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kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:
I agree with those who say player agreement as to open or closed lists.

I prefer open lists. Rock paper scissors is more fun in 3 seconds than 3 hours.

Beyond super characters, if your matchups are Rock Paper Scissors, you need better lists.

Partially Agreed. Better to find out with a quick read-through than wasting time setting up and starting a game, only to find out it'll be a curb-stomp in either direction. Especially if you have limited game-time, or have limited table-space at the FLGS.

Beyond super chars, see also: BotWD vs Daemons, Scream spam vs elite CC, etc. Lots of the tourney battle reports describe one or more builds that any given tourney build can, at best, play for a draw. If you're going to a tourney and expect that, fine. Less fun if you run into a build you can't fight, in your one game a week/month/etc., and only figure it out halfway into a multi-hour game.

Those builds you listed aren't really valid examples. With the Banner, just charge a beast into the flank(One at a time), and clear up the rest of the army. They get 180 points off you and you get the rest of the army.

Scream spam has it's weaknesses. Judge the movement correctly and you can force the 'gheists to land where you want them to.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Those builds you listed aren't really valid examples. With the Banner, just charge a beast into the flank(One at a time), and clear up the rest of the army. They get 180 points off you and you get the rest of the army.

Scream spam has it's weaknesses. Judge the movement correctly and you can force the 'gheists to land where you want them to.

I feel we are a bit off-topic here. Reeling things back in:

- I don't play BotWD vs daemons, cuz neither of us view it as fun. This decision is made possible by open lists.
- Scream Spam can fail or win hard, I've been on both sides. I find the interesting games are where both lists have tools to deal with each other, and then the fun is seeing who is better or luckier with those tools. With open lists, in casual play, you can adjust as necessary to make this the case.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Those builds you listed aren't really valid examples. With the Banner, just charge a beast into the flank(One at a time), and clear up the rest of the army. They get 180 points off you and you get the rest of the army.

Scream spam has it's weaknesses. Judge the movement correctly and you can force the 'gheists to land where you want them to.

I feel we are a bit off-topic here. Reeling things back in:

- I don't play BotWD vs daemons, cuz neither of us view it as fun. This decision is made possible by open lists.
- Scream Spam can fail or win hard, I've been on both sides. I find the interesting games are where both lists have tools to deal with each other, and then the fun is seeing who is better or luckier with those tools. With open lists, in casual play, you can adjust as necessary to make this the case.

The whole issue with those lists is that they present a rock paper scissors matchup in a game that is inherently geared against those kinds of matchups because of the movement phase. If it were 40K where everything moved 6", then the scream spam list would be the top dog. Same with the BoTWD deathstar.

In this game, as long as you don't have a d-bag of an opponent, closed lists should be fine. I can't really play open lists anymore thanks to Mo Ashraf setting the bar WAY TOO HIGH. And my opponents generally bring the same list for each army they play. Unless we do something crazy, then we play semi open.

It's not a question of whether closed lists are "fine" but whether they're "fun" or "better." I submit that playing open lists makes the game more complex and, thus, more enjoyable. Closed lists really just lends itself to gimmicky list writing.

I think closed is better. I like the surprises. I think it adds to the game. Going into a battle I wouldn't know my opponents leutenant had a vorpal blade until I'd seen it used.

I think it's more fun because it makes it feel more like an actual battle than a chess match. I like having those "Gotcha" moments when my vampire lord goes to kill an empire wizard & has his stats swapped. I like when my assasin pops out with the other tricksters shard a +1 str blade & murders that character out of nowhere.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
I think closed is better. I like the surprises. I think it adds to the game. Going into a battle I wouldn't know my opponents leutenant had a vorpal blade until I'd seen it used.

I think it's more fun because it makes it feel more like an actual battle than a chess match. I like having those "Gotcha" moments when my vampire lord goes to kill an empire wizard & has his stats swapped. I like when my assasin pops out with the other tricksters shard a +1 str blade & murders that character out of nowhere.

Yeah but you can only do that so many times before you anticipate everything. There are very few builds that truly break out of the mold or are objectively better than known builds. Vampire lords should never issue or accept challenges (that's what unit champions are for), and if an Empire character issues a challenge you know it's because he has the speculum. If a DE or Skaven player says "I pop my potion of strength" at the beginning of his turn then you know not to charge that unit. There are only so many surprises, and after a while they're not even really surprising.

I actually quite LIKE how open list warhammer is like a chess match. I love chess, and warhammer is like better chess. You feint and dance; strike and counter-strike. Warhammer between two excellent players is a beautiful sight to behold. When your opponent knows all of your tools and what ought to counter them, and yet STILL allows you to pull off your battle plan...that's something that you can take home with you.

Doesn't really matter I suppose. I mean, I show my opponent my battle list if they ask but even if they do see an item or something in a unit we only play friendlies. If you was playing a tournament, though, or something like that, it's best to keep them secret so you have the element of surprise to win. Hope this helps

I have always played with open lists. before each game, I explain what runes I'm taking, so my opponent isn't asking why I wound on twos and he gets no armour save.
I can understand not revealing what unit your assassin, fanatics, ect are in, but not announcing it at all kind of seems like a dick move to me.
That said, I've never played in a tournament setting, and there I think it would be ok to have semi-closed so that you have a slight edge (but so will your opponent).

I don't think it's a dick move, i mean yeah you don't know mine but also I don't know yours. We're on even ground. I think it's part of the battle. In a battle you wouldn't know what magic weapon that guy has. You'd know "Oh hey dwarfs with 2 handed hammers, must be hammerers..." but you wouldn't really know "Oh that thane has a magic weapon that does exactly this" I feel the same about ambushers. I don't tell my opponent, nor to I want to know. That's the point of an ambush, you don't know.

Warhammer is a war game & the element of surprise is a big factor. I like having it in there, I think being able to react to an unexpected banner or ambushing unit is the sign of a good player. not just "Ok I know everything you have so I can plan everything out in advance" If it were a real battle I imagine it like I'd send my trolls to deal with those archers because they'e trolls they can take it. But when their arrows light on fire mid air (banner of flame) I go "oh gak!" and need to re direct my trolls somewhere better.

Now say it was Malekith. I know what magic gear he has because well he's malekith. He's kind of stuck in his armor and he's got his iconic sword that word has spread of what it does, but I wouldn't expect to know that Talos Blackblood (generic dreadlord) runs around with a +2 str sword & the armour of destiny..

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
[...] I wouldn't expect to know that Talos Blackblood (generic dreadlord) runs around with a +2 str sword & the armour of destiny..

You would if you'd scouted out the enemy properly. Say by interrogating captured scouts or townsfolk.

The more important point though is that WHFB is a game, and you should play it however makes the game more fun for you. I can honestly say that I find open lists to be far more tactically rewarding. Yes your opponent knows the contents of your bag of tricks, but they frequently don't recognize how those tricks will be utilized. People make mistakes. Getting a lucky matchup because your opponent didn't know he was charging his trolls into a flaming banner doesn't make the game more interesting.

True personal preference is fine one way or the other. But I think it DOES make it more interesting when that happens because I sprung a properly set trap that my opponent now must react to or on the converse I now need to rework my battle plan to keep me from losing. I don't think warhammer should be more like chess because I want to simulate a battle where I don't know these things and have to react on the fly.

"You would if you'd scouted out the enemy properly. Say by interrogating captured scouts or townsfolk. "
Maybe, maybe you'd have the wrong information. I doubt all but the most experienced & skilled "scouts" would be able to get close enough to identify the enchantments on a warlords personal weapon. They can probably tell it's a magic weapon but not what it does exactly.

As for interrogation you have no way to verify the information a captured scout gives you. I mean when John McCain (US Senator) was "interrogated" by the north vietnamese they wanted the names & ranks of his wing mates. He gave them the starting lineup of the green bay packers. What's to say you didn't get bad intel? Also I doubt common townsfolk know what type of weapon their lord wields.