Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the DV set gives us chaos cultists. Half of them are ranged, half of them are cc. The ranged are already underpowered as is, but can be used as cheap as chips obsec troops. The cc-ones really do suck though - at I3, I'd rather have an autogun than an additional attack.

Anyways, what I thought was giving these guys MoT. At 4 points a piece, they are crap. But at 5 points a piece with a 6++ save, they can suddenly take saving throws against bolter fire. Suddenly you can use them in an aggressive approach to screen your more valuable targets and they wont drop (nearly) like flies when fired at by enemy bolters.

Then there's the MoN, but at twice the cost I think its only suited for ranged cultists.

You can also give them MoK and run em in blobs with their pistols. 4 attacks each on the charge is pretty cool, especially when led by a CC monster like Kharn or something.

Failing that, you could go with IA:13's zombie hordes, which IIRC gives you 4+ FnP. Or good ol' typhus and friends styled zombie cultists.

Cultists are wonderful in mellee as a tarpit when made fearless. I'd forego marks this way, however. Their main purpose is run forward an imperial knight or smashfether screaming madly, dying in droves but not letting him go for the whole game.

MoT is worst mark on cultists. You should always be able to get them a 5+ cover save making the MoT useless most of the time.

Pretty much MoK blobs or nothing

The problem with MoT is that increases durability by 1/6 for the cost of 1/5 model. Means an extra cultist is generally a better option. And it doesn't stack with cover.

However, there are a few situations when MoT is better than an extra cultist.

When you have a spread out blob that has charged in mellee and you want better odds of winning combat and sweeping the enemy having lost less models resulting in more strikes and less casualties on your part. But in all fairness, i don't see cultists sweeping someone too often.

Another time is when the enemy ability hits the whole squad. But those are rare and are a super waste if used on cultists in the first place.

And certainly, durability helps when marching forward cause you're not pushed back that far with casualties from the front. But 1/6 increase for cultists will not matter in the vast majority of games.

So, unless you want fluff or have something in your mind like a blob of khornate cultists with zealot charging something to death, probably buffed with iron hand to add insanity or against an enemy cursed with rending, you're better off with just unmarked.

But the idea of khornate cultists with rending or s5...is hilarious. But once again, it's hard to tell if marked would be better here or not.

35 MoK cultists with Khârn = 140 attacks on the charge, with Hatred and Fearless!

140 attacks = 105 hits = 52/35/17 wounds to GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (or 37 hits against something Invisible, which is Awesome!)

GeneralCael wrote:
35 MoK cultists with Khârn = 140 attacks on the charge, with Hatred and Fearless!

140 attacks = 105 hits = 52/35/17 wounds to GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (or 37 hits against something Invisible, which is Awesome!)

Or, take 24 MoK cultists with IoW + Kharn and put them in a Spartan Assault Tank with Auloth the Primordial Iterator LoR. In addition to Hatred and Fearless, they also get Fear and FNP as long as they stay within 12 inches of the Spartan. Plus the Spartan's guns become pinning.

Tactical squads kill an average of 5 cultists per turn shooting, so you would probably get the same actual number of attacks as if you were footslogging.

 techsoldaten wrote:

GeneralCael wrote:
35 MoK cultists with Khârn = 140 attacks on the charge, with Hatred and Fearless!

140 attacks = 105 hits = 52/35/17 wounds to GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (or 37 hits against something Invisible, which is Awesome!)

Or, take 24 MoK cultists with IoW + Kharn and put them in a Spartan Assault Tank with Auloth the Primordial Iterator LoR. In addition to Hatred and Fearless, they also get Fear and FNP as long as they stay within 12 inches of the Spartan. Plus the Spartan's guns become pinning.

Tactical squads kill an average of 5 cultists per turn shooting, so you would probably get the same actual number of attacks as if you were footslogging.

Can cultists get icons? I didn't think they could.

If you are considering cultists, take a helcult, It gives the cultists fearless and hatred (once the helbrute dies). Handy for when someone extra fighty challenges your lord out of the squad.

wtnind wrote:

Can cultists get icons? I didn't think they could.

If you are considering cultists, take a helcult, It gives the cultists fearless and hatred (once the helbrute dies). Handy for when someone extra fighty challenges your lord out of the squad.

I think you are right. Damn. That would have been a nasty combination.

 koooaei wrote:
The problem with MoT is that increases durability by 1/6 for the cost of 1/5 model. Means an extra cultist is generally a better option. And it doesn't stack with cover.

However, there are a few situations when MoT is better than an extra cultist.

When you have a spread out blob that has charged in mellee and you want better odds of winning combat and sweeping the enemy having lost less models resulting in more strikes and less casualties on your part. But in all fairness, i don't see cultists sweeping someone too often.

Another time is when the enemy ability hits the whole squad. But those are rare and are a super waste if used on cultists in the first place.

And certainly, durability helps when marching forward cause you're not pushed back that far with casualties from the front. But 1/6 increase for cultists will not matter in the vast majority of games.[...]

Unless you have a Herald of Tzeentch giving them a 4++

3++ (MoT + Forewarning) is good but I can think of a lot of models id rather buff up than 35 cultists (lord with spawn for example).

Even then id rather give them MoK ( with only the 4++), or drop the herald (and the marks) and take another 30 cultists!

GeneralCael wrote:
35 MoK cultists with Khârn = 140 attacks on the charge, with Hatred and Fearless!

140 attacks = 105 hits = 52/35/17 wounds to GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (or 37 hits against something Invisible, which is Awesome!)

It's a rare day when you get all 35 in combat. And an almost 0 chance to get all of them striking. Expect 10-15 to strike at best.

 koooaei wrote:

GeneralCael wrote:
35 MoK cultists with Khârn = 140 attacks on the charge, with Hatred and Fearless!

140 attacks = 105 hits = 52/35/17 wounds to GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (or 37 hits against something Invisible, which is Awesome!)

It's a rare day when you get all 35 in combat. And an almost 0 chance to get all of them striking. Expect 10-15 to strike at best.

Possibly, but feel free to bring something else with somewhat of a foreward threat-factor. They are not supposed to work solo

Sure thing. I'm just pointing out the math is wrong. It's like counting the greentide damage output based on model count.

I wouldn't take marks, only for the reason because by the time they get in range to do actual damage (Close combat, forget those wimpy BB guns, they do nothing), only 10 or so are still alive. Lets look at each mark though, anyway, just for goofs.

MoN- Going up to T4 for 2 points each. That means you can have 20 cultists or 10 cultists with MoN.
Pros of taking the naked 20:
-5 deaths required for leadership check
-10 extra wounds
-30 extra attacks on a charge
Cons of taking the naked 20:
-wounded on a 2+ by Str 5 rather than Str 6 shots (How many Str 6 shots is your opponent shooting at a group of 20 cultists????)

MoT- Getting a 6++ for 1 point each. Your choice: one more cultists, or four 6++ saves? For math's sake, lets say 12 6++ saves or 3 cultists.
Would you rather have the chance to probably save 2 cultists out of 12 wounds, or just have 3 more cultists to begin with?

MoK- 2 points each for an extra attack on a charge? I mean if they all get into combat, hell yeah, but that ain't happening. Don't even need to do the math here.

MoS- Getting lazy here, I'll just say probably not.

MoK is not bad. There is really only 2 tactically sound ways to use cultists. 1) hide them behind LoS blockers and get on an objective when you need them there. 2) keep them in reserves before hiding them...

3) is not a tactically sound approach but is fun. ie Run them with a combat character or in a helcult and charge stuff with them.

All three of these uses can benefit from taking a flamer and MoK. In the first two cases sometimes an opponent will snatch or block an objective with a mobile but weak unit, such as an eldar jetbike unit or kroot. In this fairly common situation your most reliable way to remove that unit is to charge it. This is the most reliable for several reasons 1) you get 2d6 extra movement to get on the objective, 2) you get 2 rounds of assault for every round of shooting, 3) assault morale checks are much easier to get enemies to flee, and 4) you "ignore" cover, you objectives should definitely be in cover if you were depending on a unit of cultists to take and hold it.

What all this means is that making the unit better in assault can be well worth it. You should not sacrifice taking a sicaran or giving your supped up combat lord a 4++ for it but if you have extra points this could win you an occasional game. IME the CC/pistol setup is actually a game winner while the autoguns rarely accomplish anything that matters.

 ansacs wrote:
MoK is not bad. There is really only 2 tactically sound ways to use cultists. 1) hide them behind LoS blockers and get on an objective when you need them there. 2) keep them in reserves before hiding them...

3) is not a tactically sound approach but is fun. ie Run them with a combat character or in a helcult and charge stuff with them.

There's another super-useful thing you can do with cultists.
4) Helcult + a Hellton of fearless cultists.
You run in circles around imperial knights, smashfethers and shut them out of play.

Cultists are usually either naked min squads to satisfy force org or Nurgle to camp close objectives with a cover save. I've tried the fearless blob w/ Dark Apostle but found it unsatisfactory. There's also zombie blobs but I haven't tried those.

 koooaei wrote:
There's another super-useful thing you can do with cultists.
4) Helcult + a Hellton of fearless cultists.
You run in circles around imperial knights, smashfethers and shut them out of play.

"run in circles around" a movement 12" unit with a movement 6" unit? Also an imperial knight can and will average 10-30 kills an assault phase with only the stomps. The variability actually being the more models you bring, the more fit under the stomp marker.

You can definitely use the helcult for board control. However it is only really good at occupying space and tarpitting. It also cannot tarpit a lot of the units you most want to. The imperial knight would require amazing luck to tarpit at all (ironically crusaders and tactical squads tend to work best for tarpitting knights). Smashfethers usually comes as a 2+ save on a bike command squad or at the least a bike unit. This means a bunch of extra attacks/shooting and usually a way to bounce out of combat (GoI or hit and run). Wraithknights are your ideal target but if the CWE player is paying attention then they should be able to shoot you cultists off the board, not to mention that they can actually just sit the waveserpents in front of the cultists and block their movement if you don't throw support in. This strategy is fun and works well enough against infantry based lists but the problem with cultists is that they don't get access to grenades and thus have nothing to use against vehicles and walkers, the helcult is even fearless so you cannot run away and can only tarpit. To make a unit of cultists scary to all targets you need an IC to stick in it...but once you do that the cultist unit becomes expensive and a worthwhile target to focus on and annihilate.

I constantly play against IK. A squad of 20 boyz with a nob can more or less reliably tarpit a knight for 2-4 phases depending on how lucky he is with stomps. Sure, if he constantly rolls 3-s on d3, he'll clear you out in 2-3 phases. Cultists are WAY more point effective at tarpitting than boyz and don't have ld problems. Spread out in the first place and you'll minimise stomp damage. It works.

And 12' movement is not a life saver when there's a squad of 30+ madmen spread out running for you 6+d6 every turn. They're not much slower on average.

When the enemy shoots at cultists they've allready payed off.