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I don't see how recruiting children after putting them through some crazy test into the Adeptus Astartes is a good idea. There are tons of issues involved as well as more effective methods. Why? Why?

Why not scan the genes of every newborn baby and choose which one are suitable for geneseeds in the future? Then, the Chapter can separate these babies from their parents (with some compensation, of course) and train them in Space Marine style right away. They have plenty of Chapter serfs, so baby-sitting would not be a problem. They can construct kinder garden-training facilities away from the Fortress Monastery if necessary.

The first word the babies will mutter will be "Emperor". They will shoot their first shot at the age of two. Their toys throughout childhood will be wargears they will use later on. The arena will be their playground. Many will end up dying/killing, pitting each other for survival where the strongest remains and become future Astartes. They can be indoctrinated from such early age that the Chapter becomes everything to them. They don't know their true parents, they don't care their world's tradition, they don't have anything in their background that will make them more "human" and less "Space Marine". They will be extremely loyal, and will care nothing more than completing their missions.

I know the concept is somewhat Sparta-related, but come on. This is the future. There are technologies that can be used to enhance the process.

So why don't the Space Marines recruit this way? It is obviously better.

What the hell is wrong with the current process?

So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?

 ImAGeek wrote:
So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?

The current way is dumb. Many Space Marines always have some background bs before they enter the chapter that is just meaningless. What is better? Training from the age of 10 or from the age of 0?

When do you think is it possible to test if the Human Beeing is a candidate to consider ?
Age 0 ?

OP looking at some of your past threads I often wonder why you stick around for 40k - When you think about it, nothing makes sense in the grimdark 40k universe.

The recruitment of pre pubescent males off of certain planets, or only from certain tribes, put through punishing rituals and trials to kill off 99% leaving the ripe remains to maybe, maybe have a small chance of accepting the genetic therapy which turns a normal boy into bald headed superhuman who will then have a great chance of falling to some kind of defect (which reflects traits of certain chapters) seems legit. They are then equipped to fight with Husqvana hedge trimmers, as prescribed by some book.

It certainly worked when Marines were definitely held at 1000 per chapter and added to the legend - Astartes were legend, their battles doubly so. It is a fitting recruitment process for a warrior brotherhood which is barely thought of or remembered by the Imperium.

In current incarnations it maybe reeks of eighties writing.

bibotot wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?

The current way is dumb. Many Space Marines always have some background bs before they enter the chapter that is just meaningless. What is better? Training from the age of 10 or from the age of 0?

The current way is kinda stupid yeah. But I don't see how yours is any better, you're just starting earlier and then doing the same stuff, they're just younger.

 ImAGeek wrote:

bibotot wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So your way still has kids dying, how is it any better than the current way..?

The current way is dumb. Many Space Marines always have some background bs before they enter the chapter that is just meaningless. What is better? Training from the age of 10 or from the age of 0?

The current way is kinda stupid yeah. But I don't see how yours is any better, you're just starting earlier and then doing the same stuff, they're just younger.

How is it stupid? They take the cream of the crop, highjack their puberty with gene-seed, and mindscrub and brainswash them into being dogmatic and utterly loyal soldiers with an exceptional degree of brotherhood and "no man gets left behind" mentality.

This is probably the best result you could ever get.

Not to mention at birth and through gene study they cannot judge the mental strength or capacity of possible recruits. The trials not only test the body but also the mental fortitude

The only bit that is stupid, thinking about it, is that they don't have a way of checking someone is eligible for the genetics/implants til they actually try it. The rest does seem just like normal military training just done harder.

The SMs may find that having a human orgin is actually BENIFICAL, hypno training after all gets rid of any problems that might occur.

but yeah the current system's just as good as the previous, and we know some SM chapters basicly have special schools set up to helpm produce ideal recruits. (the Ultramarines come to mind. they conveniantly get to use the left overs as the core of the best PDF in the galaxy)

Failed recruits can be serfs.
They are well trained, loyal and have some benefits of there upgrading. Long as there not too messed up or broken.

Or a servitor if way too messed up. Less waste than just dumping them all.

Yes trials are brutal but only the best make it, and make good marines. If they can survive there training there tough, and smart. Smart is key, marines are often outnumbered, they need to be able to adapt and use everything they can to help level the numbers.

As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:

-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.

-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.

Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.

Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.

Corvax explains this a bit in Deliverance Lost (one of the few good parts of that book.)

Basically the reason why SM are not cloned (or selectively bred like you mentioned) is to ensure that their is enough variety in skills, background and experience in the Legions/chapters/etc. to ensure it is sustainable.

If every SM was identical (which would be the result of your idea) then the chapters would become to easy to outsmart, tamper with or would just begin to stagnate.

SM chapter aren't just built for war and are to a certain extent a propaganda tool (FFG's books mentioned that they send measly detachments of SM to warzones or spread rumors of their presence just to drum up morale.)

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Corvax explains this a bit in Deliverance Lost (one of the few good parts of that book.)

Basically the reason why SM are not cloned (or selectively bred like you mentioned) is to ensure that their is enough variety in skills, background and experience in the Legions/chapters/etc. to ensure it is sustainable.

If every SM was identical (which would be the result of your idea) then the chapters would become to easy to outsmart, tamper with or would just begin to stagnate.

SM chapter aren't just built for war and are to a certain extent a propaganda tool (FFG's books mentioned that they send measly detachments of SM to warzones or spread rumors of their presence just to drum up morale.)

Ignoring as well that cloning itself is incredibly dangerous, especially in 40k and can lead to more horrible accidents then mere cancer.

 jhe90 wrote:
Failed recruits can be serfs.
They are well trained, loyal and have some benefits of there upgrading. Long as there not too messed up or broken.

Or a servitor if way too messed up. Less waste than just dumping them all.

Yes trials are brutal but only the best make it, and make good marines. If they can survive there training there tough, and smart. Smart is key, marines are often outnumbered, they need to be able to adapt and use everything they can to help level the numbers.

Knowing that means there must be a ton of serfs.

Along with the numerous families that serve space marines . I wouldn't doubt that many of them are trained for combat just incase of boarding actions. I mean it only makes sense that space marines are not the only people in their large ships they go around.

Infact its one of the reasons why I think there might be Defense forces on all space marine ships to guard the ship crews and space marine armories.

Ignoring as well that cloning itself is incredibly dangerous, especially in 40k and can lead to more horrible accidents then mere cancer.

IE look at why chaos space marines are often killed more often.

Because most Chaos Space Marines are infact clones or templates of older chaos space marines. If my memory serves right.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Failed recruits can be serfs.
They are well trained, loyal and have some benefits of there upgrading. Long as there not too messed up or broken.

Or a servitor if way too messed up. Less waste than just dumping them all.

Yes trials are brutal but only the best make it, and make good marines. If they can survive there training there tough, and smart. Smart is key, marines are often outnumbered, they need to be able to adapt and use everything they can to help level the numbers.

Knowing that means there must be a ton of serfs.

Along with the numerous families that serve space marines . I wouldn't doubt that many of them are trained for combat just incase of boarding actions. I mean it only makes sense that space marines are not the only people in their large ships they go around.

Infact its one of the reasons why I think there might be Defense forces on all space marine ships to guard the ship crews and space marine armories.

Ignoring as well that cloning itself is incredibly dangerous, especially in 40k and can lead to more horrible accidents then mere cancer.

No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.
IE look at why chaos space marines are often killed more often.

Because most Chaos Space Marines are infact clones or templates of older chaos space marines. If my memory serves right.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:

-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.

-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.

Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.

Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.

You also haave to remember that cultures influence fighting styles and tactical ideas of those new recruits. Allowing for differences in opinion or lifestyle. I mean every astartes is basically completely unique from another Astartes if they are a fleetbound chapter. Take for example the Dark Angels. for a long time many of its recruits were Native American until a certain event that made it so that the Chapter had to branch out to other worlds. They often refered to each other as Cloud Warriors. Or something in a similar vein.

(actually fun fact that is one of my favorite bits of warhammer 40k lore of all time. Apart from the Original Battle for Macraggage.)

No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.

Wasn't that one of the ideas passed around that is the way how some of the Chaos Legions are keeping their numbers so high? Is through either sorcery or cloning?

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:

-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.

-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.

Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.

Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.

You also haave to remember that cultures influence fighting styles and tactical ideas of those new recruits. Allowing for differences in opinion or lifestyle. I mean every astartes is basically completely unique from another Astartes if they are a fleetbound chapter. Take for example the Dark Angels. for a long time many of its recruits were Native American until a certain event that made it so that the Chapter had to branch out to other worlds. They often refered to each other as Cloud Warriors. Or something in a similar vein.

(actually fun fact that is one of my favorite bits of warhammer 40k lore of all time. Apart from the Original Battle for Macraggage.)

No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.

Wasn't that one of the ideas passed around that is the way how some of the Chaos Legions are keeping their numbers so high? Is through either sorcery or cloning?

CSM's raise their numbers the same way their loyalists counterparts do, only they use slaves instead of serfs.

What you're thinking of is Honsou the Bastard.

CSM's raise their numbers the same way their loyalists counterparts do, only they use slaves instead of serfs.

What you're thinking of is Honsou the Bastard.

Ah yes Now I remember.

Your right.

Aren't there some CSM who are killed and then can possess the bodies of SM apart from Lucius the Eternal.

One really stupid thing is growing the next set of geneseed in the body of the marine.

There's no problem with growing the geneseed in slaves when founding a new Chapter. It doesn't produce weaker marines, physically or mentally. Why do they believe it's somehow beneficial to leave the most important organs in the body of someone who continually exposes them to danger? He's going to war, getting shot at with heavy weapons, exposed to every kind of poison and radiation. And the Warp too while moving between worlds.

Because the geneseed that matures in a Space Marine's body is believed to pass on some of the skills and knowledge of its previous host when passed on to a new Marine.

CSM also steal gene seed from loyalist chapters and implant them into people. Huron Blackheart raided a fortress monastery on the Marines Errant world of Vilamus and stole their gene seed from them to make more Red Corsairs.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As you have to be into early puberty to being the transformation into an Astartes, letting a culture raise them to that age does many things for the Chapter:

-The cost of raising the child to that point is someone else's problem, not the Chapter's.

-Making the choosing of the possible converts into a special ceremony elevates the Chapter in the eyes of the culture they are recruiting from, by convincing the culture that the Chapter is "honoring" them by choosing the best they have to offer. It keeps them elevated in the eyes of that culture, enhancing compliance with Imperial doctrine, as well as automatically giving them the best of the crop with the least effort. Remember that many Chapters recruit from tribal cultures.

Frankly, anything that the culture would teach the child that would run counter to the goals of the Chapter can be erased with hypnotic-indoctrination, and hell, many of the cultures they raise from out of necessity teach the children the same savage survival values that the Chapters usually want to build upon, anyway.

Essentially, take the Space Wolves, or the Blood Angels. Either of them have recruitment that perfectly suits their purposes, And in Ultramar, you being chosen as a candidate is like being chosen to be a Super-Stormtrooper, considering the methods and established processes.

You also haave to remember that cultures influence fighting styles and tactical ideas of those new recruits. Allowing for differences in opinion or lifestyle. I mean every astartes is basically completely unique from another Astartes if they are a fleetbound chapter. Take for example the Dark Angels. for a long time many of its recruits were Native American until a certain event that made it so that the Chapter had to branch out to other worlds. They often refered to each other as Cloud Warriors. Or something in a similar vein.

(actually fun fact that is one of my favorite bits of warhammer 40k lore of all time. Apart from the Original Battle for Macraggage.)

No, they aren't Clones. Fabius however does run Clones, and nothing good comes of them.

Wasn't that one of the ideas passed around that is the way how some of the Chaos Legions are keeping their numbers so high? Is through either sorcery or cloning?

That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.

It doesn't make sense if you expect Space Marines to be some sort of cost-effective, mass producible tool of warfare. Which they weren't, even in the Great Crusade era. If you think of them as avatars and champions of humanity, meant to both inspire heroism (in allies) and terror (in allies AND enemies) in equal measure - eg basically psychological tools (which can be of more value than one might think, given the nature of the warp and its connections to the thoughts and emotions of living beings that have a warp soul) it makes a sort of (albeit horrible) sense. Not unlike the Spartan-IIs in Halo, really.

Being combat effective, superhuman, nigh-unkillable and all that stuff (as well as the distinctive weapons and armor) is part of the image just as much as the rumors and stories of the awesome and terrible things they do. If you want 'cost effective supersoldiers', you'd go with skitarii (or at least you would, if the AdMech let you.) or power armored sororitas, or something else.

That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.

I know. Thats why I don't like the newer lore. A space marine chapter especially a fleet based chapter will be made up of many different cultures.

 Asherian Command wrote:

That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.

I know. Thats why I don't like the newer lore. A space marine chapter especially a fleet based chapter will be made up of many different cultures.

true but they'd also have something to unify them. a Knightly brotherhood makes a LOT of sense in that regard, as it's not nesscarily a complete new culture.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

That's the earliest Dark Angels, They were retconned into a Medieval Knight Brotherhood instead of Native Americans.

I know. Thats why I don't like the newer lore. A space marine chapter especially a fleet based chapter will be made up of many different cultures.

true but they'd also have something to unify them. a Knightly brotherhood makes a LOT of sense in that regard, as it's not nesscarily a complete new culture.

They may be bound by brotherhood but different cultures allows for different tactics and fighting styles.

Picking the perfect babies to become Space Marines was copy right by Soldier (movie)

bibotot wrote:
I don't see how recruiting children after putting them through some crazy test into the Adeptus Astartes is a good idea. There are tons of issues involved as well as more effective methods. Why? Why?

Why not scan the genes of every newborn baby and choose which one are suitable for geneseeds in the future? Then, the Chapter can separate these babies from their parents (with some compensation, of course) and train them in Space Marine style right away. They have plenty of Chapter serfs, so baby-sitting would not be a problem. They can construct kinder garden-training facilities away from the Fortress Monastery if necessary.

The first word the babies will mutter will be "Emperor". They will shoot their first shot at the age of two. Their toys throughout childhood will be wargears they will use later on. The arena will be their playground. Many will end up dying/killing, pitting each other for survival where the strongest remains and become future Astartes. They can be indoctrinated from such early age that the Chapter becomes everything to them. They don't know their true parents, they don't care their world's tradition, they don't have anything in their background that will make them more "human" and less "Space Marine". They will be extremely loyal, and will care nothing more than completing their missions.

I know the concept is somewhat Sparta-related, but come on. This is the future. There are technologies that can be used to enhance the process.

So why don't the Space Marines recruit this way? It is obviously better.

Some already do this. What you describe is the recruitment process of the red scorpions. I don't see any reason some other chapters might not do something similar and recruit along the lines of Kurt Russell's soldier movie. Then again, living in, and being a part of a culture and mythos of your homeworld does hold a certain degree of importance.

By the way, on a point - this is 'the future', sure. But it's a very backwards, regressed, haphazard and extremely technophobic one. A lot of the technology is misunderstood, feared, hated,and bound up so completely in dogma, ritual, rites, and mystery, and frankly, is kind of pointless.