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I've been aware of 40K for years but only played for a short while during 4th edition. A friend recently started getting into it again and I've discovered there are several busy places to game near me. I'm ready to start collecting, modeling, painting and playing again but I'm insufferably picky about my army.

Just googled up a WH40K forum to ask for general input on army +/-detachment selection. I like monsters/daemons of all sizes and I like rifle troops so I'm thinking some combo of Chaos Space Marines / Chaos Daemons. I love what I'm reading in the codex for both of those, especially Khorne.

I also have the codex for Orkz and Tyranids but I'm not liking them as much as Chaos. Maybe Daemons with an Ork detachment to give them more shooting, cherry picking the Orkz with BS3 and ammo grots? Open to any other army suggestions except Tau. I might consider Kroot if they come highly recommended, but I'm just not a fan of the style of the Tau suits/tanks and don't want to model and paint them. Very interested in Necrons but I hear they're kind of over played.

Q's
1) I -LOVE- the idea of counter attack on rifle troops now that we have this overwatch stuff going on. Can you tell me what other troops, in any army, have or can get counter attack besides with marks of Khorne?

2) Should I care about unweildly weapons when arming low initiative shooty rifle troops (3 or 4)? I'm not seeing the difference between attacking second and attacking at initiative step 1. Seems like either way the specialist close combat troops in enemy armies will go first if it comes to that.

CHAOS IS THE ONLY TRUE ANSWER

1) Counter attack is kind of rare, but in all honesty, not that great. You're either charging other units, or you're trying to keep from being charged.

2) No, not really. Most troops are I4 or higher, with the exception of I believe IG troops and Tau.

Honestly, based on what you're looking for, Chaos Space Marines with some Daemons would be how I would go. CSM on their own can be good, and Daemons can add some extra craziness.

I don't have the allies chart on me, but I don't believe it would be worth it to take an attachment of Orkz.

 Robisagg wrote:
CHAOS IS THE ONLY TRUE ANSWER

Heresy!!!!

Being a DA player, it pains me to see someone choosing the path of chaos, but it sounds like they're what you're looking for. Do you like the sound of khorne? If not, Nurgle is a pretty good choice too.

The only other counter attack I can think of is space wolves maybe? I feel like some of their units have it or can get it from something.

CSM and/or Cultists w/marks of Khorne. Bloodletters. Love the troops but that's as far as I get because as much as I like Khorne's troops I'm just not feeling the Khorne leadership at all. So many points... That's why I started looking at Orkz. Thinking some kind of sorcerer for another god hanging out in the back with obliterators or havocs. Maybe just heralds with the bloodletters.

CSM's take the objectives. Bloodletters and heralds deepstrike to make a mess. Leadership in the back with the long guns. Some kind of cheap fast attack to fill in gaps and run interference?

I'd say go for the faction whichever fluff you like the most. There are alwayz some decent builds and options. CSM + Daemons work well.

Well, wanted to run CSM in the first place but than i accidentally 4-th edition codex orks.

I dont think I've ever heard someone say they will pick up some Orks for their shooting.

But the Grots with the Mek Gunz can be good from what I hear. I usually end up winning games because of my assaulting though.

If you like rifle troops then Necrons will be good. And i would only worry about them being overplayed if they are overplayed in your area.

 Icculus wrote:
I dont think I've ever heard someone say they will pick up some Orks for their shooting.

That's obviously the only way to play orks

for counterattacking rifle type infantry, grey hunters are probably the best well known for this.

An army of grey hunters is still fairly competitive though it doesn't give you the craziness that daemons offer up.

Ask yourself some additional questions -

Do you like elite armies or hordes of guys?

Do you like sturdy troops or just hard hitting?

Do you like fast troops or slow but sturdy?

Do you like vehicles, monster creatures, or infantry/bikes/jump packs etc?

There's a competitive build with all of the above but you should try to figure out what you enjoy the best. Think back to some video games that you play. What kind of classes do you like better? Tanky? Shooty? Magic? stealthy? It'll help you realize your personal tastes.

Also, after you get a better idea of what you enjoy, try looking at some of the battle reports we have in droves here on dakka. It'll give you alot of ideas on what the pluses and minuses of what you are going for will entail.

While it's alot of time researching, warhammer is a slowish hobby and a prudent study of what to buy,build,paint which can take weeks or if you are slow like me, months to years to complete building. Best not to waste too much time at the bench for something you end up not using. *looks sadly at his dakka wartracks that haven't been used in like a year*

Ugh... Just save time. Go out and buy 5 Wave Serpants and minimal eldar troops/Fire dragons

The only other counter attack I can think of is space wolves maybe? I feel like some of their units have it or can get it from something.

Basically all of them. Speaking as someone who's building up a small fluffy SW allied detachment, they don't like to get hit without hitting back

Almost all space wolves have Counter Attack. Ihave about 8000 pts of them. "1.equip them with flamers 2. shoot everything rapid fire 3. let the opponent charge you 4. profit." Of course thats only if your friend is playing fluffy. Otherwise its "1.Put your units on the board. 2. your friend puts Tau or Eldar on the board. 3. Take your units off the board"

 sudojoe wrote:
f
Ask yourself some additional questions -

Do you like elite armies or hordes of guys?

Do you like sturdy troops or just hard hitting?

Do you like fast troops or slow but sturdy?

Do you like vehicles, monster creatures, or infantry/bikes/jump packs etc?

I used to think around 2,000 points, but my friend is talking 1,500ish now.

I like various squads of elite/high end troops. Not super low numbers like a Deathwing terminator army or anything, but not 150 boyz or guants either. Somewhere just above the middle. Chaos Space Marines are perfect. Bloodletters are great. Cultists are fine as something different that I could have fun modeling, just not a max squad and no upgrades beyond autoguns and marks.

Then I like what we used to call a spam list of something medium sized. Maybe a greater daemon and four daemon princes (3 HS + allied CSM HQ) with minimal/no upgrades and all the same god. I think I read that Space Marines can run some kind of tech marine leader and then go six dreadnauts because they're two kinds of choices on the force org chart, HS and Elites I guess? Orks with 3x min squads of Nobz taking those big vehicles as dedicated transports in elites slots, plus three more of those vehicles just empty as HS.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Ugh... Just save time. Go out and buy 5 Wave Serpants and minimal eldar troops/Fire dragons

Then after a few games shelve them and play something else.

Thanks for all your replies!

Going to stop by the GW and peek in the Necron and Tau (just Kroot) codex. Learning a lot real fast reading around this board, but I don't see myself coming to a real decision any time soon... Going to just field a fun army to get myself started up in the hobby and meeting people/playing.

Master of the Forge -> Dreadnaught spam.

I used to think around 2,000 points, but my friend is talking 1,500ish now.

I like various squads of elite/high end troops. Not super low numbers like a Deathwing terminator army or anything, but not 150 boyz or guants either. Somewhere just above the middle. Chaos Space Marines are perfect. Bloodletters are great. Cultists are fine as something different that I could have fun modeling, just not a max squad and no upgrades beyond autoguns and marks.

Then I like what we used to call a spam list of something medium sized. Maybe a greater daemon and four daemon princes (3 HS + allied CSM HQ) with minimal/no upgrades and all the same god. I think I read that Space Marines can run some kind of tech marine leader and then go six dreadnauts because they're two kinds of choices on the force org chart, HS and Elites I guess? Orks with 3x min squads of Nobz taking those big vehicles as dedicated transports in elites slots, plus three more of those vehicles just empty as HS.

hehehe sounds like you want to go the flying circus route, that's the 5 flying monstrous creatures of daemon prince list. Quite fun and I ran it at 1500 though you can't really squeeze in much else in there so not much chance to fit in any allied CSM. It's been nerfed somewhat since last edition but still viable in my opinion. CSM sounds like it'd be a good fit for you though if you want to build around the elite infantry. Maybe just have 1-2 FMC's in there and focus the rest of the points on marines.

I would recommend that you could ally Imperial Guard in with Chaos Space marines. The platoons of guard won't have Counter Attack but you can get up to 100 overwatch shots if an enemy unit charges a platoon blob of 50 Guardsmen. Besides, Chaos loves to corrupt the forces of man.

Picked up the imp guard codex. Skipped Necrons because it said 2011 in the cover and everything else is hardcover so I assume that's going to have a new one soon.

Wussed out on SW and Tau... I really don't want to model/paint them at all. I'm very happy with the Iron Fists rules and a regular SM list while I set up the 'perfect' (for me) CSM and/or Orkz and/or CD list.. Might take something from IG as a detachment with the SM or do a small IG army later. I've always liked them but always had something else in front of them I liked more. No IG army feels like something left undone at this point.

Starting to feel a little like my eyes are bigger than my stomach now, but if I"m having fun with the hobby it can't hurt to set up tiny little armies for what interests me and expand on the ones I like best, right? Right? Wait, why am I broke. X.X

What about Tau? Does anyone play as Tau? Or are they just junk in WH40k? I've also not seen many Eldar and 0 Dark Eldar players. All CSM; Sm; Daemons; Ork, and everyone saying Ultramarines are the vanilla, but it seems more like SM BA's are the vanilla.

Heck, I still haven't chosen, just trollin'... Got it narrowed down to, Imperial Fists, Soul Drinkers, or Minotaurs. -_-

 Orkzwuzmade4rokkn wrote:
What about Tau? Does anyone play as Tau? Or are they just junk in WH40k? I've also not seen many Eldar and 0 Dark Eldar players. All CSM; Sm; Daemons; Ork, and everyone saying Ultramarines are the vanilla, but it seems more like SM BA's are the vanilla.

Heck, I still haven't chosen, just trollin'... Got it narrowed down to, Imperial Fists, Soul Drinkers, or Minotaurs. -_-

First I ruled out Eldar and Tau because they are a bunch of pansy ass space elves in rainbowdash camo and little blue otaku gits who think they're ub3r l337 because they made it through their shooting phase without getting carpel tunnel.

Second, SM are attractive for simplicity both in the hobby and on the field. What happens is you pick them just to get something you can play with set up quickly and get some modeling practice in. Then you find out there's a chapter or a special rule or a character somewhere who goes with what you like. Next thing you know you're picking units to fill in gaps/weaknesses from their surprisingly flexible list. Different people might go through this differently but with SM the person's interest follows some kind of a progression that starts with simple and gets deeper. Everything else I look at is like trying to start from scratch and go to a full strategy in one go.

I'm going Iron Hands for now. Probably Khorne + Orkz at some point, but what kind of Khorne and how many Orkz is still to be determined.

Mostly though I'm happy because after making two threads here I ended up looking at pretty much every army and I at least know what I do and don't want to play now. I could change my mind six more times, but I won't waste any purchases now. I know what armies I want to own and what bits of them I like best. I might end up with 5,000 points of Iron Hands or I might end up with 1,000 points of five different armies but I'll be having fun with it.

Well at least you're more decisive than I am! Haha. I'm still trying to kick myself into gear and just make a choice already. I'm still really leaning to an Imperial Fists army. Just scared as hell of the yellow haha. Orkz would be really fun.

And yeah the Tau to seem to be pretty...frail..lol. I just like their Broadsides and Firewarriors for some reason. But I'm pretty sure it's going to be: Imperial Fists; CSM Emperors Children; and finally an Ork Army (they make me laugh, and a green tide sounds like a moral shaker)

Statictician wrote:
I

Q's
1) I -LOVE- the idea of counter attack on rifle troops now that we have this overwatch stuff going on. Can you tell me what other troops, in any army, have or can get counter attack besides with marks of Khorne?

2) Should I care about unweildly weapons when arming low initiative shooty rifle troops (3 or 4)? I'm not seeing the difference between attacking second and attacking at initiative step 1. Seems like either way the specialist close combat troops in enemy armies will go first if it comes to that.

1: Counter Attack is generally a khorne or space wolves thing, it's not very common otherwise.

2: It doesn't matter that much. A chaos lord normally doesn't like going last with a powerfist, so give him a lighting claw as well so he has options, for normal dudes just pick one or the other.