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 Wyzilla wrote:
Meanwhile the Blood Angels have Jack and Gak backing up the line in their codex besides a kill made by a Hrud.

This is the silly part. They don't need to have anything to back it up*, it is a fact told to us about them, and thus is exactly as much or little true as any other fact told to us by the creators of the setting. For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that BL authors writing stories about stuff makes them more true than general stuff told in the codices.

(* Though there certainly are a lot of other facts that fit well together with that piece of information.)

 Psienesis wrote:
It's the simple fact that Codex: Blood Angels has repeatedly stated that they're the longest-living Marines that tells us that they have a finite lifespan. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to have such a line in the codex.

... Other then to brag how much better and pure and true they are compared to the infid... lesser chapters

 Crimson wrote:
For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that BL authors writing stories about stuff makes them more true than general stuff told in the codices.

For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that the inverse is true.

 Ashiraya wrote:

For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that the inverse is true.

No I don't. We have general statements about the marine lifespan, and several 'old' marines that are couple of centuries old. Then we have some cases of marines living several millennia. This certainly is a discrepancy. Some people here prefer to throw away all the fluff that implies limited lifespan, because it is contradicted by few specific cases. I prefer to explain those cases as anomalous incidents, where certain circumstances (sus-an coma, warp, something else) allowed the marine to live much longer than is usual. That way most of the fluff can be preserved: Yes,marines have a limited lifespan of about five hundred years (give or take couple of centuries), and yes, those couple of guys lived much longer than that.

However, I really don't understand why some people keep insisting on immortality, now than even BL has backed down from that position.

I didn't consider this before but it "could" be that on the creation of astartes they were biologically immortal, but the massive watering down of the Gene seed could have resulted in a shortening of there life spans, this would allow consistency with the fluff, it could also account for modern marines standing out as they have lived a few millennia.

That's just a personal musing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also another factor to consider is that modern marines consider a 500 year old marine "old" as they are... Still alive, if most marines die "young" so to speak then any marine that lives longer than the norm would be considered old by there peers.

Then another thing is that the in universe narrator (codex) doesn't actually know that marines are biologically immortal and considers a 2k year old marine surprising and "old" and that they have far greater life spans than there peers.

Some of them look physically older than others, like the commander in the first Dawn of War. To me that's clear evidence that they do age, and by logic, they eventually succumb to age.

Again that's easily explained, it's called looking rugged, making a character stand out, also high stress environments can give the illusion of older age, scaring of the skin and weathering of the face, physical symptoms of age can appear even when the individual is functionally young.

The skin can become weathered and look old even if the internal organs are unaffected. So looks mean absolutely nothing.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Some of them look physically older than others, like the commander in the first Dawn of War. To me that's clear evidence that they do age, and by logic, they eventually succumb to age.

That they appear to age does not indicate that they die of age.

After all, we've never seen a Marine who looks like this.

Or, maybe they are and this is just your way of getting us to drop our guard? Sneaky Ashiraya. I’m onto your tricks.

It depends on the chapter, Blood Angels are the most long-lived as they can live past the age of 1000. Dante has commanded the Blood Angels for 1000 years and we all know how many years it takes to become a chapter master.

Talos and the other night lords on the covenant of blood believe that it has only been 700 (iirc) years since the siege of terra. This suggests that the traitor legions aren't by their own perspective 10,000 years old.

It is also possible that some marines who have spent long periods in the warp might be "younger" than records suggest.

If I had a twin in the 41st millennium and I joined the guard whilst he stayed planet side then for every year I spent in the warp I may not be ageing at all whilst my twin is still getting older. Over our lifetimes say a span of 80 years, assuming I survive long enough to be drummed out on an imperial world, whilst records would state that we were both 80 I might have the biology of a man 15 years younger due to my time in the empyrean.

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
Talos and the other night lords on the covenant of blood believe that it has only been 700 (iirc) years since the siege of terra. This suggests that the traitor legions aren't by their own perspective 10,000 years old.

No, it does not. It only reinforces what we already know - time does not work in the Warp like it does in realspace. The Warp, however, is unpredictable. It does not reliably shorten time. For each Marine who has only seen one thousand years since the Heresy, there is another who might have seen a hundred thousand years.

We know that at least a significant amount of CSM have experienced ten millennia of war since the Heresy. The Black Legion supplement flat out states this.

warp works both ways.
just as a man might spend a hundred real years in the warp and have it seem like three days, a man might spend three real days in the warp and have it seem like a hundred years.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Some of them look physically older than others, like the commander in the first Dawn of War. To me that's clear evidence that they do age, and by logic, they eventually succumb to age.

That they appear to age does not indicate that they die of age.

After all, we've never seen a Marine who looks like this.

Spoiler:

You haven't seen "Ultramarines", have you?

But what the CSM know to be 10K years does not mean that they are biologically immortal. Simply by the fact that it's the Warp. They are aware of the passage of time, in the sense that they perceive it... time, itself, as in the biological process, may not actually be passing. It's the Warp, it is most certainly not an all-or-nothing scenario there.

I'll say it again. IN THE WARP, TIME IS NOT A SET THING. SOMETIMES IT GOES SLOWLY, SOMETIMES FAST. A DAY IN THE WARP MIGHT BE A YEAR IN REAL SPACE, BUT A DAY IN REAL SPACE MAY BE 100 YEARS IN THE WARP.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I'll say it again. IN THE WARP, TIME IS NOT A SET THING. SOMETIMES IT GOES SLOWLY, SOMETIMES FAST. A DAY IN THE WARP MIGHT BE A YEAR IN REAL SPACE, BUT A DAY IN REAL SPACE MAY BE 100 YEARS IN THE WARP.

Yes but I think everyone's concerned about the Space Marines unaffected by the warp. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume the unaffected ones will eventually die, of something not involving a missile to the face and the likes.

My question is how is Fabulous Bill still around? Abaddon and Kharn? I get staying in the Warp MAY stem aging, but they spend time outside the Warp too. Fabulous, as mentioned earlier, was scared of dying of age.

Hell, the Alpha Legion don't even retreat back to the Warp; they live in realspace.

The answer probably lies with Cypher. 10k+ but does that include several sessions of warp time or help from chaos powers? only Lord Cypher knows...

Fallen Angel in the room!

 ChazSexington wrote:
My question is how is Fabulous Bill still around? Abaddon and Kharn? I get staying in the Warp MAY stem aging, but they spend time outside the Warp too. Fabulous, as mentioned earlier, was scared of dying of age.

Hell, the Alpha Legion don't even retreat back to the Warp; they live in realspace.

The Alpha Legion definitely resides in the Warp... and everywhere else, too.

Fabulous Bill definitely hops around in the Eye, and out of it. Abaddon and Kharn are both blessed by various Ruinous Powers, longevity is one of the basic perks.

This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after EDIT: Several millenia, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc. And this breakdown will occur over centuries and millenia, so that it is almost imperceptible.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

 dusara217 wrote:
This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after aproximately 800 years, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

DNA only degrades through replication which can be simply stopped by manipulating your telomeres to be actually efficient. This is how you get aging in the first place. Considering there's multiple non Blood Angel marines well over a thousand years old, Astartes clearly don't suffer from limited lifespans outside of absurd periods of time that would put the atomic half life of their bodies into play.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after aproximately 800 years, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

DNA only degrades through replication which can be simply stopped by manipulating your telomeres to be actually efficient. This is how you get aging in the first place. Considering there's multiple non Blood Angel marines well over a thousand years old, Astartes clearly don't suffer from limited lifespans outside of absurd periods of time that would put the atomic half life of their bodies into play.

I hate to say it, but I have no clue what telomeres are, would you care to enlighten me, oh wise one? (no sarcasm intended. Okay, maybe a little in the last two words)

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after aproximately 800 years, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

DNA only degrades through replication which can be simply stopped by manipulating your telomeres to be actually efficient. This is how you get aging in the first place. Considering there's multiple non Blood Angel marines well over a thousand years old, Astartes clearly don't suffer from limited lifespans outside of absurd periods of time that would put the atomic half life of their bodies into play.

I hate to say it, but I have no clue what telomeres are, would you care to enlighten me, oh wise one? (no sarcasm intended. Okay, maybe a little in the last two words)

Essentially telomeres are the stuff responsible for replicating genetic material as the original cells die. Aging happens because the telomeres located on the ends of the genes (like a bottlecap) grow smaller with each copy and protect DNA less from damage or flaws occurring when the human body is copying its DNA to replace old DNA sets. However if you lengthen the telomeres, if not permanently, and keep them working at the rate they are when you're a baby, aging would all but stop completely.

Supplement this with forcibly converting mature stem cells into young stem cells, and congrats, you're biologically immortal.

There are examples of biologically immortal or incredibly long-lived animals that practice either one or both of these functions, Lobsters have constant production of Telomerase which keeps the telomeres in a juvenile, healthy state, and the immortal jellyfish can only die of disease or violence due to forcing its mature stem cells to turn into a young state (it can forcibly turn itself into a "baby" when it wants and can repeat this process for infinity).

I'd recommend you look up the wikipedia article though, it's more thorough and less crude.

Interesting fact: Lobsters are thought to be biologically immortal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Interesting fact: Lobsters are thought to be biologically immortal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

Ehhhh I wouldn't be so sure about that. They live for a very, very long time, but we don't know how long. Calling them immortal is a bit jumping the gun when research is still being done to see if they actually are immortal.

@Wyzilla I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Anyways, you're right, Astartes probably are biologically immortal; there is far from enough data to be able to conclude this in a concrete fashion, but it is entirely possible and there is at least one Astartes who surived 10k years - Chapter-Master Astelan - without any Warp shenanigans or use of the Sus-An Membrane for extended periods of time.

Nah asty got spat out in the 41st millennium, he chilled out for a bit then went a rampaging, that it assuming anything he said was the truth.

 Formosa wrote:
Nah asty got spat out in the 41st millennium, he chilled out for a bit then went a rampaging, that it assuming anything he said was the truth.

Honestly, that whole book involving him was just one steaming pile of dogshit. It just completely changed the character of Astelan and turned him into a total racist Psycho; the complete opposite of what he used to be. That bit about the Lion makes sense, except for all of the Lion's conduct throughout Fallen Angels suggests the exact opposite regarding his loyalty. Gav Thorpe definitely is the biggest dick of an author I've ever read. At least, that's the impression that I got after reading a few of the things he wrote from his own perspective instead of from the perspective of one of the characters.

 dusara217 wrote:
I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Platypus (and it's cousin the Echidna). No "intelligent designer" could have come up with those without doing enough drugs to screw over the rest of creation too.

Not to mention our own bodies have useless pieces that might have once had a function, like the appendix which does nothing for us except sometimes require emergency surgery when infected.

Well, in the Salamander books there was a marine from the Heresy era that they found still alive. He was however atrophied to the point where all they could do was give him the Emperor's Mercy and extract his geneseed.

If he had actually had any food over the 10,000 years he would have been fine.