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Kangodo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If you dont enjoy super heavies, fliers, and drastic imbalance, then maybe 40k isn't for you.

Or.. I could.. you know..
Find an opponent that also doesn't like them? Because that is quite easy to do, seeing as most people don't seem to enjoy them that much.

I have no horse in this race but where do you get that 'most people don't enjoy' fliers or superheavies? (no comment about the drastic imbalamce, you'd have to be a....special kind of person to enjoy drastic imbalance in a tabletop wargame ).

I don't know if people have not picked up on this but they are already negotiating some elements - ie the OP is using a 5th Ed Dark Eldar list rather than the new one.

And i don't know if people have also missed the part where it sounds like this opponent seems relatively easy to Out-manoeuvre.

Is OP playing 7th Ed. Maelstrom of War?

Maybe try a Cities of Death mission, see if that lets you win all the games =P

Its ok. They may not be classed as a LOW but they are a LOW regardless and thus if you are not bringing a LoW then it is justified to ask you opponent not to bring one. I have the same view on ranged D-weapons. If you are not bringing a ranged D-Weapon, then I am not going to bring one unless I ask first and you give your approval. Its rude, unfun, and unsportsmanlike to bring LOW superheavies when your opponent cannot effectively counter them as they pretty much require a tailored list to face them.

Again, not if you're playing the right mission.

I remember having a rather standard Army list facing a Space Marine army built around a Fellblade.
Played Relic.

Yes almost all of my Units died in trying to overwhelm with Targets.
Barely took 1-2 HP off the thing...

Still won the Game by having 3 models holding the Relic by Turn 6

 jasper76 wrote:
Why should anyone waste time playing games that they don't think are fun?

So playing without a chance to win or with limited chances to win is not fun? Isnt that WAAC douchebag attitude? Just play, get decimated and watch one of the kind tragic story unfolding before your eyes, write a book then if you like.

Seriously laid back casual gentleman players need to make up their minds, you can never say what one wants from a game.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Why should anyone waste time playing games that they don't think are fun?

So playing without a chance to win or with limited chances to win is not fun? Isnt that WAAC douchebag attitude? Just play, get decimated and watch one of the kind tragic story unfolding before your eyes, write a book then if you like.

Seriously laid back casual gentleman players need to make up their minds, you can never say what one wants from a game.

It's not WAAC douchebag attitude to expect a fair chance of winning. Only in the GW world is fairplay looked down on.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Why should anyone waste time playing games that they don't think are fun?

So playing without a chance to win or with limited chances to win is not fun? Isnt that WAAC douchebag attitude?

No it most certainly is not, wtf.
Bringing an army your opponent cannot possibly beat if he specifically asks you not to, that's a WAAC douchebag attitude.

If I bring an AV 12 vehicle list and all you bring is bolters, I highly doubt that you'll be having fun because you will literally be equal to a bystander because nothing you do will have any effect on the game.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Why should anyone waste time playing games that they don't think are fun?

So playing without a chance to win or with limited chances to win is not fun? Isnt that WAAC douchebag attitude? Just play, get decimated and watch one of the kind tragic story unfolding before your eyes, write a book then if you like.

Seriously laid back casual gentleman players need to make up their minds, you can never say what one wants from a game.

You're reading too much into what I was saying. The OP doesn't have fun playing against IKs. Why then should he waste his gaming time playing against IKs? Games are supposed to be fun for people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. Bringing 2 IKs in a 1500 point game, game after game after game, and being a prick about winning..
here starts to develop the image of a WAAC player.

DaPino wrote:
It is not 'wrong' to ask your opponent not to bring a knight.

However, if you play this guy regularly, I would consider letting him take his knight once in a while if he asks for it.
I had to deal with lots of people who didn't want super-heavies in their games and since I have 4 of them, that made me sad because I had put a lot of work into painting them.

So hence came the solution, someone came to me and asked me to play a game in which I used one of my super-heavies. Reason: He had a tourney and super-heavy was allowed, but he had no experience handling them.
To make a long story short, my Lord of Skulls finally saw some table time, people saw the game and came to the conclusion that a lot of superheavies aren't that amazing rules-wise resulting in me being able to field a super-heavy once in a while on the condition that I let them know in advance that I will be bringing 'a superheavy'.

Geez, handling things like a reasonable adult? HERESY!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:

P.S. Bringing 2 IKs in a 1500 point game, game after game after game, and being a prick about winning..
here starts to develop the image of a WAAC player.

My thoughts exactly. I know a guy who has 3 IK, tons of Ork flyers, and tons of DE flyers. He uses them to curbstomp other players, usually people who don't have the models to deal with it. I brought three Land Raiders against his Grey Knights in a Maelstrom game and beat the pants off him objectives wise and he got super butthurt.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 jreilly89 wrote:

My thoughts exactly. I know a guy who has 3 IK, tons of Ork flyers, and tons of DE flyers. He uses them to curbstomp other players, usually people who don't have the models to deal with it. I brought three Land Raiders against his Grey Knights in a Maelstrom game and beat the pants off him objectives wise and he got super butthurt.

Hehe. Lack of grace in defeat...the hallmark of the WAAC player.

For real? He allies IKs with Orks and Dark Eldar??? That wouldn't fly around these parts, allies chart be damned.

OP here! Time for update three.

I have scoured all of your responses (literally, all), and there are some nuggets of good advice in here, without a doubt.

I'd like to ask certain posters, who shall not be named, to take their personal arguments somewhere else, as they have ceased to be helpful. And to stop using "op" in vain.

I did not say I could not handle any vehicles, and by extension, wish them removed from all 40K. As you can see from my list, I am a little light on AT, but I have enough to compete in most games.

My AT for DE consists of 6 Dark Lances and potentially twenty haywire grenades (twenty wyches).

To those who say I should be willing to drop elements of my own army- I think you are correct. That seems only fair.

I should also have allowed more time to tell the opponent that I preferred not to play Knights again. This i would have allowed him more time to change his list, or for us to negotiate.

I would be happy for my opponent to use one Knight at 1500pts. This seems proportionate.

I totally get those who say that I should be updating and changing my army to cater to these new threats. I may do this, but my DE list was built as a themed, uniquely converted, narrative heavy list. I feel that to suddenly plump for venoms with blaster-born does not fit my narrative army. Should I sacrifice that to be able to compete?

Those who mentioned I should find other narrative, fluffy players: great idea, as there wouldn't be the clash of tourny/ fluff mindset. Unfortunately, my local area is competitive, so they are hard to find. But I will try.

So what actually happened in the end? Did you ask them if they could not use their knights?

I find the Lemman Russ examples kind of a strange. Sure maybe 3 LR have the same resilince as a knight in a void. But unlike the LR the knights actualy does kill models and not 2-3 meq per turn,if it doesn't scater too much. And if somehow the LoW using player failed to cast invisibility every turn.

A squadron of russes dies to a turn one drop pod full of melta sternguard or centurion, if they get lucky rolling 6s. a knight does not even if he goes second because two will placed in a such a way that both will be shielded and from turn 1+ they will have invisbility on.

Ah and IG has no way to deliver a first turn melta in to 6" or under range.

nareik wrote:
To refresh the perspective of the thread the question asked isn't to do with tournaments.

It is a guy going to a local club where he only has one possible opponent; a guy playing with 2 knights and sisters.

Firstly, I don't think there is any harm in diplomatically suggesting double knights will give your collection a game that neither player would enjoy and as such changing the parameters of the game.

My suggestion is consider playing something different; perhaps a game of zone mortalis, or a series of quick 600 point games. Alternatively make sure you have plenty of terrain/objectives that is unfriendly to the knight if you are forced to face it.

If playing against the knights becomes inevitable don't despair. Use low cost defensive tactics to mitigate the damage the knights can do and make sure to focus on easy objectives rather than getting tied up in trying to destroy the knights.

If you can simply ignore the knights and still make a game of it then ignoring the knights is a valid tactic.

Heck, do scenarios, and limit units based on that for your game. Those are typically more fun anyway.

 Frazzled wrote:

nareik wrote:
To refresh the perspective of the thread the question asked isn't to do with tournaments.

It is a guy going to a local club where he only has one possible opponent; a guy playing with 2 knights and sisters.

Firstly, I don't think there is any harm in diplomatically suggesting double knights will give your collection a game that neither player would enjoy and as such changing the parameters of the game.

My suggestion is consider playing something different; perhaps a game of zone mortalis, or a series of quick 600 point games. Alternatively make sure you have plenty of terrain/objectives that is unfriendly to the knight if you are forced to face it.

If playing against the knights becomes inevitable don't despair. Use low cost defensive tactics to mitigate the damage the knights can do and make sure to focus on easy objectives rather than getting tied up in trying to destroy the knights.

If you can simply ignore the knights and still make a game of it then ignoring the knights is a valid tactic.

Heck, do scenarios, and limit units based on that for your game. Those are typically more fun anyway.

One of my favourite types of scenarios to play when one player has a LoW or Super Heavy and the other player doesn't, is to allow the non-LoW player the ability to continuously recycle their destroyed units and bring them back onto the table to represent a never ending tide of superior numbers/reinforcements.

See how long the 'out numbered' defenders can last before the overwhelming numbers of the enemy eventually drag them down, then for more fun, switch sides and see if the LoW player can take-out their own army faster!

Now were cooking with sriracha!

Campaigns and scenarios are a good way to deal with this kind of stuff.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
So what actually happened in the end? Did you ask them if they could not use their knights?

I didn't ask him in the end. We did not play, as work got pretty hectic today and I was unable to get to the club. I rang and called it off, Knights not mentioned. For the future, if we try to play again, I will ask if he can just use one Knight, or we'll negotiate something we're both happy with.

Without sounding too crass. As you've asked for opinions, I'll give you some insight in to mine.

While playing against knights may not be the best, (i play one and have played against them before getting my own)it is still part of the game. Would you at a tournament ask a guy to swap his knight out?

You cant really expect someone to take something out because you don't know how to deal with it.

And IG las spam can deal with it quite proficiently.

 Scoundrel13 wrote:
For the future, if we try to play again, I will ask if he can just use one Knight, or we'll negotiate something we're both happy with.

That's the best way to do it, just talk to them and see if they are willing to or not, if they are great, if not well not so great. at that point you would need to decide if you would rather play against knights or not play at all. The biggest thing is its just a game if you can't both have fun in the game playing together then you shouldn't be playing each other.

 Wolves for the Wolf God wrote:
You cant really expect someone to take something out because you don't know how to deal with it.

I don't necessarily think it's a case of expecting your opponent to do something to make you happy but rather it being okay to ASK whether they would be willing to do something.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wolves for the Wolf God wrote:
You cant really expect someone to take something out because you don't know how to deal with it.

I don't necessarily think it's a case of expecting your opponent to do something to make you happy but rather it being okay to ASK whether they would be willing to do something.

Also, I am asked semi-frequently not to use my Transcendent C'Tan, and these boards of full of people who refuse to play against one.

If people let me know they don't have fun playing against one of my models, why would I have fun using it against them? Cruelty?

Hi Scoundrel, I don't know if this has been suggested, but I think I would ask my opponent if he's fine if I proxy one or several superheavies (playing IG), I think Shadowsword is the Titankiller version of the Baneblade.

It may have been said but I'm not invested enough to read the whole thread. Write your own missions, why not try mixing it up a bit?

You could play long ways on the board. Your objective is to get as many units as possible across the table as possible his is to stop you. 1 point for each unit that crosses. After all units have crossed or been destroyed switch sides, you use his and he uses yours.

Just an idea, no idea if it would be fun, but basically you should be able to enjoy yourself with uneven games just by tweaking your objectives and switching sides, as a bonus you both get to play with an army you might not normally experience.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why did this become such a huge thread? Holy cow.

Why can no one give the OP a clear and concise answer to his simple question. Is he breaking any rules of the game or being TFG by asking his opponent to not take a knight.

Generally questions have question marks at the end of them. If you'd actually read the thread you'd see plenty of people answering the op.

Aren't you brilliant! you can use proper punctuation! Do you teach English and so have an insatiable need to pick at peoples use of grammar on the internet? Jezz dude.

 Scoundrel13 wrote:
Hello Dakka.

40K moral dilemma for you here. For my gaming club tomorrow night, there's only one guy I can possibly play against. He uses two Knights at 1500pts with outflanking melta-wielding Sisters in Rhinos to support.

I use quite fluffy armies (either Guard or Dark Eldar), and neither has the raw firepower or combat ability to deal with Knights. Last time out, using my IG, I was stomped all over the board despite throwing everything at those damn Knights.

Is it wrong to ask him to leave them at home this time? Am I being naive to not be building lists that can deal with Knights (I don't have the models without serious investment)? Should I simply try to enjoy playing a game where I have little to no chance of winning, no matter how tactically masterful I am? Otherwise I'm sitting at home with no war-gaming tomorrow.

Have at it, internet.

Politely ask your opponent if he would mind not fielding them. If he refuses, then you have 2 clear choices: either you stop playing with him or you adapt your list so you can kill his Knights. As for Guard tactics, a decent 1500pts list would be a tank commander with 2 extra leman russes, all of them having demolisher cannons, lascannons and heavy bolters as a HQ, 3 veteran squads with 3 meltas and autocannons and a heavy weapons squad with Lascannons behind an aegis defence line. Then in reserve, 10 scions with 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol in a vendetta. Watch the smug look melt off his face when he's faced with demolisher cannons that glance his front armour on a 3+ and scions with hellguns that will make short work of his sisters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why did this become such a huge thread? Holy cow.

Why can no one give the OP a clear and concise answer to his simple question. Is he breaking any rules of the game or being TFG by asking his opponent to not take a knight.

Generally questions have question marks at the end of them. If you'd actually read the thread you'd see plenty of people answering the op.

Aren't you brilliant! you can use proper punctuation! Do you teach English and so have an insatiable need to pick at peoples use of grammar on the internet? Jezz dude.

It's jeez, not jezz

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The forgeworld Daemon Lords like An'ggrath can challenge a knight and strike one down. The Decimator also has a melee weapon capable of threatening a knight. Both of these are considered daemon units compatible with a daemon army.

Soul Grinders and the Decimator are I3, the Knight is I4. They'd never survive long enough to make any melee attacks. An'ggrath is a solution, but when one of your top most reliable solutions to a four hundred point vehicle anyone can take whenever they feel like it is a nine hundred point character Gargantuan Creature something's gone horribly wrong. Since that comment I've gone back over the Daemons book and I'm thinking suicide Screamers might be their best bet against Knights, since they hit at I4 (so the Knight can't kill them before they can attack, which is the issue with 95% of things you'd challenge a Knight in melee with), they're relatively inexpensive, fast enough to chase it down, and a unit of three has not half bad odds to strip a hull point or two (and it's AP2 so you can get lucky).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

natpri771 wrote:

 Scoundrel13 wrote:
Hello Dakka.

40K moral dilemma for you here. For my gaming club tomorrow night, there's only one guy I can possibly play against. He uses two Knights at 1500pts with outflanking melta-wielding Sisters in Rhinos to support.

I use quite fluffy armies (either Guard or Dark Eldar), and neither has the raw firepower or combat ability to deal with Knights. Last time out, using my IG, I was stomped all over the board despite throwing everything at those damn Knights.

Is it wrong to ask him to leave them at home this time? Am I being naive to not be building lists that can deal with Knights (I don't have the models without serious investment)? Should I simply try to enjoy playing a game where I have little to no chance of winning, no matter how tactically masterful I am? Otherwise I'm sitting at home with no war-gaming tomorrow.

Have at it, internet.

Politely ask your opponent if he would mind not fielding them. If he refuses, then you have 2 clear choices: either you stop playing with him or you adapt your list so you can kill his Knights. May I suggest Vendettas and Leman Russ demolishers for your guard?

Ally in D99 and throw a melta-Executioner squad at it!

DaPino wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Why should anyone waste time playing games that they don't think are fun?

So playing without a chance to win or with limited chances to win is not fun? Isnt that WAAC douchebag attitude?

No it most certainly is not, wtf.
Bringing an army your opponent cannot possibly beat if he specifically asks you not to, that's a WAAC douchebag attitude.

If I bring an AV 12 vehicle list and all you bring is bolters, I highly doubt that you'll be having fun because you will literally be equal to a bystander because nothing you do will have any effect on the game.

Well that bolter list you mention would be as useless as your hyperbole and if you make one, you lack basic understanding of the game and cant expect to have fun unless you find the other 2 guys in the entire world that comprehend as much. Its a different topic, I meant a hard desperate matchup, it should be fun for a fluff casual player, they do it to roll dice eat a beer and drink a pretzel and who cares about winning etc.

Also it was a semi serious post, I just enjoy turning the casual player favourite WAAC douchebag term against them. In fact I have the mind of a competitive player but dont use competitive lists, they range from decent to mediocore but I enjoy the hard matchups and never cry to someone to remove models because op and always acknowledge if my win comes from paricular imbalance on the table, on the other hand the officialy casual player I know will throw rules lawyers, op etc at everyone and find every excuse for loosing but if he wins, he acts like it was exactly his tactical acumen and Napoleon worthy maneuvers that granted him victory. At that point, anyone making even a slight constructive remark about the game is sore looser for him and a stupid grin on his face puts the 'dont care about winnning' part into serious doubt.

Anyway I find the whole issue of caring for opponent enjoyment and a pressure to handicap ridiculous and cringe at the threads like 'will I be tfg for taking a second riptide' or sth. Seriously a special game with special snowflake players, outside of straight idiotic matchups like bolters vs tanks or foot cc nids vs flyer wing you should play instead of walking around like that important lady in a cloth shop looking for something special for herself.

And if you dont like it, take it to GW not to player who fields his IK or ctan or serpents. Its their game their crap balance etc.