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I currently play Khador and have been playing them somewhat infrequently for around 8 months. I have a somewhat large collection with most of the staples of the faction, but something keeps feeling "off" about them. My meta is not very competitive and generally doesn't pay attention to theorycrafting and netlists or the larger meta (we are somewhat insular). The end result of this is weird combinations that work well (things like 2x Repenters + a Castigator to roast infantry) because they aren't seen in the national metas so there isn't much talk of how to deal with them. I have found myself becoming increasingly frustrated with Khador, and while I'm not 100% sure on why the following things seem to be a big part of it:

* It seems every opponent I play against has ways to easily deal with my single-wound infantry, no matter how good they might be with buffs. Cygnar's Gun Mages and Black 13th, Menoth's Vanquisher, Repenter, Castigator, Convergence's Reductors behind a wall of Reciprocators, Legion's Hellion w/Sorceress, any continuous fire, etc. My poor infantry tends to get wiped out even if it's something like Black Dragon Iron Fang Pikemen, because they're still just one wound and don't seem to do much other than get stuck in.

* My lone Warjack, while good, frequently gets double or triple teamed by others who can field multiple heavies or even a heavy and a few lights, and when it inevitably gets crushed I have no real way to deal with multiple Warjacks running rampant.

* It really feels like Khador has little or no tricks beyond buffing easily killed infantry and hoping to strike hard enough, and it just doesn't seem to be working no matter what I try. My infantry can't stand up to whatever my opponent throws at them, and if that fails it feels like I have nothing left.

Since I'm so jaded I'm looking at starting another faction soon (or when we next do a Journeyman League, whichever comes first), and I can't decide. When I first got into the game, I loved the look and feel of Cygnar (the Ironclad was the first Warmachine model I ever saw), and I like how they can do the ranged game easily as well as run more Warjacks than Khador (I don't necesarily want to go all Warjacks in the way that Hordes can run a lot of beasts, but running a heavy or two and a couple of lights is fine). In fact, I originally was going to play Cygnar and changed my mind at the 11th hour because I had read their faction units weren't that good and they relied on mercenaries (it was explained to me at the time as them being mostly mercenaries, which I didn't want as I felt they wouldn't look cohesive on the table), but I've come to terms with using mercenaries so this isn't a problem anymore. They also seem pretty solid as a faction overall, although they don't seem to have a lot of tricks. There's also two other people that have looked into starting it so it's a little saturated, although to be fair we basically have someone who plays at least one of every major faction so nothing is truly unique at my shop. From an aesthetic perspective, blue is my favorite color and I like lightning.

The other faction I'm considering is Menoth, mostly because they seem to have a huge bag of tricks that nobody else can do, things like getting amazingly cheap Warjacks that do a ton for their points (Reckoner springs to mind; this thing seems to outclass my Spriggan in every way possible and is 2 points cheaper to boot) and then being able to buff it on top of that as well as being able to run several, having good infantry as well as nasty multi-wound infantry (i.e. Bastions), plus all of the buffing and synergy things they can do. The only issue here is that I really don't like some of their casters, in particular Feora and Harbinger; my favorites are Kreoss, Severius and the High Reclaimer. From an aesthetic perspective they also seem a bit more challenging to paint with all the trim and I don't like the white/cream color so I'd have to think of an alternate one.

The last thing I can do is to stick it out with Khador, because I really do like the units (I chose them because I liked how virtually every one of their units looked) but I can't shake this feeling of helplessness nearly every game when my opponent can do all this stuff that makes single-wound infantry nearly irrelevant and that's the main strength of Khador - I'm not entirely sure if I'm just doing something wrong or if the faction just doesn't fit me, but lately I haven't even wanted to play games and I don't know why. I have the staple units: Winter Guard Death Star, Pikemen, Great Bears, Widowmakers, but none of it seems to matter and they tend to get dealt with easily no matter who I face. My WGIDS die in droves even with Iron Flesh, even my Pikemen get dealt with easily and that's while under Shield Wall AND Iron Zeal!

I usually approach games from a tournament perspective; I'll tend to have two lists and pick one based on what I think will work (we generally play 35 points) while most my opponents will build a list on the fly or just use the same thing because they don't have a large enough collection for two lists with restrictions.

Cygnar is a one Jack faction pretty much as well. Yes they have some other options but one Jack is their best option.

Also, their infantry die easier than Khador infantry.

Yes they give you some other options, but if those are the things bugging you Cygnar won't really fix them.

I started playing Menoth this year and I will be the first one to tell you that I lose a lot. Seems like every army I play can do something better then I can do. The grass may seem greener on the other side of the fence but it's just as tough to mow. I would stick with the army you have now and just continue working on your game.

 Mordekiem wrote:
Cygnar is a one Jack faction pretty much as well. Yes they have some other options but one Jack is their best option.

Also, their infantry die easier than Khador infantry.

Yes they give you some other options, but if those are the things bugging you Cygnar won't really fix them.

I disagree; Cygnar has blaster warcasters who only want one 'jack just like everyone else, but they're nowhere near the "never ever field more than one warjack" horrors of Khador. Their warjacks are less Focus-hungry, they have more tools that give the warjacks some benefit without requiring Focus, and they have more/better ways to run warjacks without your warcaster than everyone else. I run a fifty-point list with EHaley (a warcaster who likes having a hundred percent of her Focus to zap the enemy with), and there are three warjacks in the list, only one of which is actually in her battlegroup.

The point to worry about with Cygnar is that everything's expensive and fragile. You're very reliant on positioning and on crippling the other guy before he can get stuck in, if he gets the alpha strike off you're screwed. They have a pretty steep learning curve; you don't have Khador's straightforward pump-Def-through-the-roof-and-run-forward approach, you don't have Menoth's brutally reliable Weapon Masters or no-you-can't-do-that tricks, you've got lockdown and raw damage output that has to be played carefully because it can't take a hit. Cygnar is the faction that wins games on a quarter-inch of distance.

Specifically addressing the OP's three issues:

1. Changing faction won't help you with avoiding infantry clearing. Single-wound infantry won't last all that long if the other guy hits them first regardless of how tough they are. You can play Warmachine in one of two ways in general: either assume the other guy is going to hit first, in which case you put expendable troops out front and plan to win on the counterattack with your second rank, or you assume you're going to hit first, in which case you have to hit first but your front rank is going to get some damage output. Planning on having a unit get hit and then hit back doesn't work at all. Cygnar will do no better for you on this, their infantry selection is very reliant on hitting first; Menoth has more attrition tricks to keep their Exemplars on the field and in the way, if you're interested in getting stuck into the grindfest with infantry Menoth, Cyriss, and Cryx are the factions you want to go with. Khador, Cygnar, and Retribution are much more reliant on the alpha strike.

2. First off if your one warjack is getting double-teamed you ought to be positioning somewhere you can't be. Abuse terrain and screening infantry, make sure you can't get alpha-striked. Secondly if your warjack is the only thing you have that can touch other warjacks something's gone wrong. Khador has some of the highest-POW infantry attacks around; Democorps, Iron Fangs, and Doom Reavers at the very least ought to be able to at least cripple a heavy. Cygnar and Menoth both can do more warjacks better than Khador, but Cygnar's almost certainly best of the three at it (reasons noted above).

3. My favourite story about the inane rules interaction in Warmachine is about a weird-format tournament I was in a few months back. Each player had two warcasters ('jack/beast points from both) and 25 more points to spend on two battlegroups. My opponent had Butcher3's unit receive a charge order; he ran one of his dogs off to the left of my three heavies, then charged that dog with the Butcher such that he didn't fail the charge, then he Wind Rushed off to the left and cast his spell that pulls enemies within 5" towards him. Now I have Butcher3 in melee with all three of my heavies; he proceeds to feat and cast Flashing Blade six times. Molik Karn, Tiberion, and a Bronzeback are now dead. Khador is not simple or lacking in tricks. There is no such thing as a faction that is simple or lacking in tricks. Cygnar has tricks, Menoth has tricks, but they don't have more or better tricks than Khador, they have different tricks. (Usually Khador's tricks are of the "How the ass did you just get that into melee and kill half my army?" variety, Cygnar's are "How the ass did you just shoot me to death from way over there?", and Menoth's are "What do you mean I can't do that?", if that helps).

It sounds to me like you're hitting the frustrating part of the learning curve; I'd suggest asking your more experienced opponents to postmortem games and listening to what they have to say about any blunders. I can't be much more specific without seeing how your games went but it sounds like you're having difficulty controlling where and when combat engagements happen.

I used to play Khador and I got very frustrated with them. The single wound infantry is awesome, but the medium stuff sucks ass and Khador doesn't really run jacks (Although new junior helps here).

Have you considered Skorne? The faction plays the way that Khador is presumed by newbs to play: Lots of hard models backed up by some support, not a horde of single wounders and a jack to use up the points.

Downside of Skorne is that they have no bent casters: Like Butcher 3, Ehaley, PDenny, etc, but the warbeasts and infantry are generally very solid.

But having an 8 point model pump out 7 attacks at MAT6 POW17/18 after charging for free is pretty sweet. And that's before any caster buffs such as +2SPD/+2STR; Fury Spell, etc



Gaz

I have played Khador, Cygnar and Menoth. If you want to talk about infantry, Menoth and Khadors are probably heads above most of Cygnars, with the ATGM being the only really great Cygnar unit. For multiple wound infantry, Menoth is way better than Khador. For jack support, again Menoth is way better than both Khador and Cygnar.

Out of the 3 factions, I actually find Menoth the easiest to play because they can do so many denial tricks. Want to cast spells? no. Want to kill my warjack? Enliven. Want to snack? Self-sac. Etc etc.

Sining wrote:
For jack support, again Menoth is way better than both Khador and Cygnar.

?

Choir does not make Menoth entirely better at warjack support mostly because it starts and ends there. Menoth warjack-heavy suffers from having all of one warcaster that interacts significantly with their battlegroup in the way Nemo (any of the three), Kraye, and Darius do; Cygnar also has access to eleven Focus worth of Journeyman Warcasters.

Choir and Vassal. Why would you need a warcaster that interacts significantly with your battlegroup when you have a 2 point unit/solo that can interact significantly with ALL jacks and not just battlegroup specific. While Cygnar has 1 journeyman more than the others, I've rarely seen people attach anything to the non-character journeyman.

Sining wrote:
Choir and Vassal. Why would you need a warcaster that interacts significantly with your battlegroup when you have a 2 point unit/solo that can interact significantly with ALL jacks and not just battlegroup specific. While Cygnar has 1 journeyman more than the others, I've rarely seen people attach anything to the non-character journeyman.

Two units doesn't make Menoth better at warjacks than Cygnar.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Sining wrote:
For jack support, again Menoth is way better than both Khador and Cygnar.

?

Choir does not make Menoth entirely better at warjack support mostly because it starts and ends there. Menoth warjack-heavy suffers from having all of one warcaster that interacts significantly with their battlegroup in the way Nemo (any of the three), Kraye, and Darius do; Cygnar also has access to eleven Focus worth of Journeyman Warcasters.

Did you miss the Vassal, Reclaimer, Bastion Seneschal, Eye of Menoth, Ignite, Warpath, and all the other things we have which buff warjacks?

I think you are also seriously under estimating just how powerful the Choir really are. +2 to attack and damage is huge. All our Warjacks are effectively Mat8 and Rat7 at all times. All of our reach heavies will be hitting at a minimum of pow19.

We also have Heirophants, Wracks, and an above average average focus value on our warcasters. Heirophants and Wracks mean we can still cast a bunch of spells even while feeding our warjacks. We also have generally high focus stats.

We don't have many battle group spells, but that doesn't mean much. Our spells can effect everyone.

We also have hands down the best non-character warjack in the game. The Reckoner has Reach, Spd5, Arm19, pow 17 base, a pow13 range 12 gun that has both Assault and Flare, and it has Ashen Veil at all times. All for the criminally low cost of 8 points.

Its amazing without any buffs, with buffs its downright disgusting.

+2/+2 is basically like a free boost

I'm not saying Menoth can't run warjacks. I'm saying that against three Journeymen, Strangeways, Gun Mages, Nemo1-3, Kraye, Darius, heavies with Accumulator, Thor, assorted Merc jack and generic support also available to Menoth, and too many ranged buffs to list here it's completely inaccurate to claim that Menoth's warjack support, however versatile and powerful, is flat-out better than Cygnar's.


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Sining wrote:
+2/+2 is basically like a free boost

Does the Gorax make Circle better at warbeasts than Legion?

When are there three journeyman in Cygnar? There's also one jack with accumulator. Also nemo 1-3 is caster specific when the choir isn't. You can take them with anyone and any list but if you want to use nemos buffs you have to take them with nemo. That certainly seems like the choir is a lot more versatile for buffs. I wouldn't say it's inaccurate to say menoth is better than Cygnar in terms of warjack support but it's an opinion.

Also gorax is 4 points and buffs one creature with the auto chance to frenzy. It's very different from the choir. Plus legion has a lot better fury management solos than circle.

Ranged buffs are weaker than all around buffs and melee buffs. The Hymn of Battle also effects both shooting and melee. Menoth jacks also don't sacrifice melee ability to have good guns.

Cygnar jacks lose out a lot in melee capability when they have a gun, Stormwall is the exception.

Sining wrote:
Also gorax is 4 points and buffs one creature with the auto chance to frenzy. It's very different from the choir. Plus legion has a lot better fury management solos than circle.

Do Beast Handlers make Skorne better at warbeasts than Legion?

Menoth and Cygnar do 'Jack-heavy lists differently. Declaring one is better than the other doesn't seem sensible to me.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Menoth jacks also don't sacrifice melee ability to have good guns.

Cygnar jacks lose out a lot in melee capability when they have a gun, Stormwall is the exception.

? Menoth lights with guns have a point or two of POW over Cygnar lights with guns, Cygnar compensates by having better guns; I don't see a Menoth heavy with a gun that can compete with a Stormclad in melee.

Cygnar just doesn't have any jack support which compares to the Protectorate.

As a reminder, that vaunted Cygnar Gunline will be unable to shoot the advancing Menoth jacks with the majority of its guns. The only way their jacks can get around it is with A+H and/or Explosivo. And A+H can only give 1 model/unit the magic guns. And Explosivo has a substantial drawback, only works on the first shot, and it costs a precious focus.

Gun Mages can shoot the Menoth jacks, but they'll do no damage unless they fish for Crit Brutal. And Thunderbolt is just delaying the inevitable, and you'll often have the jacks be immune to knockdown.

Vassals are also a huge piece of support. Ancillary Attack is self-explanatory. Enliven is a subtly complex buff. You can basically ensure one jack cannot be killed with a melee attack or threaten that if you damage this jack it will only increase its threat range.

Ancillary Attack is most effective granting additional ranged attacks. It doubles the firepower of jacks which have a lot of it already. A Reckoner can tag something with its Flare(and a pow15) before it charges something else(which it also shoots). A Vanquisher can lob out 2 pow16 AOE4s that cause fire a turn. That makes infantry units disappear.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't see a Menoth heavy with a gun that can compete with a Stormclad in melee.

A Reckoner will put a Stormclad into the dirt.

With 3 focus and Hymn of Battle.

The Reckoner charges. Assault shot: Pow15: Dice-4 for damage. Average 3 damage. And Stormclad suffers -2 defense.

Charge attack, hitting on anything but snake eyes: Pow19: Straight dice for damage. 10 damage. Something on the Stormclad is crippled at this point.

Buy 2 more attacks: 14 more damage.

Average dice has the Reckoner doing 27 points of damage, assuming the Buckler remains functional for each hit(which it almost assuredly will not)

Plus the ancillary attack from a Vassal


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 AnomanderRake wrote:

Sining wrote:
Also gorax is 4 points and buffs one creature with the auto chance to frenzy. It's very different from the choir. Plus legion has a lot better fury management solos than circle.

Do Beast Handlers make Skorne better at warbeasts than Legion?

Menoth and Cygnar do 'Jack-heavy lists differently. Declaring one is better than the other doesn't seem sensible to me.

Cygnar does jack heavy lists that are mostly focused around characters. Menoth does jack heavy lists with just non-char units. I think that's a lot better than being character restricted.

To the OP. If people have the ways to deal with Single Wound Infantry then changing factions is not going to change that. Maybe changing how you play or what you field could be way to go. Your opponents like running single wound infantry removal, put down some MoW and Uhlans on the board and see if they can deal with lots of High Arm multi-wound troops.

As for Cygnar and the jacks they run it depends on the caster to be honest. The Nemo's, Kraye and Darius will have multiple jacks, the likes of the Caine's will defo only want one as for the rest it depends on what Jacks you want to run, the main reason why they are considered one jack casters is probably due to Stormwall.

With most Cygnar units you really need to apply some thought in their use and will need to support to get them to where they are going, which is why sometimes Cygnar gets labeled and Mercnar as generally the Merc units are more self sufficient for cheaper. Doesn't mean that our in-faction stuff not good you just need to use it correctly.

As for Menoth v Cygnar for Jacks Support.

The Reckoner is the best Jack in the game for it's points fact. As a Cygnar Player I would kill to have that in Jack our faction.

Both support their jacks in very different ways. Menoth have Excellent support buffs for their Jacks in the Choir and Vassal's, where as Cygnar's come from the caster. What Cygnar can do better is run Jacks outside of the Battle Group as we have access to Jnr, Jakes, Gaston, and 8 Jack Marshalls (2 of which are characters Arlan and Runewood).

Perhaps, it just feels very frustrating right now that it seems Khador can ONLY do single wound infantry, with nothing else to back it up since MoWs are lacking and we can't easily run multiple Warjacks without specific things (e.g. Karchev). Whenever I play Menoth I get my butt handed to me pretty easily because they have a lot of high armor that I have no way to deal with or because their multi wound infantry can beat mine (last game against them a unit of Cinerators trounced my MoW Shocktroopers like it was nothing and then had a Castigator use its POW12 AOE to finish them off).

Other factions seem to have infantry and other things, Khador really feels like it's just infantry and as long as people can easily deal with your infantry, you have nothing to fall back on.

It could just be that I need to develop my playstyle or tactics. I'd still like to expand factions though for when we start our next Journeyman League as that seems like a good time to do it. I've also been considering Skorne but I'm not sure I like the Hordes mechanics; if I was going to play Hordes I'd play Skorne, for sure, but I'm not totally sold on them.

Ret and Cygnar are in the same boat, okay Cygnar can get access to the OAC but that are pretty sub-par, but neither have in-faction multi-wound infantry.

To be fair Khador have some really good infantry in Kayazy, Doomies, IFP and WGDS.

What caster/list do you normally run?

gobbo76 wrote:
Ret and Cygnar are in the same boat, okay Cygnar can get access to the OAC but that are pretty sub-par, but neither have in-faction multi-wound infantry.

To be fair Khador have some really good infantry in Kayazy, Doomies, IFP and WGDS.

What caster/list do you normally run?

Usually Sorscha2 or Butcher1. For a tournament I paired Sorscha2 with Irusk2 because he seemed cool and I thought that he would be good for an anti-armor/Meat Mountain list. For that I ran:

Irusk2
- Juggernaut (Bonded)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Max) w/Black Dragon UA
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (Max)
Iron Fang Kovnik
Great Bears
Widowmakers
Winter Guard Mortar

My typical Sorscha2 list (anti-Cryx/Menoth specifically, but my go-to jack of all trades list) is:

Sorscha2
- Spriggan (Bonded)
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr
Winter Guard Infantry (Max) w/UA (no rockets)
Nyss Hunters (Max) w/Valachev
Kovnik Joe
Aiyana & Holt
Eyriss2

For my entire army I have:

Casters: Butcher1, Vlad1, Sorscha1, Sorscha2, Irusk2
Warjacks: Conquest, Spriggan, Beast 09, Juggernaut, Destroyer, Decimator, Kodiak
Units: Iron Fang Pikemen w/UA (Black Dragons), Shocktroopers, Winter Guard Death Star, Nyss Hunters, Greylord Outriders, Widowmakers, Great Bears, Mortar, Doom Reavers (just got them), Aiyana & Holt
Solos: Joe, Iron Fang Kovnik, War Dog, Valachev, Fenris (just got him), Eyriss1, Eyriss2, Sylys

Usually it seems like my infantry, even with buffs, get wiped out very easily. Menoth's Cleansers make mincemeat of my WGI with or without Iron Flesh, the tourney game I had with Irusk2 I had two Repenters beat down my IFP because they ignore Shield Wall, I had a game against Convergence where he had a row of guys with sprays that don't hit his own guys behind shieldwalled, multi-wound infantry with some kind of ranged defense buff as well, so I couldn't damage them from range and anything that went to them in melee got wiped out by the sprays.

I've purposely put off buying Butcher3 because he seems to be the faction's crutch and gets trotted out as the answer to virtually everything on the PP forums.

Are you sure that you are playing cleansers properly? Because he shouldn't be doing that much to your deathstar. WGI with bob and weave plus Iron Flesh means Def 17. Cleansers are RAT 5. They would need a 12 to hit you and even with 10 sprays hitting 5 men each that should only lead to 1.5 hits per turn (on average dice). The sprays don't set you on fire unless they hit the model and then it would probably just kill the model. If you tough the deathstar then you probably shouldn't be losing more than a man per turn.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Are you sure that you are playing cleansers properly? Because he shouldn't be doing that much to your deathstar. WGI with bob and weave plus Iron Flesh means Def 17. Cleansers are RAT 5. They would need a 12 to hit you and even with 10 sprays hitting 5 men each that should only lead to 1.5 hits per turn (on average dice). The sprays don't set you on fire unless they hit the model and then it would probably just kill the model. If you tough the deathstar then you probably shouldn't be losing more than a man per turn.

I haven't played that guy in a while but last time they did a CRA, so even the blast damage was enough to auto kill my WGI, because it was POW 12, halved for blast (so POW 6) plus X for the CRA so it still pushed it up to like POW10+, so everything under the blast template was getting killed (or forced Tough).

It's only a 4 inch AoE it shouldn't catch that many people under it. This isn't 40K where a unit has to bunch up spread your models around a bit. You have a commander with a command of 9 inches between him and the farthest model.

High-POW blasts are the hard counter to Stealth and high-DEF infantry. Spreading out your Winter Guard should be enough.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Usually Sorscha2 or Butcher1. For a tournament I paired Sorscha2 with Irusk2 because he seemed cool and I thought that he would be good for an anti-armor/Meat Mountain list. For that I ran:

If you want to crack bricks with the casters you have then butcher 1 is probably a better bet. That guy doesn't really care about armor between the feat and fury. Only thing that Irusk2 seems to bring to the table for anti-armor is Battle Lust, which I don't think is enough. He seems a lot better in the non heavy infantry match up.

Strangely I think you may fair better if you use Irusk2 for anti crx/infantry match up (that feat should do wonders when it comes to fighting the swam) and Sorcha2 as your anti armor (that feat is bonkers vs. jacks/beasts).

WayneTheGame wrote:
Usually it seems like my infantry, even with buffs, get wiped out very easily. Menoth's Cleansers make mincemeat of my WGI with or without Iron Flesh, the tourney game I had with Irusk2 I had two Repenters beat down my IFP because they ignore Shield Wall, I had a game against Convergence where he had a row of guys with sprays that don't hit his own guys behind shieldwalled, multi-wound infantry with some kind of ranged defense buff as well, so I couldn't damage them from range and anything that went to them in melee got wiped out by the sprays.

I've purposely put off buying Butcher3 because he seems to be the faction's crutch and gets trotted out as the answer to virtually everything on the PP forums.

First off I would really take the 3 WA with the winter guard, if you are going to death star it up might as well. That would mean probably dropping Eyriss 2 for 35 pts (add her back in at 50). Also the rockets will help the unit deal with the cleansers by picking off some of them at range. If then you also spread out you should be able to maybe lose a few guys before boosted sprays wipe out the cleansers. Also basic troopers (the 1 hit box type) with shield wall, it is often a trap to use shield wall. If you were fighting jacks (especially ones with chain weapons), you are better off charging into melee with battle lust up from Irusk then trying to use shield wall to save your guys. The only real thing that it will save you from is blast damage (and only if the center of the bast is in your front arc), and basic guns like pistols or rifles and only some of the time.

Rather than trying to make your single wound troopers last longer I would focus more on killing the enemy either at ranged or in melee and then using your defense spells and positioning to try to minimize your losses.

Edit: Also if you are going to tournaments buy Gorman, that guy as Chain Attack puts it is the best 2 pts in the game (and I stand behind that statement).

I've also been considering Skorne but I'm not sure I like the Hordes mechanics;

The warbeasts are far better than warjacks of the same points.

But the caster feats are generally less powerful (Saeryn legion feat is on a par with WM feat IMO) and the single wound infantry isn't as good as WGDS (Not much is to be fair).

Best of all is that Skorne medium infantry is actuially worthwhile as the Skorne casters support them well. Having an 8 boxes unit with DEF16 ARM24 vs shooting trotting up 7" per turn in shieldwall is pretty sweet (Defenders Ward and Krea animus used). Can give them concealment as well with gobber cloud if desired.

EDIT: You might want to see if you can borrow some armies to try them out. I was in a doubles pair of EHaley and PDenny (Yeah, not nice, I know) and I made some mess ups as I'd never played with them before. It's often easier to see how to beat a force by playing it yourself and seeing what gives you problems.


Gaz

Gazzor wrote:
EDIT: You might want to see if you can borrow some armies to try them out. I was in a doubles pair of EHaley and PDenny (Yeah, not nice, I know) and I made some mess ups as I'd never played with them before. It's often easier to see how to beat a force by playing it yourself and seeing what gives you problems.

That or find experienced players of the factions and sit down and ask them lots of questions. They might have different things to say than the Internet does, too.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Are you sure that you are playing cleansers properly? Because he shouldn't be doing that much to your deathstar. WGI with bob and weave plus Iron Flesh means Def 17. Cleansers are RAT 5. They would need a 12 to hit you and even with 10 sprays hitting 5 men each that should only lead to 1.5 hits per turn (on average dice). The sprays don't set you on fire unless they hit the model and then it would probably just kill the model. If you tough the deathstar then you probably shouldn't be losing more than a man per turn.

I haven't played that guy in a while but last time they did a CRA, so even the blast damage was enough to auto kill my WGI, because it was POW 12, halved for blast (so POW 6) plus X for the CRA so it still pushed it up to like POW10+, so everything under the blast template was getting killed (or forced Tough).

Remember that with the blast CRA he only gets to add the +1/+1 for each guy that is in range to the original target. And the range on the CRA AOE is only 8". I doubt he's getting more than 2-3 guys within 8" of the original target.

Cleansers are a really bad unit, so the fact they're giving you trouble most assuredly means he is playing them wrong.

 Grey Templar wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Are you sure that you are playing cleansers properly? Because he shouldn't be doing that much to your deathstar. WGI with bob and weave plus Iron Flesh means Def 17. Cleansers are RAT 5. They would need a 12 to hit you and even with 10 sprays hitting 5 men each that should only lead to 1.5 hits per turn (on average dice). The sprays don't set you on fire unless they hit the model and then it would probably just kill the model. If you tough the deathstar then you probably shouldn't be losing more than a man per turn.

I haven't played that guy in a while but last time they did a CRA, so even the blast damage was enough to auto kill my WGI, because it was POW 12, halved for blast (so POW 6) plus X for the CRA so it still pushed it up to like POW10+, so everything under the blast template was getting killed (or forced Tough).

Remember that with the blast CRA he only gets to add the +1/+1 for each guy that is in range to the original target. And the range on the CRA AOE is only 8". I doubt he's getting more than 2-3 guys within 8" of the original target.

Cleansers are a really bad unit, so the fact they're giving you trouble most assuredly means he is playing them wrong.

Could be. My meta ignores forums/tournaments so there are always people who will field what they want, and more often than not I find they tend to do decently even against me who tends to use variations of netlists.