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Are Death Company with Jump Packs and Bolters viable with the new codex.
I was thinking they'd make a great annoyance unit,the bolters meaning they can dish out some firepower even when outside of charge range,meaning they aren't totally wasted when watching midfield objectives for a turn or 2.
So how are they compared to CCW/Pistol DC? What does Dakka think?
Also should i add a special weapon to the DC unit (and if so which one)?

EDIT: is this the right board or should it be in tactics? Not sure since i'm new to this,if i'm wrong can somebody move it please,thanks in advance.

You did post it in Tactics, so it's the right spot.

But ask yourself a question! You are paying a lot of points for stuff like Rage, two Attacks and Furious Charge.
So why would you want to play shooty with them?
The only time I would ever put Bolters on them is when they carry a specialist weapon.

Special Weapons are always a good idea.
Think of stuff like Power Fists. Power weapons or Hammers.
The small weapons I find useless, I'm going to charge anyway and Inferno Pistols have a bad range.

Yeah, it's a thing you can do, but I don't.

You'll lose the extra attack for having two CCW weapons, which is generally considered as being very useful for jump pack infantry.

On the other hand, it might be fun to use the JP move to always stay in rapid fire range of a unit and dish out some bolter goodness....I can see myself playing that for fun a few times.

Thanks for the info peeps!
Seems like i won't be running bolter DC after all.
I thought 2 shots might be better than one extra attack but the extra initiative and Strength are indeed of far better use.

PS. i posted this in YMDC,if the mod that moved the thread sees this: Thank you!

Kangodo wrote:
You did post it in Tactics, so it's the right spot.

Actually the mods around here are quite good at moving threads...

Also, try a level 2 sanguinary libby in with DC. It worked great my first time out. All those close range powers are perfect for DC. You can get a 5++ save or +1 attack from that tree. And at worst, you quicken a power fist DC guy. Extra fisting! You can also cause many xenos to run off the board with fear the darkness.

No, no, no. DC jump pack bolters are the absolute best way to play them. DC are relentless so you can rapid fire a target and then assault it. All you lose is one Attack in melee, but gain an extra shot in the shooting phase. That extra shot can prevent attacks from ever hitting the DC in melee by killing a model or two before the assault phase even begins.

Dedicated assault units aren't going to run away from some extra Bolter fire in the shooting phase, but you have a better chance of removing more of those enemy dedicated assault models before they have a chance to strike you in assault. Take the Bolter every time.

But killing his dudes means you have to roll higher on the charge-range.
And do you want to know what is better than 1 additional S4-shot? One additional attack at S5, I5.

Your idea might have worked in the old Codex, where you didn't want Jump packs and where they attacked at I4.
But now? No, Bolters are a thing for Specialist Weapons.

In comparison.. Better range Str 4 ap5 1,2 Shots, or 3,4 or 5 attacks, Str 5 BTW 4 and some Str 10 ap 2...

Kangodo wrote:
But killing his dudes means you have to roll higher on the charge-range.
And do you want to know what is better than 1 additional S4-shot? One additional attack at S5, I5.

You're only at I5 if running that special detachment, though.

Kangodo wrote:
But killing his dudes means you have to roll higher on the charge-range.
And do you want to know what is better than 1 additional S4-shot? One additional attack at S5, I5.

Your idea might have worked in the old Codex, where you didn't want Jump packs and where they attacked at I4.
But now? No, Bolters are a thing for Specialist Weapons.

One additional CC Attack at S5 is inferior to 1 additional S4 attack in shooting. The shooting attack can remove potential attacks back at you every time, while the S5 attack removes a threat only some of the time. That Iniative 5 isn't helping to remove threats in the Eldar codex. They strike with you or ahead of you so an extra shot in shooting is superior. Same for most of the best combat units in the a daemon Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 winterwind85 wrote:
In comparison.. Better range Str 4 ap5 1,2 Shots, or 3,4 or 5 attacks, Str 5 BTW 4 and some Str 10 ap 2...

I'm not sure what you are saying here. If 10 DC shoot bolters they gain 10 extra shots in the shooting phase. If they have pistols they gain up to (not everyone gets into assault all the time, sometimes the stragglers are out of range) 10 extra attacks. It's not 1,2 shots for 4,5 attacks. Its a 1-1 trade off.

Bolter DC have 4 str5 attacks on the charge each. Isn't that good enough and not much different than 5 against almost all targets?

Bolter DC with powerfist (your source of str10 ap2 attacks) get the same number of CC attacks whether they have a pistol of a Bolter.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
But killing his dudes means you have to roll higher on the charge-range.
And do you want to know what is better than 1 additional S4-shot? One additional attack at S5, I5.

Your idea might have worked in the old Codex, where you didn't want Jump packs and where they attacked at I4.
But now? No, Bolters are a thing for Specialist Weapons.

One additional CC Attack at S5 is inferior to 1 additional S4 attack in shooting. The shooting attack can remove potential attacks back at you every time, while the S5 attack removes a threat only some of the time. That Iniative 5 isn't helping to remove threats in the Eldar codex. They strike with you or ahead of you so an extra shot in shooting is superior. Same for most of the best combat units in the a daemon Codex.

I have to agree, killing before CC is preferable. I was unaware that DC had relentless, or I would have factored that into my earlier comment (I play vanilla and SW). That is....dangerous. I suppose the flip side of the coin is that it depends how fast you kill your opponent-if you're locked into multiple rounds you won't get as much benefit from one shot before combat, wheras the CC attacks would pile up. Still, bolter seems like the better all-round choice; at least then you can shoot from further than charge distance at a unit for a turn or two before engaging, whittle them down that way.

You do run the risk of killing enough enemies to make your charge less likely, and youre worse in prolonged combats.

I will never run bolters on DC because I care about their prolonged combat ability, and don't care about a few extra bolter shots. The way I run them, I am never going to use the range of the bolter because I"m trying to cause as much havoc with Sanguinus as possible.

The loss of attacks will be felt in subsequent rounds of combat more than the first. However bolters make the unit less one dimensional without losing its combat specialisation. Options are good, even DC don't always want or are always able to close with an enemy. The other thing to consider is BA armies are usually short on ranged weaponry, due partly to the focus on assaults and dreads among other things. Anyway I would personally start by giving any model packing a hammer a bolter then adjust from there.

I like Bolter armed DC. You are able to provide some attacks at longer range, offsetting the lost attacks in CC. If I can put a couple wounds from bolters on a target the turn before I charge them, there's less overwatch to worry about, and less firepower directed at them in the turn prior to the charge.

Also, charge range isn't guaranteed. Double tapping bolters might be the only damage you do to a squad, if you roll poorly for your distance.

With their reduced WS, you'll typically hit MEQ on 4's now, so shooting them on 3's makes the bonus strength a bit of a wash, on the turn you charge. The AP from the weapons might even put the extra bolter shot ahead in terms of damage production, depending on the target.

On the whole, bolters prevent them from being unable to inflict harm against mobile targets that might just slide out of range every turn. At least you can pop off some shots at those bikers while they jink away from you. :(

Bolters provide additional tactics beyond smash-face. That's still your ideal plan, but sometimes ideal plans don't work out, so it's good to have a plan B. Hell, they can score objectives now, so they might just set up and fire away for a couple of turns, providing a thorough deterrent to approaching their objective.

Power fist with furious charge is S9 AP2, noobs. (4*2)+1. The order of operations in the real world and in 40k!

The bolter being fire means you cannot charge as well, so you lose all the death companies close combat attacks if you fire even a single bolter. And if you are not close enough to charge, why aren't you running!?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Power fist with furious charge is S9 AP2, noobs. (4*2)+1. The order of operations in the real world and in 40k!

The bolter being fire means you cannot charge as well, so you lose all the death companies close combat attacks if you fire even a single bolter. And if you are not close enough to charge, why aren't you running!?

Deathy Company have Relentless, noob. That can fire Rapid Fire and still charge.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Power fist with furious charge is S9 AP2, noobs. (4*2)+1. The order of operations in the real world and in 40k!

The bolter being fire means you cannot charge as well, so you lose all the death companies close combat attacks if you fire even a single bolter. And if you are not close enough to charge, why aren't you running!?

Deathy Company have Relentless, noob. That can fire Rapid Fire and still charge.

Do they now? Well then, if they are free, put them With power fists!

Still doesn't forgive the abhorrent failure at math. I've seen it multiple times today! Even if it wasn't you, for shame.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Power fist with furious charge is S9 AP2, noobs. (4*2)+1. The order of operations in the real world and in 40k!

The bolter being fire means you cannot charge as well, so you lose all the death companies close combat attacks if you fire even a single bolter. And if you are not close enough to charge, why aren't you running!?

Death Company are relentless noob, meaning they can shoot rapid fire guns & assault. See? Unnecessary name calling does nothing to strengthen your point after all.

I'd run Bolters on Death Company only if you include a few Power Fists. No matter the amount or quality, sometimes AP - isn't enough to kill a unit with any saves worth a dam. But throw in a few Fists, your unit will be much better at killing 3+/2+ saves because the extra saves your forcing while the Fists work at full efficiency (They don't get +1 attack for the Pistol).

Also, isn't a Bolter shot going to have the exact same chance to kill a Marine as a punch? Bolter hit's on 3's, wounds on 4's, he gets 3+ Sv. Punch hit's on 4's, wounds on 3's, he gets 3+ Sv. But since you get two Bolter shots, isn't that preferable?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also, isn't a Bolter shot going to have the exact same chance to kill a Marine as a punch? Bolter hit's on 3's, wounds on 4's, he gets 3+ Sv. Punch hit's on 4's, wounds on 3's, he gets 3+ Sv. But since you get two Bolter shots, isn't that preferable?

Don't forget that if you don't take Boltguns, you will have a Bolt Pistol. So that equals it out.
And your math is correct, but it forgets the fact that often you will have bonuses in close combat like re-rolls on Hits or Wounds.

I think we can all agree that you don't take Bolters with Power Weapons?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Power fist with furious charge is S9 AP2, noobs. (4*2)+1. The order of operations in the real world and in 40k!

The bolter being fire means you cannot charge as well, so you lose all the death companies close combat attacks if you fire even a single bolter. And if you are not close enough to charge, why aren't you running!?

Death Company are relentless noob, meaning they can shoot rapid fire guns & assault. See? Unnecessary name calling does nothing to strengthen your point after all.

I'd run Bolters on Death Company only if you include a few Power Fists. No matter the amount or quality, sometimes AP - isn't enough to kill a unit with any saves worth a dam. But throw in a few Fists, your unit will be much better at killing 3+/2+ saves because the extra saves your forcing while the Fists work at full efficiency (They don't get +1 attack for the Pistol).

Also, isn't a Bolter shot going to have the exact same chance to kill a Marine as a punch? Bolter hit's on 3's, wounds on 4's, he gets 3+ Sv. Punch hit's on 4's, wounds on 3's, he gets 3+ Sv. But since you get two Bolter shots, isn't that preferable?

One, you are too slow, better luck next time, champ.

Two, you are not always fighting marines, and wounding on twos is a hell of a lot better than the bolters wounding on 3s. Or, if they have lower WS, you are hitting on 3s. And, the close combat attack is a gift that gives on the second round of combat and on your opponents turn.

Not to mention the risk of shooting yourself out of a close charge. Or the fact that cc meshes well with a sanguinary priest, chaplain, or any other marine character.

Hmm,i'm in doubt again,should i run bolters,which would be best: 2 5-man units with bolters and a power fist or 1 10-man unit with bolters and 2 power fists?

Would you go MSU or big threat?

I would run 9 Tactical Marines with a character in a Drop Pod if you want Bolters.

Kangodo wrote:
I would run 9 Tactical Marines with a character in a Drop Pod if you want Bolters.

They wouldn't have the mobility to cap objectives after they landed nor the strength to pose a threat though

 Crazyterran wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Power fist with furious charge is S9 AP2, noobs. (4*2)+1. The order of operations in the real world and in 40k!

The bolter being fire means you cannot charge as well, so you lose all the death companies close combat attacks if you fire even a single bolter. And if you are not close enough to charge, why aren't you running!?

Death Company are relentless noob, meaning they can shoot rapid fire guns & assault. See? Unnecessary name calling does nothing to strengthen your point after all.

I'd run Bolters on Death Company only if you include a few Power Fists. No matter the amount or quality, sometimes AP - isn't enough to kill a unit with any saves worth a dam. But throw in a few Fists, your unit will be much better at killing 3+/2+ saves because the extra saves your forcing while the Fists work at full efficiency (They don't get +1 attack for the Pistol).

Also, isn't a Bolter shot going to have the exact same chance to kill a Marine as a punch? Bolter hit's on 3's, wounds on 4's, he gets 3+ Sv. Punch hit's on 4's, wounds on 3's, he gets 3+ Sv. But since you get two Bolter shots, isn't that preferable?

One, you are too slow, better luck next time, champ.

Two, you are not always fighting marines, and wounding on twos is a hell of a lot better than the bolters wounding on 3s. Or, if they have lower WS, you are hitting on 3s. And, the close combat attack is a gift that gives on the second round of combat and on your opponents turn.

Not to mention the risk of shooting yourself out of a close charge. Or the fact that cc meshes well with a sanguinary priest, chaplain, or any other marine character.

No, your not always fighting Marines, but in that instance Bolters are better. If your fighting GEQ, you're AP 5 and let's be fair, those GEQ will crumble extra attack or no. I can't think of more then 5 T3 units that would cause any config or Death Company any problems. Inquisitorial Conclave, maybe Genestealers? So that is a moot point. Shooting yourself out of charge range is a danger, but so is charging into an almost full unit of Genestealers. And your point about adding characters that increase combat prowess, then of course you would take pistols. That's just common sense.

Anything with a 4+ save (tau, Eldar, 'are boys, marine scouts, ymgarls, tyranid warriors, scions)' or t5 or 6 would benefit more from extra attacks over bolters. Sisters would also be better to have the extra attack against.

Stop worrying about the math. DC get a bunch of attacks either way, and because they have relentless, they're one of the only units in the game that can rapid fire and assault in the same turn. Having mobility, FnP, and the ability to dish out a respectable amount of fire-power and/or assault like a champ is a GOOD thing.

Also, if you're fighting against Chaos Daemons MCs, many of which strike at crazy high initiative and can chomp through half the squad before we get to swing, you're going to enjoy the added bolter shots.

The short of it: Bolters give DC options and flexibility without taking away their combat superiority vs. other MEQ. Options and flexibility are good.

Options and flexibility are always good.
But bad options are still bad options.

"But what if you encounter.."
Then you use Tactical Marines, you're just simply not going to desecrate the Death Company with stuff like Boltguns.