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Looking over the BA Codex I see that there are merits behind taking any of the HQ choices with a DC squad. Question is which one to take. What is more points cost effective, maximizing firepower, soaking wounds, or buffing?

Captain-
Mainly a beatstick, useful for soaking up wounds if you give him artificer armor and a storm shield, but adding in all the other wargear can make him as pricey as the squad itself. WS6 and I5 are nice though. Can perform a semi-buff role by using the relic jump pack.

Chaplain-
4+ invuln might seem crappy but its better than nothing for 105 points with a JP, and a free S6AP4 concussive weapon. His stats are decent and the re-roll on the charge buff is nice. But at 2 wounds and 3+ armor he's fragile.

Librarian-
Might be the most attractive option given the buffs he has access to with biomancy, divination, and sanguinary. Honestly I would go biomancy or divination every time, seems like the potential for those powers far outweighs the usefulness of the sanguinary powers. He still is susceptible to fragility like the chaplain, but more versatile. Also you have that whole thing of, will I get my powers off and will my opponent deny thing if your opponent has enough psykers on his end.

The named HQ's are what I am not really familiar with. But assuming were talking about a single DC squad in a vacuum as opposed to an entire blood angels army, what is the best option here?

Librarians are strong, particularly with the sanguinary discipline. Unleash rage and shield of sanguinius are fantastic on death co, and with the quickening the librarian is actually a strong combat character.

Captains should really only have a jump pack, arty armor and valours edge. That comes to a cool 145 points and can soak wounds and kill almost verything in the game.

A Storm Shield is 15 more points for a 3+ invuln save over the 4+. Worth it or no?

I would say no unless youre going for a thunder hammer/fist as his weapon, because you lose out on an extra attack. But then again if you do that then you forgo a possible init of 7 on the charge.

Chaplains may have lost Liturgies of Blood, but they still make the DC reroll hits on the charge so that is good. I think all of the basic HQs are pretty good. The Librarian really makes the DC shine with stuff like Biomancy or Sanguinary though. With Sanguinary, the Quickening allows the Librarian to keep up with the DC.

I wish Sanguinary Priests interacted with DC better. Sure, you are giving them back their 5WS, but I think the FNP should be improved when they are there. Would make DC really earn that Elites slot.

I thought Death Company were essentially the best choice in the Elite Slot casval?

 ultimentra wrote:
I thought Death Company were essentially the best choice in the Elite Slot casval?

They are pretty well uncontested. But if they had improved FNP and 5WS they would be one of the best Elites in the game.

because FNP on average elites isn't already a great addition to your forces on the field?

Sanguinary Priests are too important to be hanging out with the suicidal berserkers. They need to be hanging with Sanguinary Guard or Vanguards from the Sanguine Wing formation (seriously, 32 points for a jump pack, stormshield and power weapon with 2 base attacks is pretty legit). They need the WS5 more with their fewer attacks and better weapons, and they benefit greatly from the FNP as well.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
because FNP on average elites isn't already a great addition to your forces on the field?

Of course, but I want MORE I still think the Reclusiarch should be a thing too, with Liturgies of Blood like Astorath has. But GWs has decided that BA Successors don't get Chapter Masters or Reclusiarchs, and that is crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HandofMars wrote:
Sanguinary Priests are too important to be hanging out with the suicidal berserkers. They need to be hanging with Sanguinary Guard or Vanguards from the Sanguine Wing formation (seriously, 32 points for a jump pack, stormshield and power weapon with 2 base attacks is pretty legit). They need the WS5 more with their fewer attacks and better weapons, and they benefit greatly from the FNP as well.

Very true. But if they had something more to offer the Black-armored maniacs too, that would be nice.

I actually am having a hard time figuring out where to put my Sanguinary Priest because of this. He has Angel's Wing, so he could run with the Sanguinary Guard, but he could also run with my Vanguard Veterans from the Angel's Wrath formation so they don't scatter as much. If they buffed DC more than just +1 WS, they would be riding with them no contest.

HandofMars wrote:
Sanguinary Priests are too important to be hanging out with the suicidal berserkers. They need to be hanging with Sanguinary Guard or Vanguards from the Sanguine Wing formation (seriously, 32 points for a jump pack, stormshield and power weapon with 2 base attacks is pretty legit). They need the WS5 more with their fewer attacks and better weapons, and they benefit greatly from the FNP as well.

Im in this camp as well. Sanguinary guard look pretty mediocre next to death company without a priest, but once the priest joins the unit, they become exponentially better. This is why i run both =)

 th3maninblak wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Sanguinary Priests are too important to be hanging out with the suicidal berserkers. They need to be hanging with Sanguinary Guard or Vanguards from the Sanguine Wing formation (seriously, 32 points for a jump pack, stormshield and power weapon with 2 base attacks is pretty legit). They need the WS5 more with their fewer attacks and better weapons, and they benefit greatly from the FNP as well.

Im in this camp as well. Sanguinary guard look pretty mediocre next to death company without a priest, but once the priest joins the unit, they become exponentially better. This is why i run both =)

They already reroll attacks because of Master-crafted, so WS5 is less of a boon to them. But FNP makes them more survivable, so that is good.

Oh, and OP, the Chaplain ends up with a S7 AP4 weapon when you charge due to FC. He smacks with the force of an Autocannon, and that is awesome. But if you give a Captain a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, and Artificer Armor, he has a Str 7 AP 3 on the charge, and 2+/3++ saves with better stats than the Chappy. That is a bit of a toughy.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Sanguinary Priests are too important to be hanging out with the suicidal berserkers. They need to be hanging with Sanguinary Guard or Vanguards from the Sanguine Wing formation (seriously, 32 points for a jump pack, stormshield and power weapon with 2 base attacks is pretty legit). They need the WS5 more with their fewer attacks and better weapons, and they benefit greatly from the FNP as well.

Im in this camp as well. Sanguinary guard look pretty mediocre next to death company without a priest, but once the priest joins the unit, they become exponentially better. This is why i run both =)

They already reroll attacks because of Master-crafted, so WS5 is less of a boon to them. But FNP makes them more survivable, so that is good.

Master-crafted only re-rolls one attack, so WS5 still helps a lot and the two bonuses combined ensure that on average you will hit with all 3 attacks on the charge vs. WS4 or lower.

HandofMars wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Sanguinary Priests are too important to be hanging out with the suicidal berserkers. They need to be hanging with Sanguinary Guard or Vanguards from the Sanguine Wing formation (seriously, 32 points for a jump pack, stormshield and power weapon with 2 base attacks is pretty legit). They need the WS5 more with their fewer attacks and better weapons, and they benefit greatly from the FNP as well.

Im in this camp as well. Sanguinary guard look pretty mediocre next to death company without a priest, but once the priest joins the unit, they become exponentially better. This is why i run both =)

They already reroll attacks because of Master-crafted, so WS5 is less of a boon to them. But FNP makes them more survivable, so that is good.

Master-crafted only re-rolls one attack, so WS5 still helps a lot and the two bonuses combined ensure that on average you will hit with all 3 attacks on the charge vs. WS4 or lower.

Good point. I forgot that it is only one attack. So Sanguinary+Sanguinary=Good.

Sanguinary+Sanguinary DOES equal good. That phrase is catchy, and i like it.

My usual setup for sanguinary guard is 5 dudes with 3 swords, 2 fists and a chapter banner. 4 ws5 init5 str5 ap3 attacks on the charge each is pretty dang good.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Sanguinary+Sanguinary DOES equal good. That phrase is catchy, and i like it.

My usual setup for sanguinary guard is 5 dudes with 3 swords, 2 fists and a chapter banner. 4 ws5 init5 str5 ap3 attacks on the charge each is pretty dang good.

That is too many fists, IMO. Having 8 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge would be a bit overkill. One with the banner is going to get off 4 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge. If something lives through that, it didn't deserve to die, especially when the rest of the squad is taken into account. I run one axe just because it is free AP2. I may come to regret not giving him a sword.

Back to the topic, I think both the Chaplain and the Librarian have the most to offer the Death Company themselves between the attack reroll and psyker powers, but the Captain fits in a little better with the squad themselves. They have more wounds and better stats and saves. They don't come cheap though. A Captain with a JP, AA, Relic Blade, and SS comes in at 165 pts or something. And DC have a nice target painted on them.

My problem with including Librarian is that he's a really weak character in challenges.
A great force multiplier for the Death Company, but a Chaplain has the advantage for being able to challenge the Power Fist Sergeant/equivalent in challenges before it hurts your Death Company.
I would never risk a Librarian in a challenge if the opponent had anything better than his fists to hit with.

While Librarian's abilities seem to be greater than those of a Chaplain, the Chaplain is more of a combat character and therefore works with the Death Company really well.

I dont know if there are any rules about attaching to death company, so here are some ideas

I think Gabriel Seth and a librarian would be funny. Librarian quickens Seth. Seth gets a stupid amount of attacks in his wound ball that also gets a stupid amount of attacks.

Astorath is obvious

I think it would also be funny to bring Dante a jump priest and jump librarian as well. Dante tanks wounds on his 2+ 5+ or 4+ 5+ eternal warrior. Librarian quickens Dante. Librarian also roles shield and unleash rage if your lucky. Lolz follow.

I think all of these require a large dc ball. 1st with land raider crusader. Rest with jump packs.

Sanguinius librarian.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Sanguinary+Sanguinary DOES equal good. That phrase is catchy, and i like it.

My usual setup for sanguinary guard is 5 dudes with 3 swords, 2 fists and a chapter banner. 4 ws5 init5 str5 ap3 attacks on the charge each is pretty dang good.

That is too many fists, IMO. Having 8 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge would be a bit overkill. One with the banner is going to get off 4 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge. If something lives through that, it didn't deserve to die, especially when the rest of the squad is taken into account. I run one axe just because it is free AP2. I may come to regret not giving him a sword.

Back to the topic, I think both the Chaplain and the Librarian have the most to offer the Death Company themselves between the attack reroll and psyker powers, but the Captain fits in a little better with the squad themselves. They have more wounds and better stats and saves. They don't come cheap though. A Captain with a JP, AA, Relic Blade, and SS comes in at 165 pts or something. And DC have a nice target painted on them.

Not sure why everyone thinks the captain needs a storm shield. Artificer armor, valour's edge and a jump pack is all he really needs. Im finding that he EASILY makes up his points and is plenty durable with just the 4++.

I think the captain also has the most balance. He doesnt support the squad as well as the chaplain or libby, but has better stats than both and can actually accept challenges.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Sanguinary+Sanguinary DOES equal good. That phrase is catchy, and i like it.

My usual setup for sanguinary guard is 5 dudes with 3 swords, 2 fists and a chapter banner. 4 ws5 init5 str5 ap3 attacks on the charge each is pretty dang good.

That is too many fists, IMO. Having 8 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge would be a bit overkill. One with the banner is going to get off 4 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge. If something lives through that, it didn't deserve to die, especially when the rest of the squad is taken into account. I run one axe just because it is free AP2. I may come to regret not giving him a sword.

Back to the topic, I think both the Chaplain and the Librarian have the most to offer the Death Company themselves between the attack reroll and psyker powers, but the Captain fits in a little better with the squad themselves. They have more wounds and better stats and saves. They don't come cheap though. A Captain with a JP, AA, Relic Blade, and SS comes in at 165 pts or something. And DC have a nice target painted on them.

Not sure why everyone thinks the captain needs a storm shield. Artificer armor, valour's edge and a jump pack is all he really needs. Im finding that he EASILY makes up his points and is plenty durable with just the 4++.

Mostly because I forget about their Iron Halo. I don't know if Valour's Edge stacks up as well to a Relic Blade, though. An RB hits at Str7 on the charge.

I guess it comes down to which one is more important, S7 or AP2, we unfortunately can't have both.

The thing I figured out is that a decked out captain is almost as much as just taking Astorath.

In a vacuum, Dante's the best IC to put with Death Company (or Sanguinary Guard), as he can tank wounds, act as a beatstick, and MOST IMPORTANTLY provide Hit and Run, which keeps the Death Company zipping around the board CHARGING the enemy and gaining the benefits of Rage and Furious Charge. Hit and Run really is the one of the best abilities in the game...just ask any White Scars player.

But yeah, if you're not wanting to spend a bunch of points, a Librarian or Chaplain on a bike or with a Jump Pack is probably the way to go.

 soomemafia wrote:
My problem with including Librarian is that he's a really weak character in challenges.
A great force multiplier for the Death Company, but a Chaplain has the advantage for being able to challenge the Power Fist Sergeant/equivalent in challenges before it hurts your Death Company.
I would never risk a Librarian in a challenge if the opponent had anything better than his fists to hit with.

While Librarian's abilities seem to be greater than those of a Chaplain, the Chaplain is more of a combat character and therefore works with the Death Company really well.

I would be pretty confident of a Libby taking out Sargeant Fist, with Quickening he should have more than enough attacks even if some are fluffed. I do usually run mine with a Force Sword so he gets to attack first in most cases.

Astorath is the obvious DC leader, since he still offers all the rerolls. If a challenge scares him, just decline. It's not like the 80 billion s5 init 5 attacks with full rerolls need him to help.

I would rate most libbies 2nd. They could vary wildly in effectiveness depending on their powers. Shield of sang could be a great help if your DC are getting targeted by some ap3 or rending. Wings could help them cross the board when needed.
And then of course you could just take another discipline.

Plain ol' chaps 3rd for hatred.

Dante comes in at 4th for hit and run and being a bad mofo. I rank him low because if he's in a DC squad, it is now a deathstar, and will attract appropriate anti-deathstar fire power. By the time they get through a combat, he may be hit and running with like 2 guys left.

5th and below is beat stick hq's. I don't think DC really need them, they should go help a standard asm squad somewhere. Priests could be considered due to the ws5 buff, but really, why not just take a chap instead?

It's more about the DC's vunerability to Power Fists.

Astorath gives them a lot of advantages, but comes with a price.
It's not much more than a standard Captain and ability to take out Wraithknights is always worth it.
Overall he's worth a shot but that's all I'm willing to admit.

casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Sanguinary+Sanguinary DOES equal good. That phrase is catchy, and i like it.

My usual setup for sanguinary guard is 5 dudes with 3 swords, 2 fists and a chapter banner. 4 ws5 init5 str5 ap3 attacks on the charge each is pretty dang good.

That is too many fists, IMO. Having 8 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge would be a bit overkill. One with the banner is going to get off 4 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge. If something lives through that, it didn't deserve to die, especially when the rest of the squad is taken into account. I run one axe just because it is free AP2. I may come to regret not giving him a sword.

Back to the topic, I think both the Chaplain and the Librarian have the most to offer the Death Company themselves between the attack reroll and psyker powers, but the Captain fits in a little better with the squad themselves. They have more wounds and better stats and saves. They don't come cheap though. A Captain with a JP, AA, Relic Blade, and SS comes in at 165 pts or something. And DC have a nice target painted on them.

Given usual attrition rates, I do not think there is such a thing as "too many" of anything, much less fists. Overkill is the name of the game. I would be hesitant to buy the banner before spending those points on another dude. I probably wouldn't consider the banner over another model until I have 8 or so guys in the unit total (unit + ICs). It's a good item and you get a good return on your investment, but I like having my eggs in as many baskets as possible. Plus, the mental image of a bunch of jumppack dudes flying around with a flagpole is Wolfriculous.

th3maninblak wrote:Not sure why everyone thinks the captain needs a storm shield. Artificer armor, valour's edge and a jump pack is all he really needs. Im finding that he EASILY makes up his points and is plenty durable with just the 4++.

I think the captain also has the most balance. He doesnt support the squad as well as the chaplain or libby, but has better stats than both and can actually accept challenges.

I agree, if the Blood Angels had access to an Eternal Warrior Storm Shield, it would be a different story, since then you could take a captain and use him to facetank lascannons. Without Eternal Warrior, though, paying 15 points and losing an attack to go from 3+/4+i to 3+/3+i doesn't seem worth it on a character whose major draw is being cheap. For weapons, I would take the Valour's Edge, since AP2 at initiative and +1 attack is pretty sweet when you can get old school furious charge, plus it's cheaper (forgoing the storm shield and relic blade saves you 20 points... enough for artificer armour), and you can leave the tough stuff to the S8 powerfists.

...Cypher?

Handofmars just gets me, apparently. Though the banner is awesome at any squad size. Even with 5 dudes is 25 points for an extra 5 attacks.

I am now thinking of running a Chaplain along with Gabriel Seth(i play flesh tearers) for my DC(8 of them, with inferno pistol, 2 THs in a drop pod)
they will fall in the same time as a tactical squad with melta combi melta and heavy flamer/furioso dreadnought while Vanguard veterans with some SS and LCs with sanguinary priest equipped with relic jump pack deep strike. The drop pods will also have locator beacons since along woth VVs i have 2x5 assault marines with 2 meltaguns and combi melta/power sword veteran sargeant. In all honesty, i am expecting to survive only a handful of DC along with Gabe and chaplain, who would then charge a threat(any gunline or a horde unit, the latter will be especially good option since they won't get shot to death turn after, so the assault marines and VVs can cause a lot more hurt, and eventually break the tarpit DC Seth and chaplain went into(providing Seth Doesn't RIP AND TEAR through them having rage, rampage and whirlwind of gore in mind )