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Hi everyone.
It always bothered me: why an AP3 laser beam is just as innefective against 2+ armor as an AP6 ork pistol? Isn't an overheated laser charge more likely to penetrate armor than a regular bullet? It just seems logical.
So, I've came up with this idea: number you need to roll for a successful armor save must depend on AP value of weapon firing at you. Formula is: successful save = your profile Sv + (7-AP of weapon).
Example: Terminator is being shot with AP5 bolter. So, his armor will save him on (2+)+(7-5)=4+. If he is shot with AP3 killkannon then he will be saved only on (2+)+(7-3)=6+. His armor is useless against AP2 and AP1. Thus, it will make invulnerables more valuable because they are not affected by AP and providing your units a good cover will be necessary. We will no longer see a bunch of heavily armored dudes just walking casually among artillery rounds blowing around and bullets flying everywhere.
I know this will generate insane amounts of rage. But this can change the whole game. 2+armored units will no longer be able to shrug off 86% of everything. Using highly armored units will require nore tactical thinking instead of just"drop them anywhere and watch everything being ripped apart". You have to be extra cautious if even regular bolter fire can seriously damage your precious Termies!
What do you people think?

I'm not sure how, but I know the armour saves used to scale like they did at one point in fantasy. I think they changed it to the current system to "streamline" it and make it more simplistic or something like that.

I like the idea though.

You'll need to remake the AP of all the weaponry though. As there'd be no use of good armor as half the weapons will make 2+ and 3+ irrelevant.

So, AP6 is -1, AP5 is -2 etc? Down to AP3 is -4?
Yeah, we did this already in 2nd Ed. Armour was incredibly useless back then. I agree it seems more sensible, but it just doesn't hold up to the power of weapons in the 40k universe.

A weapon can either penetrate Armor or it can't. A thick steel plate doesn't care if you shoot it with a BB gun or punch it with your fist. It will not break or deform. The Steel Plate is just as strong as it ever was. If you fire an armor piercing round on the other hand, the steel plate is always useless.

In game terms a Terminator rolling a 1 for an armour save represents a shot hitting a weak spot in the armor perfectly perpendicular to the armor.

If you wanted high ap weapons to be able to penetrate the thickest part of the armor on a glancing hit, then you'd have to also work in a system where high ap shots wear down armor so a 2+ becomes 3+, then a 4+, etc.

Yep the old save modifier system was rubbish as nearly all weapons were at least -1, so even marines had armour that worked only half the time. The modern AP system is better imo. I do think AP2 weapons are too prevalent, but there is plenty of discussion already on that subject!

You see, when that AP3 killkannon does hit a terminator? He actually would just laugh at it, explosions do nothing to terminator armor. When standard bullets do happen to kill them, it's because something completely unlikely happens, such as hitting a joint or the visor or something. Fluff-wise it should be infinitely less likely than 2+ that his armor fails.

I've implemented variations of this in a number of different 40k-related systems and the common elements I've found are 1) you can't just up and make a formula for making 40k stats work with this big of a rules change and 2) you can't lift a system partway, you need some stuff that'll interact with it.

The most in-depth implementation of save penalties I've done was in Aegis; weapons scale such that small arms have no AP or AP -1, heavier anti-personnel weapons have AP -2, dedicated anti-heavy infantry weapons have AP -3, and dedicated anti-armour weapons have AP -4, most saves are one step better than their equivalent in 40k, there are 0+ and 1+ saves that don't auto-fail on 1s, and Invulnerable saves are taken in addition to armour. It makes the rock-paper-scissors game less of a problem and makes big scary infantry like Terminators actually worth five or six regular dudes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've implemented variations of this in a number of different 40k-related systems and the common elements I've found are 1) you can't just up and make a formula for making 40k stats work with this big of a rules change and 2) you can't lift a system partway, you need some stuff that'll interact with it.

The most in-depth implementation of save penalties I've done was in Aegis; weapons scale such that small arms have no AP or AP -1, heavier anti-personnel weapons have AP -2, dedicated anti-heavy infantry weapons have AP -3, and dedicated anti-armour weapons have AP -4, most saves are one step better than their equivalent in 40k, there are 0+ and 1+ saves that don't auto-fail on 1s, and Invulnerable saves are taken in addition to armour. It makes the rock-paper-scissors game less of a problem and makes big scary infantry like Terminators actually worth five or six regular dudes.

That's pretty much the same as how Warhammer Fantasy works, except a 1 always fails. A S1 to S3 wound is taken at your normal armour save, S4 is -1, S5 is -2, S6 is -3 and so on. You take you Ward saves (invuln) after a failed Armour Save (Armour saves can go down to 1+ too), but Ward saves on the whole are much rarer and don't usually get better than a 4+.

I don't think the AP system in 40k is that bad, it's just that too many weapons have AP2. Get rid of rending attacks on Eldar Shurikan weapons for starters (being being Assault 2 on a basic troop that can shoot and run in the same turn is enough of an advantage over rapid fire imo), make Plasma Get's Hot wounds have AP2 to make them much more risky to use and maybe consider giving Anti-Tank weapons (like Melta or Lascannons) a -1 to hit against non-bulky Infantry targets to represent that they are freaking anti-tank weapons not meant for shooting at little dudes.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
So, AP6 is -1, AP5 is -2 etc? Down to AP3 is -4?
Yeah, we did this already in 2nd Ed. Armour was incredibly useless back then. I agree it seems more sensible, but it just doesn't hold up to the power of weapons in the 40k universe.

ah, 2nd Edition, where simple 500pt games would last hours because of all the detailed rules. I do NOT miss those days.

shyzo wrote:
Hi everyone.
It always bothered me: why an AP3 laser beam is just as innefective against 2+ armor as an AP6 ork pistol? Isn't an overheated laser charge more likely to penetrate armor than a regular bullet? It just seems logical.
So, I've came up with this idea: number you need to roll for a successful armor save must depend on AP value of weapon firing at you. Formula is: successful save = your profile Sv + (7-AP of weapon).
Example: Terminator is being shot with AP5 bolter. So, his armor will save him on (2+)+(7-5)=4+. If he is shot with AP3 killkannon then he will be saved only on (2+)+(7-3)=6+. His armor is useless against AP2 and AP1. Thus, it will make invulnerables more valuable because they are not affected by AP and providing your units a good cover will be necessary. We will no longer see a bunch of heavily armored dudes just walking casually among artillery rounds blowing around and bullets flying everywhere.
I know this will generate insane amounts of rage. But this can change the whole game. 2+armored units will no longer be able to shrug off 86% of everything. Using highly armored units will require nore tactical thinking instead of just"drop them anywhere and watch everything being ripped apart". You have to be extra cautious if even regular bolter fire can seriously damage your precious Termies!
What do you people think?

Units with 2+ saves i.e. Terminators already have a hard time on the table with all the AP2 going around and you want to make it more difficult for them?

Not to mention that armies like Tau would automatically win turn one anyway through the sheer amount of shots they can bring because their opponents armours saves are being comprimised even by the AP5 SMS.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've implemented variations of this in a number of different 40k-related systems and the common elements I've found are 1) you can't just up and make a formula for making 40k stats work with this big of a rules change and 2) you can't lift a system partway, you need some stuff that'll interact with it.

The most in-depth implementation of save penalties I've done was in Aegis; weapons scale such that small arms have no AP or AP -1, heavier anti-personnel weapons have AP -2, dedicated anti-heavy infantry weapons have AP -3, and dedicated anti-armour weapons have AP -4, most saves are one step better than their equivalent in 40k, there are 0+ and 1+ saves that don't auto-fail on 1s, and Invulnerable saves are taken in addition to armour. It makes the rock-paper-scissors game less of a problem and makes big scary infantry like Terminators actually worth five or six regular dudes.

That's pretty much the same as how Warhammer Fantasy works, except a 1 always fails. A S1 to S3 wound is taken at your normal armour save, S4 is -1, S5 is -2, S6 is -3 and so on. You take you Ward saves (invuln) after a failed Armour Save (Armour saves can go down to 1+ too), but Ward saves on the whole are much rarer and don't usually get better than a 4+.

I don't think the AP system in 40k is that bad, it's just that too many weapons have AP2. Get rid of rending attacks on Eldar Shurikan weapons for starters (being being Assault 2 on a basic troop that can shoot and run in the same turn is enough of an advantage over rapid fire imo), make Plasma Get's Hot wounds have AP2 to make them much more risky to use and maybe consider giving Anti-Tank weapons (like Melta or Lascannons) a -1 to hit against non-bulky Infantry targets to represent that they are freaking anti-tank weapons not meant for shooting at little dudes.

I know how Warhammer Fantasy works. The prime difference here (beyond 1s not always failing) is that AP is a separate value not dependent on Strength, which allows for a wider range of weapons. I hardcapped Ward saves at 4+, nothing gets better than that (WHFB has things like the Banner of the World Dragon and the Lore of High Magic off the top of my head that can get better).

The issue with imposing a penalty to hit with big weapons against small targets is that it isn't supported by the fluff, if anything lorewise a meltagun ought to use the flamer template. The problem isn't usually inexpensive meltaguns, plasma guns, or lascannons, it's AP2 Large Blasts or very quick-firing weapons that came out of the 6e power creep craze and shouldn't exist.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Get rid of rending attacks on Eldar Shurikan weapons for starters (being being Assault 2 on a basic troop that can shoot and run in the same turn is enough of an advantage over rapid fire imo)

The troops you are talking about are S3 T3 Sv 5+ and twelve inch range (or nothing against most weapons) for eight points.
Unless you're talking about the S3 T3 Sv 4+ eighteen inch range no special weapons for thirteen points.

Bladestorm is a tiny buff to otherwise very mediocre units and it's just ridiculous to ask for a nerf to that.

AP is broken, proof is that Banshees became 100% useless overnight when their weapons went AP3 and stopped affecting 2+ saves.

morgoth wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Get rid of rending attacks on Eldar Shurikan weapons for starters (being being Assault 2 on a basic troop that can shoot and run in the same turn is enough of an advantage over rapid fire imo)

The troops you are talking about are S3 T3 Sv 5+ and twelve inch range (or nothing against most weapons) for eight points.
Unless you're talking about the S3 T3 Sv 4+ eighteen inch range no special weapons for thirteen points.

Bladestorm is a tiny buff to otherwise very mediocre units and it's just ridiculous to ask for a nerf to that.

AP is broken, proof is that Banshees became 100% useless overnight when their weapons went AP3 and stopped affecting 2+ saves.

Arguable - the biggest problem with Banshees is that they can't get to the fight with no DT assault vehicle unless they get a lift on a DE Raider / Venom. Although taking away the option of different power weapons was agreed very annoying and didn't help.

shyzo wrote:
Hi everyone.
It always bothered me: why an AP3 laser beam is just as innefective against 2+ armor as an AP6 ork pistol? Isn't an overheated laser charge more likely to penetrate armor than a regular bullet? It just seems logical.
So, I've came up with this idea: number you need to roll for a successful armor save must depend on AP value of weapon firing at you. Formula is: successful save = your profile Sv + (7-AP of weapon).
Example: Terminator is being shot with AP5 bolter. So, his armor will save him on (2+)+(7-5)=4+. If he is shot with AP3 killkannon then he will be saved only on (2+)+(7-3)=6+. His armor is useless against AP2 and AP1. Thus, it will make invulnerables more valuable because they are not affected by AP and providing your units a good cover will be necessary. We will no longer see a bunch of heavily armored dudes just walking casually among artillery rounds blowing around and bullets flying everywhere.
I know this will generate insane amounts of rage. But this can change the whole game. 2+armored units will no longer be able to shrug off 86% of everything. Using highly armored units will require nore tactical thinking instead of just"drop them anywhere and watch everything being ripped apart". You have to be extra cautious if even regular bolter fire can seriously damage your precious Termies!
What do you people think?

Because that's how physics work. Hitting a steel beam with a sharp stone is going to be as ineffective as hitting a steel beam with a leather belt, even though a stone should have more penetrating power.

DaPino wrote:

shyzo wrote:
Hi everyone.
It always bothered me: why an AP3 laser beam is just as innefective against 2+ armor as an AP6 ork pistol? Isn't an overheated laser charge more likely to penetrate armor than a regular bullet? It just seems logical.
So, I've came up with this idea: number you need to roll for a successful armor save must depend on AP value of weapon firing at you. Formula is: successful save = your profile Sv + (7-AP of weapon).
Example: Terminator is being shot with AP5 bolter. So, his armor will save him on (2+)+(7-5)=4+. If he is shot with AP3 killkannon then he will be saved only on (2+)+(7-3)=6+. His armor is useless against AP2 and AP1. Thus, it will make invulnerables more valuable because they are not affected by AP and providing your units a good cover will be necessary. We will no longer see a bunch of heavily armored dudes just walking casually among artillery rounds blowing around and bullets flying everywhere.
I know this will generate insane amounts of rage. But this can change the whole game. 2+armored units will no longer be able to shrug off 86% of everything. Using highly armored units will require nore tactical thinking instead of just"drop them anywhere and watch everything being ripped apart". You have to be extra cautious if even regular bolter fire can seriously damage your precious Termies!
What do you people think?

Because that's how physics work. Hitting a steel beam with a sharp stone is going to be as ineffective as hitting a steel beam with a leather belt, even though a stone should have more penetrating power.

The leather belt will take several million hits before it goes through the steel beam, whereas the stone might only need a few thousand.

Besides, if you accelerate both to say Mach five, I'm pretty sure the stone does the trick where the belt does nothing.

I would like a simplified system that allows for progressive effectiveness. It shouldn't be all or nothing, better AP ammo and weapons will be more effective at damaging or disabling armor even if it doesn't pierce it. That's why you usually have to replace a helmet or armor after it gets hit, it gets structurally damaged.

I would like weapons to range from -0 to -3 to armor.

Ap -/6 becomes -0
Ap 5/4 becomes -1
Ap 3 becomes -2
Ap 2/1 becomes -3

@TheSilo.
I totally agree if we are going to use AP values as modifiers, than we need to rationalize the values we use.

However, rather than use separate list of armour save modifiers.

Why not simply say the AP values ignores saves that roll equal or higher.

EG
AP 6 ignores save rolls that roll 6.
AP 5 ignores saves rolls that roll 5 or 6.
AP 4 ignores save rolls that roll 4 ,5 or 6.

Eg a SM with a save of 3+ hit by a Heavy Bolter AP 5, only gets to save on a roll of 3 or 4. (Rolls of 5 and 6 are ignored.)

This system also allows INV saves to be taken all the time.

INV saves simply ignore the effect of weapon AP of the same or higher values.

EG A SM captain in power Armour and Conversion field,Save 3+ 5++.
IS hit by a melta gun AP 4.

Normally this means the Captain would only save on the roll of 3.(As rolls of 4 5 and 6 are ignored by the weapon AP.)
However, the INV save ignore the weapon AP values of equal or higher value.(Inv values count ALL the time!)
So the SM captain actually saves on a 3,5or 6.

I may need to explain that better?

Lanrak wrote:
@TheSilo.
I totally agree if we are going to use AP values as modifiers, than we need to rationalize the values we use.

However, rather than use separate list of armour save modifiers.

Why not simply say the AP values ignores saves that roll equal or higher.

EG
AP 6 ignores save rolls that roll 6.
AP 5 ignores saves rolls that roll 5 or 6.
AP 4 ignores save rolls that roll 4 ,5 or 6.

Eg a SM with a save of 3+ hit by a Heavy Bolter AP 5, only gets to save on a roll of 3 or 4. (Rolls of 5 and 6 are ignored.)

This system also allows INV saves to be taken all the time.

INV saves simply ignore the effect of weapon AP of the same or higher values.

EG A SM captain in power Armour and Conversion field,Save 3+ 5++.
IS hit by a melta gun AP 4.

Normally this means the Captain would only save on the roll of 3.(As rolls of 4 5 and 6 are ignored by the weapon AP.)
However, the INV save ignore the weapon AP values of equal or higher value.(Inv values count ALL the time!)
So the SM captain actually saves on a 3,5or 6.

I may need to explain that better?

It sounds needlessly complicated. It's mathematically identical to AP6 worsening saves by one step/AP5 worsening saves by two steps et cetera, only you have to keep two numbers in the forefront of your mind when rolling thirty saves because someone just dropped a Deathstorm next to your Orks and it'd be harder to visually pick out the correct dice.

Do YOU want another half hour added to the game slowing it down confusing and turning away new players?

The solution is to use a save system not based off a single D6. As it stands, the modifiers of 2nd ed don't work because there is not enough range in the set of possible armor types. Saves would need to be taken with D20s to have a proper system.

To give you a glimpse of how the old armor modifier system worked, I once had a game where I was tabled by sonic blasters before I even got to take a turn. Sonic blasters had a -2 armor save and two sustained fire dice. So... yeah.

Martel732 wrote:
The solution is to use a save system not based off a single D6. As it stands, the modifiers of 2nd ed don't work because there is not enough range in the set of possible armor types. Saves would need to be taken with D20s to have a proper system.

To give you a glimpse of how the old armor modifier system worked, I once had a game where I was tabled by sonic blasters before I even got to take a turn. Sonic blasters had a -2 armor save and two sustained fire dice. So... yeah.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Do YOU want another half hour added to the game slowing it down confusing and turning away new players?

Current AP rules make no sense. People implying otherwise with some "steel plate" examples just show how little they know about how projectiles work.

It's like the old "can an arrow penetrate a steel chestpiece?". It can, if shot by a powerful enough bow and from a close enough distance (less than 30m with a longbow iirc).

An Armor Reduction system would be much more logical than the current "autocannon tears carapace armor like if it were paper but get a power armor set and you'll laugh it off" nonsense. It just has to be done right. It's not that difficult.

AP6 -> no AP.
AP5 -> AP-1
AP4 -> AP-2
AP3 -> AP-3
AP2 -> AP-4
AP1 -> AP-5

Of course distance is relevant, as projectiles lose power and speed over distance. Any shot over half of the weapon's max range loses 1 AP point. So boltguns have no AP over 12'', heavy bolters are just AP-1 over 18'', etc.

Then you make cover relevant by allowing models to take both armor and cover saves, first the cover save then the armor one. If the low brick wall doesn't stop the bullet, your armor will give you another chance.

It's true termies will become more vulnerable - specially in close distances. You can easily solve that by giving them 1+ armor save. That way you can keep ignoring boltguns all the same.

A bit more complicated than the current system? Maybe. But I see much more sense in it. Honestly I don't think this would make new players run from 40k like the plague, if they can swallow the current ruleset nothing will scare them away.

Even at less than 30 meters, there's little chance that the wound will be deep enough to kill. And then you have the padding that goes under the metal plate.

The old system- where SV modifiers were primarily (but not exclusively) based on strength. I see nothing wrong with this. But these save modifiers don't work in the vacuum they appear to being discussed in.

Back during the days of save modifiers there were also to hit modifiers. Yes a guardian with a shuriken catapult could rip up a marine- *if he could hit him*. There was another aspect to survivability that I think, if you're looking at save modifiers, you need to also look at.

A marine in a bunker should be harder to kill than a marine in the open ALWAYS. Not just if you fire a particularly large weapon.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Even at less than 30 meters, there's little chance that the wound will be deep enough to kill. And then you have the padding that goes under the metal plate.

Of course. Not to mention a longbowman would be in serious trouble if his enemies were only 30 metres away when he finished that shot.

I was just trying to make an example of how the "either it penetrates the armor or it does not" mantra is bs. The same weapon may or may not penetrate the same armor depending on multiple conditions.

shyzo wrote:
Hi everyone.
It always bothered me: why an AP3 laser beam is just as innefective against 2+ armor as an AP6 ork pistol? Isn't an overheated laser charge more likely to penetrate armor than a regular bullet? It just seems logical.
So, I've came up with this idea: number you need to roll for a successful armor save must depend on AP value of weapon firing at you. Formula is: successful save = your profile Sv + (7-AP of weapon).
Example: Terminator is being shot with AP5 bolter. So, his armor will save him on (2+)+(7-5)=4+. If he is shot with AP3 killkannon then he will be saved only on (2+)+(7-3)=6+. His armor is useless against AP2 and AP1. Thus, it will make invulnerables more valuable because they are not affected by AP and providing your units a good cover will be necessary. We will no longer see a bunch of heavily armored dudes just walking casually among artillery rounds blowing around and bullets flying everywhere.
I know this will generate insane amounts of rage. But this can change the whole game. 2+armored units will no longer be able to shrug off 86% of everything. Using highly armored units will require nore tactical thinking instead of just"drop them anywhere and watch everything being ripped apart". You have to be extra cautious if even regular bolter fire can seriously damage your precious Termies!
What do you people think?

It doesn't really matter, both will bounce of armour just as easily.

The system you are stating would make army planning worthless. You could just load up 6 troop squads of 15 AP 5 units. this would mean that power armour is a 5+ save. In rapid fire range with a CSM squad you would get 30 shots average rolls means 20 hits and 15 wounds. Power armor now being a 5+ you would lose 10 units after that first attack. At 13 points per model you just lost 130 points of your army in one shooting attack. say only 2 of the 6 are in rapid fire and the others are in single shot range that means after the first turn you would have lost 40 units or 520 points. take this same logic to a SM or CSM squad against some 4+ elder army and you now have a 6+ save and they would be losing 70%-80% of there units in the same situation.

The current system is actually quite realistic. A kevlar vest is rated to a certain caliber, while a porcelain plated vest is rated to a higher level. This being said I have seen people get there kevlar vest that was rated to a 9mm get penetrated by a 22 round and have also seen the same vest stop a 5.56 when there was no way it should have.

What ever the op proposed, I do not understand it and I do not support it.

DaPino wrote:

shyzo wrote:
Hi everyone.
It always bothered me: why an AP3 laser beam is just as innefective against 2+ armor as an AP6 ork pistol? Isn't an overheated laser charge more likely to penetrate armor than a regular bullet? It just seems logical.
So, I've came up with this idea: number you need to roll for a successful armor save must depend on AP value of weapon firing at you. Formula is: successful save = your profile Sv + (7-AP of weapon).
Example: Terminator is being shot with AP5 bolter. So, his armor will save him on (2+)+(7-5)=4+. If he is shot with AP3 killkannon then he will be saved only on (2+)+(7-3)=6+. His armor is useless against AP2 and AP1. Thus, it will make invulnerables more valuable because they are not affected by AP and providing your units a good cover will be necessary. We will no longer see a bunch of heavily armored dudes just walking casually among artillery rounds blowing around and bullets flying everywhere.
I know this will generate insane amounts of rage. But this can change the whole game. 2+armored units will no longer be able to shrug off 86% of everything. Using highly armored units will require nore tactical thinking instead of just"drop them anywhere and watch everything being ripped apart". You have to be extra cautious if even regular bolter fire can seriously damage your precious Termies!
What do you people think?

Because that's how physics work. Hitting a steel beam with a sharp stone is going to be as ineffective as hitting a steel beam with a leather belt, even though a stone should have more penetrating power.

To be even more precise, body armor is actually graded based on the type of bullets it can stop. Level I armor is the lowest, and isn't good for much more than a .22 LR. Level II will stop small handgun rounds. Level III and IIIA will stop most common handgun rounds and in the case of IIIA, some magnum rounds as well. Level IV will stop pretty much any handgun and small calibre rifles like most assault rifles. Level V will stop more powerful rifle rounds as well, but there's a limit to how much armor you can effectively put on a person, and that limit won't stop a .50 cal.