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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 00:00:05
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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played an unbound game against a marine player the other week, and he brought a load of different units (we play highlander unbound) but decided to pick and choose chapter tactics for each unit in order to benefit most - so he had tank hunting devastators, tanks with it will not die, and combi-flamers on sternguard that were twin-linked due to salamanders.
His list seemed to be a detachment of iron fists, and then tacked on the salamanders and the tank hunters one as well.
Is this actually a legal way to do it? it seems a bit abusive.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 00:03:08
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Welcome to unbound
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 00:17:31
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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When choosing a Space Marine Detachment, choose one of the following Chapters listed in this section - Black Library. Unbound Armies do not select Detachments, so at no point is it possible to assign a Chapter to said Detachment. If your opponent tries to claim the 'Primary Detachment' counts, remind them that the above errata removed the words 'Primary Detachment' from the Rule for a reason. Given that other Rules do not work if you consider Primary Detachment to be an 'official detachment,' in fact selecting a Warlord would make every Battle-forged Army illegal if that was the case, it is nothing more then a title that triggers only Rules that specify Primary Detachment. Besides, even if it was enough to trigger the Chapter Tactic Rule, every Model from that Codex belongs to the single Primary Detachment it still is not possible to pick and choose Chapters between the Units. So rest assured, you will not have to face that again as you are better informed as to why it is illegal even in an Unbound Army....
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 00:25:36
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 00:25:51
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Jinx remember in unbound all units that share the same faction as your Warlord form a primary detachment. So if your playing unbound and using marines you can select CTs if and only if your Warlord is a SM and then all codex marine units in the army must have the same CTs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 00:41:48
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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FlingitNow, It is correct that all Models from the same Codex become part of the Primary Detachment in an Unbound army, but has anyone proven that 'Primary Detachment' is a Detachment? I understand that it has the word 'detachment' in it's name but in the same way that a 'Heavy Flamer' is not a Heavy Weapon this can easily be nothing more then a Title with the word Detachment with in. I have commented on it before, but the concept that the Primary Detachment is an official Detachment has always caused issues within the Rules. For example: However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment makes it illegal to have a Battle-forged Army as Units belong simultaneously to the Primary Detachment and the detachment they where originally chosen to fill. That is before we even question what the Restrictions and Benefits of the Primary Detachment are, or what Force Organization Charts are legal for it and every other Rule Interaction which shows Primary Detachments are just titles granted to an already existing Battleforged Detachment, or an entire Faction if Unbound. Besides, all that still doesn't address these two points: 1) The Rule triggers off "when selecting a Detachment," how is a Detachment selected? 2) The Primary Detachment, assuming it triggers Detachment related Rules, would be allowed how many choices? No matter which way we cut it, the opening posters opponent was mistaken.... they either get zero or one, not freedom to choose all of them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 00:43:58
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 00:54:11
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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I see your point Jinx (you edited as I wrote my first reply). I see primary detachment a bit like the jump unit type. Rather than being a fully fledged detachment of itself it is a moniker added to existing detachments. But I do see the argument you are making and it has more consistency with the RaW. This is just another example of the massive hole in the rules that unbound is. They really need to explain what is and isn't allowed in far more detail than they do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 01:03:37
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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If you used the Unbound method, then once you choose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes.
The way I believe it works is as follow:
-You select a Warlord and a Chapter.
-All units with the same Faction count as a Detachment for rules-purposes (like Chapter Tactics)
-All units (with the same Faction) thus count as having the same Chapter Tactic.
Though I think that works counter-Unbound when you select Special Characters with set Chapter Tactics.
I think my usual response would be: "Ha, that was funny. Don't ever do it again."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 01:11:51
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Flingitnow, Yeah, I have a problem with that as I never get things to read correctly so I rewrite them a few times before I give up.... It is more an example of Game Workshop's use of duel or similar sounding terminology then a problem within the Unbound Rules. Giving something a title with the word 'detachment' within, while also using Detachments as a specific sub-set of Rules, is problematic no matter how you view the situation. All so they could select to keep a handful of 6th Edition Rules which triggered off 'primary detachments', and I doubt they had entertained the concept of renaming Primary Detachment to something else... or maybe they did, and decided the Errata would be too much. In any case, no one simply gets to select which Chapter tactic is best for each individual Unit by going Unbound. Kangodo, The Rule states they count as the Primary Detachment in Rule interactions, not that it triggers every Detachment related Rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 01:13:16
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 01:28:25
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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There is just all sorts of rules that are contrary to the loose rule for unbound of take what you want. Can I have 4 Honourguard squads and no Chapter Masters? Can I take dedicated transport units without a parent unit (an issue they appear aware of as it is resolved in all 7th Ed codeci by making DTs FA choices too) if so what battlefield role are they? It needs more clarification or they need to update all the 6th Ed dexes to 7th.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 16:13:33
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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I can not argue those points, The few 'Army List Restrictions,' including Dedicated Transports, not fitting Unbound Armies well is a known problem that really does need to be addressed. I would also use the original post as another point in that regard, Space Marines having a 'sub-detachment' in the form of a Chapter needs to be embraced by Unbound on some level. Had the not removed the words 'Primary Detachment,' but instead changed the clause to read 'or Primary Detachment if selected for an Unbound Army', it would of at least shown they are willing to address some of the miss-matches in future Codex Releases. Though I shouldn't be surprised, they want us to buy each new Codex in order to learn if they have fixed known problems via updating Rules.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 16:14:54
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 18:52:13
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It is my understanding that you still pick a warlord for unbound, and all models with the same faction count as being in that detachment.
as such although you have blood angels/salamanders/red scorpions whatever, if your warlord is an ultramarine all the models count as being from the ultramarines chapter tactics and that is all they would have available. ie no salamander/redscorpion/etc chapter tactics your army just gets the 1 chapter tactic that is related to the warlord.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 19:13:35
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Blaktoof, There are Rules which trigger specifically off the terminology of Primary Detachment while others trigger simply off the word Detachment. There is nothing in the Rule-book informing us that the two terminologies are interchangeable, even to state that the Primary Detachment is all we need to trigger Detachment related Rules. Without something granting us permission to use the Rules interchangeably, we have to use concepts such as 'can this be Universally Applied' to judge which of the two interpretations is most likely to be correct. As other Rules actually out right break if we try and apply the concept that the Primary Detachment is a Detachment in it's own right, to the point that all Battle-Forged Armies now become illegal, it can not be correct. The most obvious solution is that the terminology Primary Detachment only triggers Rules which are specifically limited to just the Primary Detachment. Chapters are Detachment generic, not Primary Detachment specific.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 19:20:12
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 19:29:33
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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I remember reading in the SM codex that you can take multiple detachments from codex: SM with different CTs
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2000pts (ish)
DR:90S---G-M-B---IPw40k12--D-A+/fWD-R--T(F)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 19:38:14
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Unbound Armies do not use Detachments, so how can a Rule related to selecting multiple Detachments apply?
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 22:37:32
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Unbound armies do, in fact, use detachments...
“The Primary Detachment
Every army has a Primary Detachment. If you organise your army using the Battle-forged method, whichever Detachment contains your Warlord is your Primary Detachment. If you used the Unbound method, then once you choose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive Command Benefits.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/kNVz0.l
Per the above, you pick all the models you want and then pick a Warlord. The Warlord and all models with the same Faction are in the Primary Detachment. All other Faction models are simply in the army, but not in a Detachment.
Chapter Tactics requires a Detachment and Unbound armies can only ever have one Detachment.
So... Two options.
#1... The Warlord is Faction Space Marines. All Space Marine units are considered to be a part of the Primary Detachment. You pick a single Chapter for the Primary Detachment and all Space Marine Faction units share the same Chapter Tactics. Since you can't have different Chapter Tactics in the same Detachment and all Space Marines models are part of the Primary Detachment, it would be impossible to have models from different Chapters. It would be impossible, for example, to build an Unbound list with both Marneus Calgar and Shrike where the Warlord is a Space Marine.
#2... The Warlord is Faction something other than Space Marines. Since any Space Marines will be Detachment-less as they aren't in the Primary Detachment, none of them will benefit from Chapter Tactics. You never actually choose a Chapter. Note that this means you can't take any of the named characters or units with specific Chapter Tactics in a Detachment-less capacity as shown in the last sentence of the next quote...
“When choosing a Space Marines Detachment, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section. Mark the Chapter you choose for each detachment on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment’s Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Space Marines (Enhanced Edition).” v3.7. Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/D18EP.l
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 23:01:34
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Kriswall, No one is disputing that the Unbound Army has a Primary Detachment, I am disputing that the Primary Detachment triggers all Rules related to Detachments. Given that it becomes illegal to use the primary Army Building method, Battle-Forged, and fails to meet any definition of Detachment put forth by the Rule book... is it wrong of a conclusion? I think it is nothing more then a title, designed to allow certain Rules to specifically single out a lone Detachment. Given that there are some advantages in the game they want to apply to a single Detachment, most annoying to me being the Elites for Chaos Marines, it makes sense to have such a divide. As this 6th Edition Rule, which is probably why it doesn't mesh well with Unbound, triggers only on the selecting of a Detachment it does not allow the Player to choose any Chapter Tactics. The point to select a Chapter Tactic is when a Space Marine Detachment is chosen, and that occurs before the Warlord is chosen and still doesn't occur if the Army is granted a Primary Detachment by proxy. That being said, I am more then willing to house-rule at least a single choice because Chapter Tactics are a core part of the Space Marine Army.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 23:32:59
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 23:08:32
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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JinxDragon wrote:Kriswall,
No one is disputing that the Unbound Army has a Primary Detachment, I am disputing that the Primary Detachment triggers all Rules related to Detachments.
Given that it becomes illegal to use the primary Army Building method, Battle-Forged, and fails to meet any definition of Detachment put forth by the Rule book... I think it is nothing more then a title, designed to interact with Rules which specifically single out the Primary Detachment.
I see what you're saying, but I think it's far simpler to consider the Primary Detachment to be a Detachment. The Chapter Tactics rules don't specify the type of Detachment past "Space Marines Detachment" and the Primary Detachment IS a Detachment. An Unbound Primary Detachment with a Space Marines Warlord is definitely a Space Marines Detachment as it has Faction Space Marines. That's all we need for the rule to work.
In other words, the fact that it is a Primary Detachment is irrelevant. The fact that it is a Space Marines Detachment is what triggers the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 23:34:53
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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It makes this one Rule work, but it makes other more important Rules break! Denying it makes all Rules work, it just has a negative outcome for Unbound in this one specific situation... likely unintended, but not broken. Besides, there is another thing to consider: The Rule calls out choosing a Space Marine Detachment, is selecting a Warlord and having a Primary Detachment thrust onto an Army the same as choosing a Space Marine Detachment?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 23:37:50
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 23:46:27
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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JinxDragon wrote:It makes this one Rule work, but it makes other more important Rules break!
Denying it makes all Rules work, it just has a negative outcome for Unbound in this one specific situation... likely unintended, but not broken.
Besides, there is another thing to consider:
The Rule calls out choosing a Space Marine Detachment, is selecting a Warlord and having a Primary Detachment thrust onto an Army the same as choosing a Space Marine Detachment?
Honestly... maybe? I suspect this is another issue that will come down to semantic differences. My gut says yes, insomuch as the act of choosing a Warlord also determines the Primary Detachment. Thus, you choose your Primary Detachment by selecting a Warlord.
The one thing that seems pretty clear is that per the OP's original question... no you can't have multiple Chapter Tactics in an Unbound list. You MIGHT be able to have a single Chapter Tactic and only if the Warlord is a Space Marine. OP's friend was playing the list wrong. Unbound Highlander sucks for Space Marines because you lose the potential benefit of multiple Chapter Tactics.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/27 23:49:23
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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More then willing to play it as one chapter tactic for Unbound as well, I feel this is how it would go if the Authors address the issue.
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 16:56:19
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JinxDragon wrote:Blaktoof,
There are Rules which trigger specifically off the terminology of Primary Detachment while others trigger simply off the word Detachment.
There is nothing in the Rule-book informing us that the two terminologies are interchangeable, even to state that the Primary Detachment is all we need to trigger Detachment related Rules. Without something granting us permission to use the Rules interchangeably, we have to use concepts such as 'can this be Universally Applied' to judge which of the two interpretations is most likely to be correct. As other Rules actually out right break if we try and apply the concept that the Primary Detachment is a Detachment in it's own right, to the point that all Battle-Forged Armies now become illegal, it can not be correct. The most obvious solution is that the terminology Primary Detachment only triggers Rules which are specifically limited to just the Primary Detachment.
Chapters are Detachment generic, not Primary Detachment specific.
I agree with what you are saying.
to add clarity to my post.
in regards to unbound, the models with the same faction as your warlord all count as being in the primary detachment.
as there are no other detachments present in an unbound army, as they are not made up of detachments-
then there are two possible outcomes at the moment that I see.
1- all models with same faction as warlord are in the primary detachment, which is a detachment. Therefore all models with spaces marines faction in a unbound army with a space marine faction warlord have the chapter tactics of the warlord. As all other models are not in this 'primary detachment' and there are no other detachments, then no other model can benefit from special rules based on detachments, ie chapter tactics.
2- Primary detachment =/= detachment, therefore there are no detachments in an unbound army and as such no model in an unbound army can benefit from any chapter tactic.
If a faq comes out linking chapter tactics to units and not detachments then you could have an unbound army with multiple chapter tactics, however none of them would still combine on a single model.
I think the primary detachment is a term used to single out a detachment within the force that contains the warlord, which RAI is supposed to be the core of the army, and is used for all ally/faction purposes as the core faction of the army. It does contain the word detachment, and yes we are not told that it is actually a detachment, because it surely does not follow any of the standard detachment rules.
As I was writing this I actually changed my opinion. Originally I was going to state I felt it was RAI that despite not being a normal detachment, the primary detachment is a detachment and the models get the command benefits/restrictions of a detachment. However unbound does not allow command benefits/restrictions as such I do not think unbound should have access to chapter tactics as it is tied to detachments just like command benefits/special rules and in essence is what chapter tactics are.
I would still be willing to play it that its 1 chapter tactic based on the warlord, but I am not sure there is actualy RAI support for that and it is most likely no chapter tactics.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 17:01:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 17:22:00
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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So even in unbound you can't put calgar and vulkan together?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 17:42:21
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You can have them in the same army, but only one of them could be the warlord, making a primary detachment and giving that model (the warlords) chapter tactics to all models in that detachment, so essentially despite the models in your army being painted of various chapters during the game they are all of just the 1 chapter for chapter tactics.
or they have no chapter tactics as the army doesn't actually include any detachments.
but no, there is no way to get more than 1 set of chapter tactics on a model, and in unbound its not even possible to have 2 sets of chapter tactics in your army. In bound you could have a detachment with chapter tactics UM, and a second detachment with chapter tactics Salamanders, and have both in your army but no model has more than 1 of the chapter tactics. ie some units/models are UM and some units/models are salamanders, but none are both.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 17:43:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 17:44:53
Subject: Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Slippery Scout Biker
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An Unbound Space Marine army may only utilize one set of Chapter Tactics, and they must be the tactics that his Warlord uses.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 19:57:44
Subject: Re:Chapter tactics and unbound.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Well... You could get an unbound army with five sets of "chapter tactics", if you use the term more broadly rather than literally.
That is to say, you could take an unbound list with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and a generic codex chapter of your choice.
So you would have the army special rules of five different marine types. Only one of those special rule sets would be actually called Chapter Tactics, but you'd still have units catered to the special rules of whatever army most suits their role.
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