not further respond to this thread in the absence of such a quote. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

- Edit to correct book reference.

kooshlord wrote:
From BRB: page 66: What Special Rules Does It Have?
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

BRB: page 108: The Crew
"When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."

BRB: page 109: Movement
"Remember that all distances are measured from the war machine model itself."

So the war machine and crew are distinct models. These models collectively are one unit.

in Warhammer - Dark Elves, pages 39 and 94 both agree that the crew have murderous prowess, while the war machine has "repeater bolt thrower". As a model does not have a special rule "unless stated otherwise", the bolt thrower model does not have murderous prowess.

The Cauldron of Blood: Strength of Khaine special rule on page 47 of warhammer - Dark Elves applies to "Friendly Models with the Murderous Prowess special rule..."

While "A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew" (BRB: page 108, The Crew), the bolt thrower Model (brb pg 109) does not have the murderous prowess special rule (DE pg 39,94) and gains no benefit from the CoB (BE pg 47).

This resolves the issue to my satisfaction. If anyone has a RAW sourced quote which throws a wrench into this interpretation I'd love to hear it. While I appreciate the fine art of debate as much as the next Dakkaite, I shall not further respond to this thread in the absence of such a quote. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

You are ignoring half of the crew entry. All of that is irrelevent, as the war machine is the extent of the model. As per the rules.

Again, the model is the bolt thrower itself. The rule affects the model as a whole. It's not like hatred, which specifically affects the elf only. It's for the entire model.