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Mechanical men with guns. Are they coming, and when? There, found it.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Yeah, we should get this shutdown and then start a new thread with an updated OP.
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We're unlikely to get anything with more substance until a few days before the pre-order WD is due (the Monday before normally)
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
More FW related perhaps but relevant, thanks to MR Shaggy from the Bolthole for these notes from the HH weekend
Flesh And Steel.
Alan Bligh, Mark Bedford, Edgar Skomorowski, Tony Cottrell
Subject – the Solar Auxilia and the Mechanicum
Initial ‘reveal’ – that an Ordinatus model (BIG!) is work in progress at FW right now… and it will be bigger than a Baneblade!
The Solar Auxilia – aggressive defence tactics, force landings and then defend the beachhead.
The Solar Auxilia are – just like the Legiones Astartes – split in the Horus Heresy… some of them have fought with Horus or other Traitor legions for years/decades… naturally in many cases they have formed tight links with these legions, so in many cases have followed them into treachery.
Looking at the new SA ogryn models:-
ES: This Ogryn design is a kind of halfway house between the Solar Auxilia infantry and tanks.
AB: The Ogryn rules in “Conquest” are WAY toned down from the initial version!
These ogryns are ‘stitched’ into their armour and then switched on – organic killing machines, but deliberately not in the style of the Mechanicum. They actually have an ‘off’ switch on the back of their head! Also a kind of cage on the side of their head to stop them biting the medicae.
Mechanicum:-
MB: John Blanche’s artwork is a major inspiration for the Mechanicum. Tech-priests are the ‘human’ face of the Mechanicum – and there are much, much worse than them yet to be seen. MB wants to do the ‘crazy’ ones… the Mechanicum are the ultimate recycling army, they re-use absolutely everything left laying around after a battle, including body parts. MB likes the creepy guy look.
AB: I have at least one army where I drilled the eyes out! <hangs head in shame, laughter>
MB: The whole look of the Mechanicum is deliberately different from the rest of the Imperial forces… Mech tanks look fragile, but have lots of energy shields instead of armour. They always keep the best stuff for themselves and let the Imperial forces have the lesser gear… Legion Land Raiders, for example, are inferior to the Mech forces.
AB: Must remember that the 30k Mechanicum are NOT the 40k Adeptus Mechanicus. They are a kind of shadow empire, only partially part of the Imperium. The Dark Mechanicum have split off from the main track because they don’t want to obey the rules that have been imposed upon them (by the Emperor etc).. But we have to remember that the Mechanicum haven’t split right down the middle in the same way as the Legions… in many ways, the Mechanicum has split more. Some of the Dark Mechanicum don’t so much follow Horus as just want to rebel against the strictures of the Mechanicum – example, Cyclothrathe – they are out on the edge of the Imperium, and what they’ve found out there has driven them mad.
The Legio Cybernetica are a kind of compromise from the age of (now banned) sentient machines – the LC have artificial intelligence but not artificial sentience – they aren’t self-willed, sort of artificial beasts. However, as the war goes on and supply chains get disrupted (on both sides) it starts getting hard to replace the cortices in the robots – the Dark Mechanicum will start to take short cuts and try using daemons instead – although this is later, doesn’t happen immediately. Even during the Great Crusade, some of the Primarchs were started to get worried abou how many battle-automata were being created – suspected that the Mechanicum were building up to take on the Imperium itself? Although there are differing levels of suspicion amongst the Primarchs – for example, after a while (after the start of the Heresy) Perturabo starts to mistrust his own legion so much that he has a bodyguard of battle-automata created, instead of using his own legionaries.
Q: Will there be a red book for the Mechanicum?
TC: Yes, but not just yet – there is more yet to add.
Q: Will we see some of the odder sub-cults of the Mechanicum? (such as the electro-priests from 40K).
TC: A lot of 30K stuff isn’t seen in 40K and vice versa – the Mechanicum has evolved a lot.
AB: The 30K Mechanicum has no set organisation – a lot of it is ad hoc (the Taghmata are likened to a feudal ‘raising of banners’) and varies wildly between forge worlds. We may see some bits of the unusual stuff, but the 30K Mechanicum army we see is the ‘macro’ army, the more common stuff.
Q: Will we see 30K Skitarii?
TC: Skitarii are 40K Adeptus Mechanicus troops, their role has pretty much already been covered in 30K – if they are seen, they are likely to be quite different from what you’re used to.
Q: Will there be more types of Ordinatus?
TC: In 40K, each Ordinatus machine is unique, and they are very rare. In 30K they are somewhat less rare, so we will likely do some variants.
Q: Will you cover the relationship between the Mechanicum and the Iron Warriors? Rules and background?
AB: We will cover how the Iron Warriors’ relationship with the Mechanicum evolves – ditto with the Iron Hands, Salamanders – even the Dark Angels (my note – interesting!). After they became one of the Shattered Legions, the remains of the Iron Hands cope in different ways – fight back, start a guerrilla war, some basically go mad. Some turn to forbidden tech – the Keys Of Hel.
MB: Some legions desperately need to replace lost warriors, and quickly…
Q: Will there be any weapon packs for the Mechanicum? For Myrmidons?
MB: Yes, we’re doing them now, but they’re not ready yet.
Q: Will you produce rules for the tech used by the Raven Guard? Reflex shields, etc?
AB: That all depends on the space available in the books. Some stuff – like that Raven Guard gear mentioned – will be left to later books.
Q: After having seen the illustration of the Mechanicum Ordinatus being planned, are you going to be using CAD (Computer-Aided Design) more?
TC: We will be using it more, but still using old-fashioned sculpting as well – kind of a fusion of the two. We will model by hand and by computer – were are not a CGI company!
Q: Are there any Solar Auxilia heavy weapons coming?
TC: The SA don’t tend to carry many heavy weapons.
AB: Most of the SA’s heavy weapons are machine-mobile rather than shoulder-carried or the 40K Astra Militarum two-man fixed teams… they will use Rapier platforms and such. There will be some other heavy/special weapons coming – such as snipers? (Joke about unicycle Rough Riders).
Q: Will there be any Mechanicum transfer sheets?
TC: Yes – we have just taken on someone (Jez Goodwin’s daughter, in fact) just to do decals & brass etchings and the like. Previously they’ve been done by various artists in between other projects, if a bit of spare time came up. Now that we have a dedicated person for this, there should be a lot more.
Q: Will there be a Kelbor-Hal model and rules?
AB & TC: We need to get the narrative to Mars before doing something like that. We will be doing at least one book on Mars later – within the next 4 books perhaps? (my note – if what is mentioned in later seminars is true, then at the earliest this would be Book 8).
Q: In one of the Garro audios there is a kick-ass Mechanicum flyer – will you be doing model/rules?
MB: I have some ideas… <laughter>
Q: (Sorry – didn’t hear the question!)
AB: The Scyllax are guardian-automata, they are defensively orientated and have no cortex. Very little of them is organic, for obvious reasons – inside them is a rad-furnace, they are intended to kill with rad weaponry. Sort of the Mechanicum equivalent to the Legion Destroyer squads.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
FW said at the HH Weekender that if they do Skitarri for 30k they'll likely be different than the 40k ones we know.
Though they did say that the role of "core troops" has been snagged already so it's not 100% clear if we'll see 30k ones. But we can be sure that they're not the same.
beast_gts wrote: Which is different from the 40k "interpretation" of Skitarii.
Which is?
Consider the thallax are described as an off shoot of 30k Skitarii, if my recollection is correct.... Meanwhile 40k Skitarii are more like heavily enhanced guardsmen or Stormtroopers. The 40k Skitarii would appear to be more capable tech-thralls while the 30k Skitarii are less capable thallax. It seems like approaching the same notion from two different directions. I wouldn't be surprised if we find the 40k era Skitarii are a consequence of some technology being lost and being as close to it as the Adeptus Mechanicus can get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/23 21:50:30
beast_gts wrote: Which is different from the 40k "interpretation" of Skitarii.
Which is?
Clockwork Space Marines
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
beast_gts wrote: Which is different from the 40k "interpretation" of Skitarii.
Which is?
It changes depending on the author. In the Mars trilogy (Graham McNeil) and in Titanicus (Dan Abnett) they are the heavily-enhanced but still human and capable of independent thought elite of the AdMech, while in Dark Adeptus (Ben Counter) they're guardsmen with minimal implants.
This is what Gav Thorpe wrote in the Epic 40,000 Skitarii army list in Citadel Journal 21 (late 90s):
Spoiler:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has two forces at its disposal. The might of the Titan Legions have ruled the battlefields for the Machine-God since the founding of the Imperium. Alongside these massive war engines, the Cult Mechanicus also has its regiments of Skitarii. Known by the uncouth and uninitiated as the Tech-Guard, the Skitarii are raised from the populations of the Forge Worlds and are armed and trained in a similar fashion to the Imperial Guard. The Skitarii provide a defensive force for the Forge Worlds and also provide infantry and armoured support for the Titan Legions when they go on campaign. The warriors of the Skitarii are often bionically altered in some fashion and the crews of the Adeptus Mechanicus' tanks are cybernetically linked to their machines and can never leave them.
The term Skitarii refers to these regiments as a whole, but the different troops that make up the infantry and tank columns also have ancient titles which refer to their battlefield role and their position within the Cult Mechanicus. The Hypaspists form the standard infantry squads, and are armed with lasguns. Heavy weapons specialists earn the title of Sagitarii, while the honoured tank crews are dubbed Cataphracts and are afforded a great deal of respect for their close finks with their machines. The Ballisterai are the artillerists of the Skitarii, experts in raining down fire at extremely long range. The Ballisterai often field large, experimental weapons, designed to smash or cut through armoured tanks and enemy strongholds. Then there are the Praetorians; biologically and bionically enhanced warriors, with brain-stem implants, neuro-linked processors and alloy reinforced skeletons. Unlike Space Marines who are genetically altered from an early age, the Praetorians are fully grown men who act as walking test beds for the rediscovered technologies of the Imperium. They are fearsome fighters whose devotion to the Machine-God makes them zealous combatants willing to fight to the death. They are the terror troops of the Adeptus Mechanicus, enforcing the will of the Machine-God wherever they are deployed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/23 22:30:31
This is what Gav Thorpe wrote in the Epic 40,000 Skitarii army list in Citadel Journal 21 (late 90s):
Spoiler:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has two forces at its disposal. The might of the Titan Legions have ruled the battlefields for the Machine-God since the founding of the Imperium. Alongside these massive war engines, the Cult Mechanicus also has its regiments of Skitarii. Known by the uncouth and uninitiated as the Tech-Guard, the Skitarii are raised from the populations of the Forge Worlds and are armed and trained in a similar fashion to the Imperial Guard. The Skitarii provide a defensive force for the Forge Worlds and also provide infantry and armoured support for the Titan Legions when they go on campaign. The warriors of the Skitarii are often bionically altered in some fashion and the crews of the Adeptus Mechanicus' tanks are cybernetically linked to their machines and can never leave them.
The term Skitarii refers to these regiments as a whole, but the different troops that make up the infantry and tank columns also have ancient titles which refer to their battlefield role and their position within the Cult Mechanicus. The Hypaspists form the standard infantry squads, and are armed with lasguns. Heavy weapons specialists earn the title of Sagitarii, while the honoured tank crews are dubbed Cataphracts and are afforded a great deal of respect for their close finks with their machines. The Ballisterai are the artillerists of the Skitarii, experts in raining down fire at extremely long range. The Ballisterai often field large, experimental weapons, designed to smash or cut through armoured tanks and enemy strongholds. Then there are the Praetorians; biologically and bionically enhanced warriors, with brain-stem implants, neuro-linked processors and alloy reinforced skeletons. Unlike Space Marines who are genetically altered from an early age, the Praetorians are fully grown men who act as walking test beds for the rediscovered technologies of the Imperium. They are fearsome fighters whose devotion to the Machine-God makes them zealous combatants willing to fight to the death. They are the terror troops of the Adeptus Mechanicus, enforcing the will of the Machine-God wherever they are deployed.
That's what I always thought and it works to unify all the different takes we have seen over the years. Skitarii means all of the AM's military and within it is everything from base-line humans with high-tech gear to hulking man-machines grown in vats.
Ditto Kid. I was under the impression that the Skitarii weren't a unit, as such, but an organisation. So just like you have Space Marine Tactical Squads and Space Marine Devastator Squads you'd have Skitarii [Something] Squads and Skitarii [Something Else] Squads.
Ratius wrote: I'vre updated the OP with bits an bobs from the thread but dont have the time to go through it all, Mods feel free to amend/add as see fit.
Looking at the list, I'm conflicted.
FW already do Myrmidon Secutors & Destructors, but it's possible we'll see a third (or basic) type (with Secutor promoted to HQ - hence Clampack). The Legio Cybernetica Colossus/Conqueror box (combo kit) is also possible - the Castellax is an updated Castellan while the Vorax is the updated Crusader (Castellan & Crusader being their Dark Age names). That would leave the Colossus, Conqueror & Cataphract.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/24 17:45:09
Ratius wrote: I'vre updated the OP with bits an bobs from the thread but dont have the time to go through it all, Mods feel free to amend/add as see fit.
Looking at the list, I'm conflicted.
FW already do Myrmidon Secutors & Destructors, but it's possible we'll see a third (or basic) type (with Secutor promoted to HQ - hence Clampack).
The Legio Cybernetica Colossus/Conqueror box (combo kit) is also possible - the Castellax is an updated Castellan while the Vorax is the updated Crusader (Castellan & Crusader being their Dark Age names). That would leave the Colossus, Conqueror & Cataphract.
Spoiler:
It's important to note that the FW models represent the Mechanicum of the 30k era and not the the Adeptus Mechanicus of the 40k era. While there maybe some overlap, there is as much difference between the Mechanicum of the 30k era and the Adeptus Mechanicus of the 40k era as there are between the Space Marine Legions and the Space Marine Chapters. 10k years, half of the mechanicum going to chaos, and a bunch of lost technology has undoubtedly altered how they appear and operate.
aka_mythos wrote: It's important to note that the FW models represent the Mechanicum of the 30k era and not the the Adeptus Mechanicus of the 40k era. While there maybe some overlap, there is as much difference between the Mechanicum of the 30k era and the Adeptus Mechanicus of the 40k era as there are between the Space Marine Legions and the Space Marine Chapters. 10k years, half of the mechanicum going to chaos, and a bunch of lost technology has undoubtedly altered how they appear and operate.
I know the Martian Mechanicum was burnt to the ground during the Schism of Mars, and was (mostly) rebuilt as the Adeptus Mechanicus and I hope GW would build upon FW's work rather than burn than to the ground
But anyway, it's a rumour and I'm just speculating...
If these rumours do come to pass and we see plastic Skitarii infantry, I'm intrigued/slightly worried to see what direction they decide to go with the models.
Part of what makes the Mechanicum appealing is just how unlike the Imperium at-large they are; I love the descriptions of Skitarii from Titanicus and the ...of Mars series as overmuscled, stimmed-up, heavily-augmented, pseudo-Roman techno-barbarians - no pretense, no pomp, you get the real sense that these are creatures which have been designed for warfare and nothing else. If GW end up going with the "humans with lasguns in robes and the odd bionic hand" route it'll be really disappointing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/25 01:09:33
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
