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So i'm rather new to fantasy, coming from 40k, so i'm not an expert on the rules by any stretch. The other day, i went to play a game against a guy with my dark elves, and when i pulled out my army list and set it on the table for him to look at, he stated "hey, you might want to hide that, or i'll know what's in all of your units." He told me after that it isn't required for me to show an army list to my opponent. I thought this odd, but we proceeded to play the game with me not knowing what he had on the table and him not knowing what i had. Obviously, i could see things like "these guys have great weapons/etc." but i didn't know what any of the characters were outfitted with. Lo and behold later, my lord gets krumped by a guy with van horstman's whatchadiggle. I ended up winning, so i'm not very miffed about it, but this all leads me to wonder:

Am i supposed to show my army list to my opponent or is it a secret? I can't find anything in my rulebook about it, and i was told that it wasn't just a house rule.

Player agreement. In my group, we usually play with disclosed army lists.

Fantasy is traditionally a closed list game, but some people play with disclosed lists.

Some units in fantasy only work in a closed-list setting. For example, if you know which unit of Night Goblins hides Fanatics, then their effect is easily neutralised. Similar with various assassins and so on. So most of the time, you play with a closed list, but have it to hand to show your opponent when a relevant hidden thing comes into play.

Well, you could disclose list, but not the placement of the hidden units. For example, if you take an assassin, you declare you are fielding him, but do not disclose where he is until he strikes.

It's optional. My group has "Semi-closed". We do not exchange lists before hand, you know what your opponent has when they deploy. But in a semi-closed fashion.

So when I play my executioners I'll say "20 executioners, full command" He has no idea if they have a magic banner or not.

Or I play my characters "Supreme Sorc" he doesn't know if she's lvl 3 or 4, or what items she has.

Other things like assassins, skulkers, fanatics or ambushers are never revealed. They're supposed to be "HaHa! Gotchta!" surprises.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
It's optional. My group has "Semi-closed". We do not exchange lists before hand, you know what your opponent has when they deploy. But in a semi-closed fashion.

So when I play my executioners I'll say "20 executioners, full command" He has no idea if they have a magic banner or not.

Or I play my characters "Supreme Sorc" he doesn't know if she's lvl 3 or 4, what lore she has, or what items she has.

Other things like assassins, skulkers, fanatics or ambushers are never revealed. They're supposed to be "HaHa! Gotchta!" surprises.

I do something similar. "this unit has a magic banner ( dont tell them which one), this caster has this lore (I have to declare for tombkings so I'm in the habbit) and give a list of magic weapons on my characters" just to be clear. My opponents usually do the same. I find that a lot of the times your opponent will forget who has what anyway.

 Opeth30 wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
It's optional. My group has "Semi-closed". We do not exchange lists before hand, you know what your opponent has when they deploy. But in a semi-closed fashion.

So when I play my executioners I'll say "20 executioners, full command" He has no idea if they have a magic banner or not.

Or I play my characters "Supreme Sorc" he doesn't know if she's lvl 3 or 4, or what items she has.

Other things like assassins, skulkers, fanatics or ambushers are never revealed. They're supposed to be "HaHa! Gotchta!" surprises.

I do something similar. "this unit has a magic banner ( dont tell them which one), this caster has this lore (I have to declare for tombkings so I'm in the habbit) and give a list of magic weapons on my characters" just to be clear. My opponents usually do the same. I find that a lot of the times your opponent will forget who has what anyway.

The reason we don't even do that is because some spells & abilities/items state "Reveal all magic items within X". Revealing them sooner nullifies these abilities somewhat.

Interesting topic! I think I like Shas' method the most

Yeah, giving a general idea of what your army is composed of without giving away things that are meant to be hidden is the best choice, I think!

I do think that sharing complete lists might be useful if you're in the process of learning the game, or are helping someone learn the game, because that's the kind of situation where you want to talk about everything.

At the flgs I play at we don't ever show each other our list. We just plop down a unit and say "40 stormvermin full command".

It makes it more fun when you don't know any of the magic items and such that characters have. I don't show people my lists in 40k either I don't see why you have to show them your list? Not like I'm gunna cheat and all the people I play with wouldn't cheat either.

So as others have said, there are two traditional schools of thought on this.

The first is closed-list. This really relies on WYSIWYG to help you formulate your strategy, as well as strong knowledge of all other books and the metagame generally.

The second is open list, or full disclosure. You and your opponent share what your armylist is fully before the game starts.

While there are still tournaments that are closed list, I would say that the vast majority are open list. In a casual environment it really just comes down to player choice. I strongly prefer open list, as it makes the game more about decision-making than guesswork or bluffing. It doesn't work for some armies (orcs and goblins, mostly), but I think it's a better system in general.


Again, it just comes down to player choice. Ask your opponent beforehand if you're playing open lists or closed. Then share or do not share accordingly

As an additional note to mine. It helps for proxys / conversions.

I use PP Nyss Legionaires as executioners. So at first my opponent might not know but if I say 20 executioners they get it.

 Da Boss wrote:
Some units in fantasy only work in a closed-list setting. For example, if you know which unit of Night Goblins hides Fanatics, then their effect is easily neutralised. Similar with various assassins and so on. So most of the time, you play with a closed list, but have it to hand to show your opponent when a relevant hidden thing comes into play.

Lets be honest though....if you see a unit of night goblins on the table....your counting on it having 2-3 fanatics.

When I play, I generally do it closed list, but if someone asks me what I have, I say "Unit X, full command." Or "Character 1." I don't give up items, as in the style of lists I play, I have a tiny error margin, which is boosted by items.

My only optional opponent being my wife, yes! haha.

I see, I was under the impression i had to tell you what all i have with the exception of things that specifically say otherwise (nasty skulkers/ fanatics/ assasins) in their rules.

We share lists that contain everything that SHOULD be obvious from WYSIWYG, Things like type of armour and weapon should be obvious but aren't always so, so I think it's important to have a list that includes all that stuff.

Other stuff like magic items, fanatics and so on are kept secret.

ancraig wrote:
I see, I was under the impression i had to tell you what all i have with the exception of things that specifically say otherwise (nasty skulkers/ fanatics/ assasins) in their rules.

Nope, that's 40k. In fantasy we just say "<number>, <unit>, any basic options." The reason I say mundane gear is again because of conversions and to eliminate confusion. What may look like a halberd could actually be a lance. That GW might just be a halberd. My character has a shield but it's strapped to his back so you may not see it.

I try WYSIWYG for the first rank or 2 as it cuts confusion but I like options. My Grave guard are 15 & 15 GW / HW&Shield but I'll say "30 GG, Full command with GW" and make sure my front rank is entirely GW models.I like having the option to switch it up without having to essentially buy double the models.

Playing with your lists disclosed is like playing a game of MTG with all hands revealed: Everyone can see what you've got and plan accordingly. For some armies it doesn't really make a great deal of difference, but for others it's a game changer.

 Craig- wrote:
Playing with your lists disclosed is like playing a game of MTG with all hands revealed: Everyone can see what you've got and plan accordingly. For some armies it doesn't really make a great deal of difference, but for others it's a game changer.

Terrible analogy.


Closed vs. open lists is more like comparing 5-card stud to Texas Hold'em. In one game you have a pool of information to draw on, based on the cards on the table and the way your opponent reacted and bet in response to those cards. In the other game you have NO information about anything outside of your hand and the cards you tossed.

Which game is more fun to you is really a matter of personal preference, however there's a reason that Texas Hold'em became so popular while the other poker variants languished. The tactical complexity of the game is increased dramatically based on the increased knowledge in the form of the cards on the table. Without that knowledge you're essentially just reading your opponents and guessing what they might have. With the knowledge you're still guessing, but at least it's an informed guess.


That really carries when it comes to Warhammer. When you're aware of all the components of your opponents' list you can gauge what is threatening to you and what isn't. However your opponent is able to do the same. Thus the game becomes an elaborate dance with each of you trying to apply the correct tool in the correct manner, while preventing your opponent from doing the same.

In a closed-list game you're just guessing at what everything does, based on your knowledge of the rules. This makes it easier to bluff units with units that you've perhaps skimped on that might otherwise be more powerful, while slipping in units that are more powerful than one would otherwise expect.

In theory at least...in reality it's just the same game with more mistakes. Is it really fun to find out that you accidentally ran your flaming unit into his dragonhelm character? With neither of you being aware of this? It's just adding more randomness to a game that's already based on dice rolls.

I play open lists, my gamestore plays open lists, and most tournaments I've been to in the midwest United States play open lists as well. Could just be a regional thing.

I agree with those who say player agreement as to open or closed lists.

I prefer open lists. Rock paper scissors is more fun in 3 seconds than 3 hours.

kooshlord wrote:
I agree with those who say player agreement as to open or closed lists.

I prefer open lists. Rock paper scissors is more fun in 3 seconds than 3 hours.

Beyond super characters, if your matchups are Rock Paper Scissors, you need better lists.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:
I agree with those who say player agreement as to open or closed lists.

I prefer open lists. Rock paper scissors is more fun in 3 seconds than 3 hours.

Beyond super characters, if your matchups are Rock Paper Scissors, you need better lists.

Partially Agreed. Better to find out with a quick read-through than wasting time setting up and starting a game, only to find out it'll be a curb-stomp in either direction. Especially if you have limited game-time, or have limited table-space at the FLGS.

Beyond super chars, see also: BotWD vs Daemons, Scream spam vs elite CC, etc. Lots of the tourney battle reports describe one or more builds that any given tourney build can, at best, play for a draw. If you're going to a tourney and expect that, fine. Less fun if you run into a build you can't fight, in your one game a week/month/etc., and only figure it out halfway into a multi-hour game.

Open lists is simple. Remove temptation and the ability to cheat and there will be less cheating. Cheating being a natural thing for human beings lets just be open with each other so we CANT cheat each other. Never seen a competitive environment not use open list format.

@ Xeno. I've seen competitive use semi-closed all the time. The list gets approved to the TO but you don't have to reveal all your magic items.

As for the cheating part. If my opponent is that concerned about winning that they need to cheat I'll just find better people to play with. I've never found cheating to be as big a problem as people make it out to be.

I can see it in 40k, which seems to be your forte, when a melta suddenly becomes a flamer but fantasy doesn't really have specialized weapons like that. Usually in the tournaments I've played in it's pre-submit to TO. Play game semi-closed list, exchange lists after game.

I just keep a record of what my opponent said was on who, it helps to keep notes during a game.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
@ Xeno. I've seen competitive use semi-closed all the time. The list gets approved to the TO but you don't have to reveal all your magic items.

As for the cheating part. If my opponent is that concerned about winning that they need to cheat I'll just find better people to play with. I've never found cheating to be as big a problem as people make it out to be.

I can see it in 40k, which seems to be your forte, when a melta suddenly becomes a flamer but fantasy doesn't really have specialized weapons like that. Usually in the tournaments I've played in it's pre-submit to TO. Play game semi-closed list, exchange lists after game.

I just keep a record of what my opponent said was on who, it helps to keep notes during a game.

I can understand for a hidden assassin type unit the element of surprise is essential to it's use but at least in 40k units like that have special rules that tell you how to use them. Like - "To make a secret note where the unit is deployed and show your opponent when you reveal the unit." That is how Tyranid Lictors used to work. Same effect could be used to hide an assassin in a squad. Are Magic spells really intended to be secret? In 40k I have to roll all my spells off in front of my opponent at the beginning of the game.

We generally have open lists to the extent of you know what units are where, what kind of upgrades they have, and if there are any characters (normal characters not hidden ones) in each unit. We generally wait to reveal magic items to when they are first used or are no a model in close combat to allow people to use items like van horstman's (otherwise it would be easy to negate certain items). For people worried about other player's honesty we have lists written up and share them afterwards (and in tournament settings, the list has always been given to the TO).

I'm generally very open about what I'm taking, especially when it comes down to rare/old or proxied models. In the past I've run into a few opponents who tried to use confusion based around models to their advantage and find that to be cheesy. You as the player should be able to tell generally what a unit is in the game regardless of what models your opponent is using.

Xeno, spells aren't secret at all. We roll for them openly before the game, 40k got that from fantasy.

What is kept secret are magic items. This is two fold. 1.) some items are one use only & meant to be a surprise. Oh you charged my dreadlord with your general? Be a shame if I ate a black dragon egg...

The second reason is there are spells & abilities that specifically reveal magic items within X. Having a fully open list would negate this ability & give your opponent an unfair advantage. Your model paid points / cast dice to know that, your opponent got it for free.