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What's even more amazing is that according to the victim the gun was unloaded! That dog must be absolute dynamite, being able to load a pistol without any thumbs!
2008 RC East Afghanistan. KOP. Some poor NCO came in on a medevac with a bullet wound to his hand. Received the Purple Heart from being shot by one of his guy who fired the SAW at a aggressive dog who's owner was duped out from opium nearby. One of the rounds punched through the dog which in turn hit a rock which ricochet back at the platoon going through the NCO hand. Since the dog belonged to the "Insurgent" for the owner also had a RPG just in the grass by him the NCO was therefore wounded by enemy gunfire for the round that wounded him was "fired back" at him because of an Insurgent dog.
Yes yes it was one funny award to be read out loud. It was one creative wording to pass through the CoC to grant it
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Hordini wrote: I think you might be selling the founders a little short.
That's only because people to continue to overstate their importance to modern society.
People talk about the Founders as if they were a monolithic organization of men, all bound by the same set of rigid standards... but they weren't. They were a diverse (for the time at least) group of men with different ideas, views, and values. The fact that they were able to put to paper what they did and get that ratified by all thirteen states was pretty impressive in its own right. How they pictured the United States is important of course, but the world we live in today is nothing like the one they lived in in 1789. It's also wrong to ascribe the title of "genius" to the authors of the Constitution; of the 55 delegates at the Constitutional Convention, that word would only describe, at best, one or two of the men in attendance. Let us also not forget that three of the men present refused to sign the Constitution after it was drafted, so even in the end they all couldn't agree. Not to mention the fact that some of the most influential men that we see as the Founders weren't present at the Convention: Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, John Hancock, and John Adams. The bottom line is that none of us can say with any certainty what the authors of the Constitution would say about 21st century America so it's pointless to claim otherwise.
To me, the larger issue is that people revere the Constitution and then men that authored with an almost religious fanaticism to point that people talk about the document in ways no different that theologians do about the Bible or the Qur'an. This often coincides with a belief in the unerring correctness of the authors; an idea that if it were any other group of men at any other point in time in any other place in history, would be met with disdain because men are not perfect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/03 07:30:43
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Hordini wrote: Europeans don't want to have weapons, and that's cool for them. Most of them are comfortable with that and don't face all of the same issues that we do in the US that make owning a weapon a more attractive option for some people than simply relying on the police to protect you. When I was living in Europe I didn't feel the need to own or carry a weapon either.
And that must be where factors like culture and society come in. We have several countries here that have a lot of guns per capita (though not as much as the US), but gun crime is still low. Hell, we have Switzerland where reservists age 18-42 are by law required to keep their government-issue personal weapon at home!
We also have the media, ofc. If they need a US article and can choose between reporting a shooting or writing about the many places where no one has had to brandish a weapon for 40 years, we know which one they'll run. Everyone gets to read about the gun violence, few people even in the US read about that Inuit village where everyone except the cops get to carry guns. Village elders thought cops with guns will shoot people for being drunk and uncooperative so the solution is no guns for the cops. Bring the guy more booze until he falls asleep, he'll be properly ashamed and beg forgiveness when he wakes up. Truly, the USA is a huge country where you might find anything if you look. It's just easier and sells better to print bad news.
What's even more amazing is that according to the victim the gun was unloaded! That dog must be absolute dynamite, being able to load a pistol without any thumbs!
2008 RC East Afghanistan. KOP. Some poor NCO came in on a medevac with a bullet wound to his hand. Received the Purple Heart from being shot by one of his guy who fired the SAW at a aggressive dog who's owner was duped out from opium nearby. One of the rounds punched through the dog which in turn hit a rock which ricochet back at the platoon going through the NCO hand. Since the dog belonged to the "Insurgent" for the owner also had a RPG just in the grass by him the NCO was therefore wounded by enemy gunfire for the round that wounded him was "fired back" at him because of an Insurgent dog.
Yes yes it was one funny award to be read out loud. It was one creative wording to pass through the CoC to grant it
Once saw a video of some guys shooting a .50 cal rifle. One guy fires a shot, and suddenly his ear pro flies off his head. Turns out his shot ricochet back off a rock. A few inches to the side... quite the freak accident.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
What's even more amazing is that according to the victim the gun was unloaded! That dog must be absolute dynamite, being able to load a pistol without any thumbs!
2008 RC East Afghanistan. KOP. Some poor NCO came in on a medevac with a bullet wound to his hand. Received the Purple Heart from being shot by one of his guy who fired the SAW at a aggressive dog who's owner was duped out from opium nearby. One of the rounds punched through the dog which in turn hit a rock which ricochet back at the platoon going through the NCO hand. Since the dog belonged to the "Insurgent" for the owner also had a RPG just in the grass by him the NCO was therefore wounded by enemy gunfire for the round that wounded him was "fired back" at him because of an Insurgent dog.
Yes yes it was one funny award to be read out loud. It was one creative wording to pass through the CoC to grant it
Once saw a video of some guys shooting a .50 cal rifle. One guy fires a shot, and suddenly his ear pro flies off his head. Turns out his shot ricochet back off a rock. A few inches to the side... quite the freak accident.
Yeah, I've seen that video. That was both crazy bad luck and crazy good luck striking right at the same time.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
So, Matthew tried to start another thread and it got locked since there was already an open thread on the subject. I was in the middle of writing a post in response. Since he seems to be posting in good faith and trying to learn something about firearms in the US, I've decided to post my response here. I did my best to keep it civil. I'm not trying to stir anything up, and I can only speak for myself, but I feel like after taking him to task in this thread, if he's willing to ask some legitimate questions, I'm willing to give him an answer. Try to remember we're all friends here.
Matthew wrote: Since my last attempt at OT-ing failed miserably, I want to take the advice I learned with me. US citizens, I ask thee the following questions:
Exactly what process do you need to go through to buy a normal handgun, say a M1911?
Do you feel safe knowing that every single house (probably) in your neighborhood has a gun?
Or, knowing that atleast half the people on your bus/train are doing concealed carry?
Is it really worth it to have those not-so-strict gun laws, and then hear about shootings every single day?
As a Swede who has only seen weapons on parades, the concept of having to own a weapon to feel safe and protect yourself feels foreign and dumb. I myself trust my government enough to let them do all the protecting bits.
I appreciate that you're trying to educate yourself, so I'm going to do my best to answer your questions as best I can.
To buy a gun (any gun, not just a handgun): The process is going to vary by state. Some states have a mandatory waiting period. In my home state, I can purchase a gun (handgun or otherwise) and walk out with it the same day. However, to the best of my knowledge, in all states, you have to fill out a questionnaire and pass a background check to buy a gun in a gun shop. Even in states that allow you to buy a gun with no waiting period, you have to fill out the background check paperwork, and the salesman calls the background check in. If it is approved, you can buy the gun. If something pops, you'll either be denied the sale or told you have to wait for it to clear. Things like prior felonies and domestic violence misdemeanors will disqualify you from legally purchasing a firearm of any sort. If you buy a weapon to give to someone who you know is unable to purchase a weapon legally, that is considered a straw purchase. Straw purchases are illegal and carry stiff penalties.
I can all but guarantee you that not every house in my neighborhood has a gun, although this varies by region. In my hometown, I wouldn't make the same claim. That said, my hometown is basically a low-income rural area, and I feel safer and more comfortable in my hometown than pretty much anywhere else on the planet (and I've been a lot of places and can fit in well, outside of my home state and country).
I don't ride the bus or train where I currently live, but if I did I would literally bet you every cent that I own that less than half are concealed carrying. In fact, it's far less than half.
To me, it is absolutely worth it to have the right to own firearms. I can sleep at night knowing my wife has a chance to defend herself even if I am not around, because she has access to a firearm. I know that I have the ability to defend myself and my family, even if the police are half an hour away. I can supplement my family's food supply with meat when I hunt. We don't keep chickens anymore, but when I was a child we did. If we decide to do so again, I have the ability to deal with pests that would threaten them, such as raccoons, possums, and coyotes.
Literally every single adult male in my family owns at least one firearm (most of them own more than one), and not a single one of them is a criminal. Keep in mind that I also have friends who come from families in which not a single person owns a firearm. Experiences vary widely based on background and upbringing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 12:07:33
Guns are a pain in the arse to get a holdof in australia, as I believe you pretty muc have to report bullet count, type and usage to a parole officer every month, and if you fail to do so the firearm becomes forfeit. Ausralians also do not have the right to bear arms against a corrupt government. funnily enoguh, I'm not sure how knives work in other country, but in australia you an buy fishing knives that are pretty well machetes (known as shark knives or fish-gut knives) from our equivalent of a dollar store and carry it on your person at most times. personally, I just have a rather sharp screw driver in my pocket whenever I leave the house.
You most definitely can't carry a knife without reason, at least in QLD. I think you need to do more research before you come up with things like that. And as to the screwdriver, definitely make sure you can legally carry that before you go crowing about what you're carrying.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
I am suddenly very confused.
I will be back after consulting both my fisherman grandfather and the internet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: well I have no idea what happened there but I was very very wrong. That wa the stupidest thing I've said in the last two months.
also, the screw driver I carry with me is a very small palm-fitting one, the kind used to unscrew tiny toy cars.
I carry it primarily in case my school bag islocked to a fence (you wouldn't believe how common this happens) and otherwise simply just in case. I also carry a small torch, notepad and a small bag of coffee beans at all times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 13:15:14
the shrouded lord wrote: I am suddenly very confused.
I will be back after consulting both my fisherman grandfather and the internet.
No idea about Australia, but around here you're not supposed to be carrying knives or other dangerous tools in public without a proper reason. A construction worker with sharp stuff in his toolbelt is OK in a store, even if he's supposed to leave the belt in the car etc while buying a snack or coffee. Your fishing knife will pass if you're obviously on your way to/from fishing. Pen knives, swiss army knife, multi-tool? OK, usually. Switchblades, butterfly knives and any number of more-or-less silly martial arts weapons? No way, unless they're in your bag with the training suit and you're on your way to or from the dojo.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: To me, the larger issue is that people revere the Constitution and then men that authored with an almost religious fanaticism to point that people talk about the document in ways no different that theologians do about the Bible or the Qur'an. This often coincides with a belief in the unerring correctness of the authors; an idea that if it were any other group of men at any other point in time in any other place in history, would be met with disdain because men are not perfect.
Well said. I sometimes fall into the trap of thinking of the Constitution as etched in stone, and really, as something other than a template of laws as you put it above; but of course we've had little qualms previously about updating it to keep it in line with evolving social mores, and theres no reason that could not happen again.
motyak wrote: And as to the screwdriver, definitely make sure you can legally carry that before you go crowing about what you're carrying.
Even in the US, carrying around a screwdriver in some venues can get you arrested for possession of burglary tools. Most places require that plus intent but some don't.
You can most definitely get arrested in many areas in the US for carrying a knife, depending on the local code. Generally speaking I think most places here would consider a knife of any kind with a blade over 4 inches in a pocket here to be a carrying concealed weapon, which requires permitting just like a firearm.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/03 13:33:55
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Matthew wrote: Since my last attempt at OT-ing failed miserably, I want to take the advice I learned with me. US citizens, I ask thee the following questions:
1. Exactly what process do you need to go through to buy a normal handgun, say a M1911?
2. Do you feel safe knowing that every single house (probably) in your neighborhood has a gun?
3. Or, knowing that atleast half the people on your bus/train are doing concealed carry?
I4. s it really worth it to have those not-so-strict gun laws, and then hear about shootings every single day?
As a Swede who has only seen weapons on parades, the concept of having to own a weapon to feel safe and protect yourself feels foreign and dumb. I myself trust my government enough to let them do all the protecting bits.
1. Varies by county and state. Generally you submit to a background check through a federal database and fill out some forms. Some places it is more difficult (or impossible).
2. Yep. Granted, I live in a rural area. Hearing the neighbors cap a deer on their property, or target shoot, or blow away a rattler or water moccasin happens.
3. Don't ride a bus or train. I suspect you are again using hyperbole. I would bet a paycheck there are not many busses (and less trains) with 50% concealed carry unless it is a group of off duty cops riding it. Heck, I would bet any random bus search nets you less than 5% carrying, and less than that legal. But the reality is even if it was 100% all the time every time, Who Cares? If they are abiding by the law you NEVER see or know they are carrying.
4. Yep. Except regardless of your hyperbole, the laws are strict. Disobey them and get caught and you wind up in a world of hurt.
You can most definitely get arrested in many areas in the US for carrying a knife, depending on the local code. Generally speaking I think most places here would consider a knife of any kind with a blade over 4 inches in a pocket here to be a carrying concealed weapon, which requires permitting just like a firearm.
Everyplace I have lived considers all kinds of things 'weapons' when applying concealed or open carry laws. Knives, stun guns/tazers, pepper spray and more are often covered by these laws.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 14:01:10
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Matthew wrote: Since my last attempt at OT-ing failed miserably, I want to take the advice I learned with me. US citizens, I ask thee the following questions:
1. Exactly what process do you need to go through to buy a normal handgun, say a M1911?
2. Do you feel safe knowing that every single house (probably) in your neighborhood has a gun?
3. Or, knowing that atleast half the people on your bus/train are doing concealed carry?
I4. s it really worth it to have those not-so-strict gun laws, and then hear about shootings every single day?
As a Swede who has only seen weapons on parades, the concept of having to own a weapon to feel safe and protect yourself feels foreign and dumb. I myself trust my government enough to let them do all the protecting bits.
As for PA (Pennsylvania):
1. PA is a cash and carry state. We go into the store, pick out the gun we want, they call in the background check, and IF it's a pass you take the gun home same day.
2. I live in middle of nowhere, so I'd be comfortable saying everyone in my neighborhood (all 20 houses in 5 miles) owns a gun. Farms and livestock need to be protected from coyotes (we have been getting more and more every year), and we have a gun club about 10 miles down the road with a range to shoot at.
3. To get a concealed carry permit you have to submit an application to your local sheriff's office, where they look into you (even check your facebook page). A few weeks later if they can't find a reason to deny you you get a legit license in the mail. Also, most trains near me to into Philadelphia, where conceal carry is illegal (you can open carry if you have a CCP, which is a horrible idea).
4. Our gun laws work fine, its the people enforcing them that are lax. And YOU hear about shootings every day. I hear about people dying from car accidents, poisoning, stabbings, and ceramic squirrel related incidents.
On topic though. I feel that purse carrying is a poor decision personally. It was tragic, but easily preventable.
feeder wrote: Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.
Matthew wrote: Since my last attempt at OT-ing failed miserably, I want to take the advice I learned with me. US citizens, I ask thee the following questions:
Exactly what process do you need to go through to buy a normal handgun, say a M1911?
Do you feel safe knowing that every single house (probably) in your neighborhood has a gun?
Or, knowing that atleast half the people on your bus/train are doing concealed carry?
Is it really worth it to have those not-so-strict gun laws, and then hear about shootings every single day?
As a Swede who has only seen weapons on parades, the concept of having to own a weapon to feel safe and protect yourself feels foreign and dumb. I myself trust my government enough to let them do all the protecting bits.
The following is my understanding pecifically concerning the State of Indiana, and from someone who moved to the US from a country without a culture of (lawful) firearm ownership.
1. The process to buy a handgun is that you go to the Federal Firearm Licensed store. There you can peruse the selection on offer. Some stores may have a range attached so you can rent the same model as the one you are interested in and try it prior to purchase. When your selection has been made the store clerk with have you fill out a form known as 4773. The purpose of this form is to determine if you are a "proper person" for the purposes of firearm ownership. Lying on this form is a Federal offense and carries a lengthy jail term of up to 10 years, and a possible fine of $250,000
Once you have completed this form the store clerk will phone up the FBI to conduct a background check through a system known as the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) for short. All sales of firearms are subject to approval through this system. If a gun store sells to someone who fails a background check then they have committed a felony and will have some not insignificant explaining to do to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF)
2. Does every house in my street have a gun? Probably not. Do I feel safer? That is entirely subjective, but I can say that I do not feel that any of my neighbours are a threat to me or my family.
3. I don't take the bus or train on any sort of consistent basis, but the times that I have taken it I have been unconcerned as to whether or not someone may have had a firearm. What I am more concerned about are the behaviours exhibited by others on the vehicle. That determines whether or not I perceive them as a threat, not what inanimate object they possess.
As an aside Indiana goes not issue concealed carry permits. You may apply for a 4 year handgun permit, or a lifetime carry permit. Whether or not the licence holder carries the firearm openly or concealed is at their discretion, and not proscribed by law. In the almost three years I have lived in Indiana I have seen open carry once.
4. I would dis-agree that the gun laws are not so strict. Failure to comply with them is a Federal offense, a felony, and carries significant jail time. Those in Indiana who have permits have been adjudicated to be of good character, good mental health, not felons, are not domestic abusers, and are not alcohol or drug abusers. Do shootings occur daily, based on the statistics yes. But often these shootings are carried out by those who are not "proper" and who are statutorily disbarred from possessing a firearm.
Some miscellaneous points I want to take this time to clear up some other misconceptions that often get repeated during talks about firearms.
1. "Anyone can buy a machine gun/assault rifle and walk out with it the same day"
This is patently untrue. To clarify matters first an assault rifle is typically considered to be a select fire rifle, that is chambered in an intermediate cartridge, and fires from a detachable magazine. Many journalists and other commentators wrongly claim that an AR15 is an assault rifle. While it matches two of the three criteria it is not select fire. The fire control system on an AR15 limits the selector switch to 'Safe' or 'Semi-automatic'. It cannot fire bursts, or in automatic settings. An AR15 is no different to any other semi automatic rifle on the market.
To return to the topic at hand machine guns/assault rifles are not readily available, and a purchaser must obtain permission from the ATF and buy the firearm from a Class 3 Dealer. There is a very long, laborious process for the purchaser to go through that involves fees, more background checks, finger printing, photographing, and the sign off from the chief of your local police.
Robert recently posted an article on a question posed to a guest by CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer:
“On Thursday, CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer asked guest [lawyer] Jeffrey Toobin why police weren’t instructed to ‘shoot to injure, instead of kill,’ talkingpointsmemo.com reports. “Blitzer’s questions arose during a discussion on the unfurling conflict in Ferguson, Mo. over the fatal police shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown. ‘They often shoot to kill,’ Blitzer said of police. ‘Why do they have to shoot to kill? Why can’t they shoot a warning shot in the air, scare someone off if they think they’re in danger. Why can’t they shoot to, injure, shall we say? Why do they have to shoot to kill?’”
Blitzer’s question is, sadly, all too common . . .
Americans are treated to a steady stream of good guys purposely and casually wounding bad guys, usually in the shoulder. On TV and in the movies, such beyond-Olympic-level shooting always disarms and incapacitates the bad guy, and when the good guy is similarly wounded, they are barely inconvenienced and heal with amazing speed.
Not only is this sort of shooting incredibly dangerous to good guys and innocent bystanders, it’s almost always legally disastrous. In addition, any survivable gunshot wound may have life-long health implications. As regular readers may remember from an earlier article, one shoots to stop an attacker, to immediately–to whatever degree that is possible–cause them to cease the hostile actions that made the use of deadly force legally permissible. For the purposes of this article, we’ll assume that all legal burdens have been met. The good guy, under the laws in force when and where he has to shoot, is legally in the right when he pulls the trigger. But how is he going to accomplish his purpose: stopping the bad guy?
There are three primary means of stopping a human being:
Neural damage
Breaking the skeleton
Exsanguination
There are, however, many other considerations.
1) Neural Damage: causing trauma to the brain usually causes immediate cessation of hostile action. In fact, SWAT marksmen try for a brain stem shot whenever possible. They try to hit a hostage-taker exactly where the brain and brain stem meet, at the base of the rear of the skull. If properly placed, a bullet to this spot will cause the potential killer to drop as though a light switch had been thrown. Even if they have their finger on the trigger of a gun, they will not be able to pull it.
Unfortunately, this area is a very small target. In fact, relatively speaking, the human head is also a small target, particularly if it’s moving at all. Notice too that I’m talking about a highly trained marksman making the shot with a scoped, highly accurate rifle, almost always with the benefit of a spotter and from a supported position. Accurately shooting a handgun at the same target, even at close range, is much more demanding.
In addition, the target will seldom present the back of his skull to the shooter and stand still long enough for a perfect shot to be made. Marksmen commonly have to estimate where that tiny spot is while shooting from the front, side, above or below, or various angles of the same.
2) Breaking the skeleton: while breaking a femur or the pelvis, for example, will cause most people to drop to the ground, they may very well still be capable of pulling a trigger. And if so, have merely been rendered less mobile, not stopped. Making such shots with any degree of reliability with a handgun is exceedingly difficult, not only because such targets are small, but also because people move more or less constantly and the precise location of a major, load-bearing bone in a given person’s leg may be difficult, at best, to determine. It’s also particularly difficult because, compared with rifle ammunition, most handgun ammunition lacks the power to reliably break large bones.
3) Exsanguination: someone shot in an artery, or even the heart, may have up to three minutes of useful consciousness if they are truly determined to kill you regardless of the damage they suffer in the attempt. However, once sufficient blood is lost, the resulting drop in blood pressure will inevitably lead to unconsciousness and ultimately death.
Of course, a combination of these three primary effects may be more effective and faster in stopping hostile action.
Fortunately, such matters are not only physical, but psychological. Many people, upon receiving even an easily survivable gunshot wound, immediately drop and cease hostile action due to the “OMG! I’ve been shot!” response. Others–thankfully relatively few–may absorb ridiculous numbers of bullets which might slow, but not stop them, as they try to continue their deadly attacks. This is frequently assisted by drugs present in their system. Such people eventually succumb to one or more of these effects, but “eventually” is not helpful or comforting if they are attacking you.
The best course of action is to aim for “center mass,” or the part of the torso at or around the sternum, and fire enough rounds to force the attacker to stop. It’s the cumulative affect of blood vessel damage, neural shock, and psychological shock that will have the greatest effect, therefore more than one round may be necessary.
Keep in mind that it is always a good idea, even if you cannot avoid or escape a potential deadly force situation, to do your best to avoid shooting. Always remember that when the justification to shoot ends, the shooting immediately ends.
You must never think about “shooting to wound,” let alone try to do it. The law doesn’t require it, and it will be highly likely to backfire for several significant reasons. Obtaining the desired stopping effect with a shot that inflicts only a non-mortal wound is highly unlikely and could conceivably enrage an attacker who will then press an attack he might have otherwise abandoned. The necessary physical damage and psychological effect is simply not there, and making such a shot accurately is highly unlikely.
In fight-or-flight situations, among the first abilities human beings lose–which accompany time distortion, tunneling and hearing loss–is fine muscle control. This makes it very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to formulate the intention to shoot someone effectively in a small portion of the body so as to immediately disable them, to say nothing of actually carrying out that intention. For most people, it’s simply physically impossible. There are many documented incidents of police officers–people supposedly highly trained in marksmanship and the use of deadly force–emptying their handguns at criminals doing the same from ridiculously close range. When the gunsmoke cleared, both weren’t touched; every round missed. Hitting center mass will be more than hard enough, but with proper training and practice, attainable.
An additional concern is that in the heat of battle, many people suffer serious wounds, but are unaware of it until the danger has passed. Despite suffering multiple gunshot wounds that might eventually kill them, they didn’t so much as feel the bullets hit them. Some people may be so high on drugs they’re incapable of feeing anything. Shooting an arm or leg will likely do nothing more than make a dangerous felon who’s intent on killing you somewhat less mobile, but no less deadly. Hitting center mass will maximize the probability of quickly stopping a dangerous attacker—whether they feel it or not.
Also, substantial legal liability may attach. If you were so cool and detached that you could shoot someone in the knee, did you really have sufficient reason to shoot them in the first place? If you really thought that you were in mortal danger, why did you take the time to shoot them someplace that any reasonable person should know wouldn’t reliably stop them?
Yes, stopping them will likely result in their death, but you didn’t intend to cause their death. You intended only to stop them from causing yours. That they subsequently died is regrettable, but they made that choice and forced it upon you. You aren’t the attacker, but an innocent victim who will be affected for the rest of your life by the action they brutally forced on you.
In all cases, if you shoot at all, you shoot to stop, and you accomplish this by delivering a sufficient volume of accurate fire to that part of the body most likely to cause them to stop. When the threat has stopped, you immediately stop.
At this point, you may find yourself experiencing some degree of revulsion. If so, good for you. You have a conscience. I can’t say often enough that no moral, rational human being wants to harm or kill another. Violence is cruel, nasty, hateful and bloody, but the choice is simple and stark: do you prefer to be alive and unharmed, or bleeding, perhaps dying on the ground, at the mercy of someone cruel and inhuman enough to attack you? Which alternative would you prefer for those you love? Which of these outcomes is morally superior?
Deadly force encounters aren’t scripted scenes in movies. They’re as deadly serious as any human interaction can be, and the loser frequently winds up assuming ambient temperature. Leave shooting to wound to the movies. An action hero’s job is to sell popcorn, and they don’t have to aim and shoot under pressure. They can afford the luxury of shooting to wound. You can’t, regardless of what Wolf Blitzer thinks.
After a self-defense shooting where the aggressor dies, we often hear the same questions asked time and again.
“He didn’t have a weapon. Why was he shot in the chest/head?”
“He only had a bat/knife/fist. Why wasn’t he shot in the shoulder/arm?”
“Why didn’t they just shooting him in the arm/leg?”
When specifically discussing a shooting involving a uniformed law enforcement officer with his duty belt full of tools, we often hear, “Why didn’t they use pepper spray/nightstick/taser instead of a gun?”
One person in a unique position to answer that question is Michael Yon.
Yon is a former Green Beret who left the service after killing a much larger man in a bar fight in self-defense with a single punch.
He then worked private security, including Michael Jackson’s personal security detail.
He is best known, however, as a combat journalist.
Yon rose to prominence during the hottest parts of the Iraq war nearly a decade ago, when he embedded with American and British combat units who experienced heavy fighting. During one battle particular battle in Mosul, Iraq, Yon witnessed an American officer and an insurgent both take multiple serious hits and keep fighting as Yon kept snapping photos.
The ensuing article, Gates of Fire, is one of Yon’s most widely read articles (and is well worth a read).
Yon went on to spend more time embedded in combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan than any other journalist in either war. He’s seen a lot of fighting.
Here are his thoughts on “shooting to wound.”
Ferguson: Why did the officer not shoot Brown in the legs?
Many people are innocently asking this question. The answer could go on for pages, but to be succinct, a couple handfuls of reasons:
1) This ain’t the movies
2) Most police do not fire their weapons much. Most are not great shots.
3) He would have to be an incredible shot to be crazy enough to fire wounding shots.
4) Nearly all firefights are “stress shoots.” The other guy is moving. Heart is beating fast, often out of breath. The officer in Ferguson had just been punched in the face and had been in a wrestling match for his pistol, according to him.
5) Bullets that miss can hit someone else.
6) You always are low on ammo, and you do not want to waste a single bullet.
7) Time spent reloading is dangerous
8) I have seen many people shot who kept fighting. Shot with weapons far more powerful than any officer’s pistol. Many police and combat troops have seen this and will verify.
9) Police and Soldiers never train to shoot to wound. (None that I know of.) All combat shots are center mass of any part of the target that you can see. If you see only a foot. Shoot the foot. If you see a chest — aim for the middle. That is the way troops and police train. If the officer is pointing his pistol at someone, he is one click away from going lethal. There is no in between.
10) This ain’t the movies.
During the firefight at the link below, I was photographing when two people were shot a total of seven times. Two men, shot seven times. (US Soldier three times, al Qaeda four times with M4 point blank.)
After the US Soldier was hit three times in front of me, he continued to fight well. He was hit badly at nearly point blank. The al Qaeda terrorist was hit 4x times. He was still standing trying to shoot. One shot took off a testicle, and then he got tackled by a US Soldier, and despite being hit 4x, he then engaged in aggressive hand to hand combat.
Again, this ain’t the movies…
Police officers and self-defense shooters all learn the same thing: you shoot to stop the threat. The best way to stop that threat is to put bullets in the largest possible part of the body (typically, the upper torso). If that fails to stop the threat, you then rely on your “failure drill” training and move to the head, and if that fails, the pelvis. You “work the problem” by moving your shots from the torso to the head and pelvis.
Killing isn’t a goal, but it is often a side effect of an aggressor who refuses to comply with lawful commands and who continues to demand ballistic attention.
If you don’t want to be shot, you shouldn’t attack other human beings, especially those who are armed.
They will shoot to stop the threat.
Some graphic content, discretion is advised
I hope this helps
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/03 18:41:41
Yeah the whole "shoot to wound" thing is really unrealistic.
No police force in the world trains for that, and there are very valid reasons for it. An olympic quality marksman might be able to do something like that reliably in a situation that tense, but even a well trained policeman is more than likely just going to miss his target- which is dangerous to everyone else in the vicinity. Aiming for the centre body mass (ie. the biggest target) is the safest thing for the officer and anyone else in the area.
Good post Dreadclaw. Great to see the effort people put into having a civil discussion.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I would actually say Olympic shooters would be less likely to be able to pull such a thing off. Olympic shooters train in controlled environments and aren't expecting to have to shoot at people. The absolute opposite of a life and death situation.
If people who actually expect to have to shoot at hostile people can't do it, nobody can.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Yeah fair enough. I meant that only extremely skilled shooters would be able to do that. Your average soldier or policeman isn't extremely highly skilled, and probably doesn't have the time to dedicate to becoming that skilled, even if they had the natural aptitude. That's why I said "olympic quality" rather than "olympic". Once saw an olympic markswoman shooting clay pigeons with a handgun, which is pretty spectacularly impressive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 18:49:14
A bus full of people, did nothing but try to run away. I'm not attacking the people, just saying that even with dozens of others around, know one did anything for someone holding a knife. This same thing would happen in Sweden, Britain, etc...
Would someone with a concealed handgun stopped that? Maybe. They at least would have had a chance to, instead of no chance at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 18:54:12
Matthew wrote: Since my last attempt at OT-ing failed miserably, I want to take the advice I learned with me. US citizens, I ask thee the following questions:
Exactly what process do you need to go through to buy a normal handgun, say a M1911?
Do you feel safe knowing that every single house (probably) in your neighborhood has a gun?
Or, knowing that atleast half the people on your bus/train are doing concealed carry?
Is it really worth it to have those not-so-strict gun laws, and then hear about shootings every single day?
As a Swede who has only seen weapons on parades, the concept of having to own a weapon to feel safe and protect yourself feels foreign and dumb. I myself trust my government enough to let them do all the protecting bits.
- Honestly, I've never bought one. Others can comment much more easily. From reputation, you have to qualify to be able to per your state's regulations surrounding it, which involves background checks and sometimes a license specifically for gun ownership, and then there's usually a waiting period with the premise that you can't just buy one out of anger and then waste the guy who pissed you off.
- I don't necessarily feel safe because of it, however I don't necessarily feel unsafe. It's just a thing. Guns are mentally put into the same category as cars and power tools for me. They are bought to serve a very specific purpose for the owner, and while dangerous, at the end of the day, they're just tools.
- This is an interesting one. I know morons who I work with who carry guns in to work though that's a HUGE nono. They're morons apart from that too. I'm less cool about that, but they don't make noise about wanting to use them, so I don't let it get to me much. Like if a guy carried his reciprocating saw around with him everywhere because it "made him safe", I just kind of nod and smile and think "ooookay dude, whatever you gotta do for yourself." To your point of on a bus or train? It's a public enough area, so no, don't really dwell on it much. They might be carrying. They might not. At that point, the more carrying, possibly the better, because then people of that mindset will be less inclined to act. I don't think I've seen a gun in public other than holstered to a cop in the 7 years I've lived in St. Louis, which is supposed to be all scary and crime ridden. It's also the capital of Missouri. I bring that up because a running joke I've heard about Missouri is that you're basically handed your first gun when you get your driver's license.
- Honestly, sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. Not because shootings happen every single day, just because I tire of the agenda of the press blowing it up so much more largely than it should. What I mean by that is that they don't care about the loss of human life. If they did, they'd be covering the almost 100 people a day that die in this country from car accidents, not the one woman who got shot under ironic and possibly irresponsible means a week ago.
- To your final comment about trusting the government, we have a much less hands off approach to cops than I wonder if you do. To relate an anecdote, I called in a domestic dispute that was going on with my neighbor. He was physically assaulting his girlfriend in their car, outside their apartment across from a crowded bar. I was walking home after a walk and heard it, so I called the cops and sat out on my balcony telling the 911 dispatcher about how I'm watching him actually hitting her and that this seemed pretty serious. They took 40 minutes to show up. I'm not saying that a gun would have made that situation better; it wouldn't have. But I'm saying that it took them 40 minutes to show for a woman being beaten. I'm not enough of a tough guy to get involved, and apparently neither was anyone else at the crowded bar, so no one was heroes here, but I don't think the anyone would have stepped up or the cops would have gotten there faster if she was getting cut. And this was in a more upscale area that is supposed to get patrolled often. My point is that sometimes you have to have the means to protect yourself (here, at least) because ultimately, someone might be able to arrest the criminal involved, but they're not going to show up in time to stop the crime from happening.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 19:49:57
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Even though shootings make the headlines, they're still incredibly rare events. And school shootings are miniscule even just within total firearm deaths/injuries.
In the US in 2010, 480,000 people died from smoking. Only 11,068 people died in a Firearm Homicide in that same year.
43 times more people die because of smoking(including second hand smoke) than are killed with firearms. This is despite very aggressive campaigns of education and general public knowledge that smoking kills.
The number of firearm deaths is miniscule, only 3.6 per 100,000. Its not a problem in any way, shape, or form.
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Saying it's not a problem in any way shape or form is hyperbole. Rather, it's a problem you are willing to accept vs. the benefits of having many firearms.
Da Boss wrote: Saying it's not a problem in any way shape or form is hyperbole. Rather, it's a problem you are willing to accept vs. the benefits of having many firearms.
The risk of firearms have been ORM'd, and found to be acceptable.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Da Boss wrote: Saying it's not a problem in any way shape or form is hyperbole. Rather, it's a problem you are willing to accept vs. the benefits of having many firearms.
Not really.
When the total number of deaths for one cause is roughly the same as another cause's margin of error you can safely say its not a problem.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Well, any cause of preventable death is a problem. It just depends whether you think it is a big problem or a small problem, surely.
Unless you're of the opinion that we have too many humans and therefore some of them dying in preventable situations is a good thing. Which is a fair cop.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/03 21:41:39
the shrouded lord wrote: I am suddenly very confused.
I will be back after consulting both my fisherman grandfather and the internet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: well I have no idea what happened there but I was very very wrong. That wa the stupidest thing I've said in the last two months.
also, the screw driver I carry with me is a very small palm-fitting one, the kind used to unscrew tiny toy cars.
I carry it primarily in case my school bag islocked to a fence (you wouldn't believe how common this happens) and otherwise simply just in case. I also carry a small torch, notepad and a small bag of coffee beans at all times.
In australia you're allowed to defend yourself but not protect yourself. The former being a reactive as a situation occurs, the latter being a proactive to better defend yourself should a situation occur. Once you start carrying anything with the intent to use it to defend yourself at a future date, you're breaking the law. That's why things like capsicum spray, tasers, etc, are illegal for private citizens.
Grey Templar wrote: Even though shootings make the headlines, they're still incredibly rare events. And school shootings are miniscule even just within total firearm deaths/injuries.
This line here sits poorly with me. Is one school shooting not one too many?
Saying it doesn’t matter, because the number of school shootings is low in comparison to other cases of deaths, doesn’t really make these horrible incidents any less bad. I mean for Christ sake, people have had their kids murdered in those shootings.
I don’t really care for the pro vs con gun debate in America, because it’s not my business to care about it. However, it does make my stomach churn a bit when people so causally hand wave away these tragic incidents as if they didn’t even matter.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.