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Azreal13 wrote: They're really not, they've had a crack recently, sure, but new usernames are easy to come by.
The sites in question would have to be really motivated to remove them permanently, and it does not appear that is the case.
You are off the mark here. I don't know where you think you are getting your info from, but it is wrong.
Do you live in China? Do you view these sites daily? Because I do.
And I'm telling you they are clamping down on it. They are Motivated.
Sure new usernames are easy to come by....but the shops are unable to use the real names or pictures for the products.
Because of this they are finding it difficult to get new customers, or even get in contact with old customers, particularly foreigners (who are 99% of the market).
Most are choosing to go their own way and use their existing clients without the direct use of a 3rd party. This is good for people who know them and want to buy recasts, but bad for new customers, as they are near impossible to find.
This may change in the future, as things are always in flux here, but for the past 8 months or so the number of accessible recasting shops has been in decline.
I'm not sure that's do. A friend of mine and I were able to search fo rthe exact same products on GW with the same images and names and there were several people offering them.
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Big Blind Bill wrote: If you have to use reddit or 4chan to find a page on a cataloging site, instead of the site's search engine, you can be sure that whatever they are selling is against the site's rules.
Before you could simply search for warhammer on those sites and get lots of recast hits. Now you can't. Rules have changed.
Oh, and not mentioning the shops but mentioning the third party sites? Come on, you don't see the fault in that reasoning?
As you have said, you have to check reddit or 4chan for the links. You can't find them by using the site's search engine.
So no, I can't see a fault.
Or just google them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 03:11:58
nosferatu1001 wrote: quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from,
You do?
I'm interested to know where you get that from?
Is it a good idea to know where you're buying from, especially in an environment where you aren't dealing with a person face-to-face and are separated by thousands of miles? Absolutely. But a duty? Sounds a bit excessive to me.
and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
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DCannon4Life wrote: I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
Yes, there is a magic point where revenue is maximised, but it isn't always at the highest price per unit, as each price increase will net you fewer sales beyond a certain point. That has to be traded off against cost of production (materials, labour etc..)
If, for instance, a 30% drop in RRP generated a 75% increase in sales, then it would seem to be a good idea, but that assumes production costs are linear. If they aren't (or don't drop significantly beyond a certain volume) then it can mean you're working a lot harder for no significant gain. Then it becomes a judgment call as to whether it is worth all the extra effort.
That said, I really don't see how that would apply to what is essentially a pretty traditional manufacturing set up like FW, as, assuming they didn't massively over invest in production and just did enough extra to keep pace with demand, the only possible disproportionate cost increase in costs would probably be increased wear and tear on moulds, and I somehow doubt the cost of that couldn't be absorbed easily by the increased income.
Personally, I think the biggest barrier to a price drop (assuming the numbers stack up were it to happen) is the GW attitude that they sell premium products at premium prices, and to charge less somehow devalues their brand (and apparently that's more important than making more cash.)
What I would be interested in is a comparison between the turnovers of the recast industry and FW themselves, because FW and BL combined don't generate a significant amount of GW's revenue (~10% IIRC) so it doesn't seem beyond plausible that FW aren't the biggest sellers of FW products on the planet!
Problem is the recast stuff tends to be of more consistent quality than Forge World. Once the molds are made (which has become SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper), the cost of further production is basically nothing, as demonstrated by the recasters.
I know a guy who got two FW Knights and a Fire Raptor for about $140, shipping included. That's normally like $700, not counting shipping. The cast quality was as good or better than Forgeworld, and I've never seen a china model with droopy barrels the way that every single FW gun comes. It kind of reminds me of this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
Except everyone still goes and buys Game of Thrones when it comes out, so HBO doesn't care. FW, on the other hand...
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
A friend of mine and I were able to search fo rthe exact same products on GW with the same images and names and there were several people offering them.
On the Chinese equivalent of Amazon you cannot find any recasts by searching the names of most units. You will find GW models, but they will be 90%-100% of the GB standard price, so either they are expensive fakes, or they are the real thing. Either way it would not be worth people in foreign countries (except Australia) buying them.
So how did GW actually shut them down? Why would they shut down if they didn't have to worry about anything because they were in China?
The actual shops don't get shut down. Their physical effects remain untouched. All that happens is the 3rd party who host their shop remove it, or force them to change their products. I don't know what has changed their policy.
Most shops still have the recasts, but they no longer advertise them. Instead you have to talk to the seller and ask if they have what you need.
finances their small home studio with 3d printer
In my experience most Chinese recast shops don't actually recast themselves, at least not most of their products. I've visited one of the places, and it was distribution centre rather than a factory.
I've talked with the owners of 3 or so of the shops, and they've told me that they buy or order the recasts from off site. I'm sure some of the models I've got are manufactured from the same place, but sold on different sites.
I don't know how this would effect profit for them. They wouldn't have to pay the large setup fee for buying a 3d printer and making the moulds, but they would earn less on each model they make.
I suppose it could be a way for them to get around the law, as they are not recasting, they are just selling a product (which they could claim they thought is genuine).
DarkLink wrote: I know a guy who got two FW Knights and a Fire Raptor for about $140, shipping included. That's normally like $700, not counting shipping. The cast quality was as good or better than Forgeworld, and I've never seen a china model with droopy barrels the way that every single FW gun comes. It kind of reminds me of this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
Except everyone still goes and buys Game of Thrones when it comes out, so HBO doesn't care. FW, on the other hand...
Game of Thrones? I know like eight other shows I've had that problem with.
A friend of mine and I were able to search fo rthe exact same products on GW with the same images and names and there were several people offering them.
On the Chinese equivalent of Amazon you cannot find any recasts by searching the names of most units. You will find GW models, but they will be 90%-100% of the GB standard price, so either they are expensive fakes, or they are the real thing. Either way it would not be worth people in foreign countries (except Australia) buying them.
Never said it was Amazon. On the site ****, there were several recast Fire Raptors that could be ordered. Hell, an Imperial Knight was only $60, and the IK web bundle was only $160, with pictures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 05:44:50
2. Re-casts are not made through slave-labour.
I realize it's a popular trope that red China is basically the DPRK but bigger and scarier, but for heaven's sake... The biggest re-casters outsource the production to large factories that, to be honest, aren't places where I'm dreaming of getting a job, but still have massive amounts of people lining up to work. And, they are subject to Chinese wage legislation, with a minimum wage increasing by about 20% every year. In addition, these factories in particular usually pay about 15-20% above minimum wage (to keep the turnover down). In Shanghai and Guangdong, where they are located, this is about 3500rmb and 3000rmb per month, respectively.
3. Re-casts vary in quality.
There is a lot of crap out there. Go look around where these kinds of things are discussed, and you'll find plenty of people bemoaning the lumps of resin they've received. But certain re-casters are very serious about providing a quality product, and some of them are easily as good as the originals, possibly better.
4. People don't buy re-casts/download music solely due to price.
Music downloads have almost disappeared after streaming took off. Film downloads are heading the same direction too. And that's straight from the IP-lobby, not the Pirate Party. When even those guys are able to work through their ludicrous preconceived notions, why can't you?
5. There has been a big clampdown on re-casts lately.
Before, they were easily available and advertised mainly on two sites; China's domestic version of amazon/e-bay and China's international version of the same. Buying from these sites, due to how they worked, was safe and easy (no credit info to sellers, complaints about no delivery went to the site, etc). Now, you need to go on the d-l if you want to buy re-casts. What's left on these sites are genuine products from indies, FW re-sellers (buy from FW, import to China, sell to customers) and painted models.
6. The big re-casters have massive catalogs.
Not only do they sell everything GW and FW do, but they also have OOP stuff and limited edition miniatures. New stuff is usually for sale about 2 weeks after its official release date.
More fun facts:
- In Shanghai, there's a re-cast brick and mortar store (and two GW stores, plus a decent amount of indies with the real stuff).
- A clam-pack character is $3 if you know where to go and speak Chinese, $5 if you know where to go and don't speak Chinese, and $10 if you don't know where to go and don't speak Chinese.
- GW still make soft cover codexes, but only in Chinese. They cost the same as hard covers (300rmb - $50). As books are heavily subsidized in China, that puts them at a fairly high price point compared to soft cover novels, which typically retail for around 10-20rmb (~$2-3) in China (not fake).
- Chinese universities pirate foreign textbooks for their students.
- About the factory work above, H&M had a pretty hard time when they first established factories in China. They simply made sure their sub-contractors followed labour laws and paid minimum wage. With half the work force leaving over the course of a year, and a lot of money being spent on replacing old workers and training new, as well as problems with productivity since when most of the workers quit, they simply did not show up to work anymore, especially after Chinese New Year, they had to re-think their strategy. So, they upped the wages and took a much more active stance toward their sub-contractors to follow up on workers, and now they are one of the foreign companies in China with the highest worker retention rates (about ~95% y-o-y).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 09:36:43
"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain.
Big Blind Bill wrote: On the Chinese equivalent of Amazon you cannot find any recasts by searching the names of most units.
Probably because the recasters don't bother with 'most' units. They tend to stick to the stuff that sells in larger quantities.
Well, actually, I have been able to find 100% of the CSM, IG and Tyrand lines, including OOP models, available from recasters. Some of them actually have their act together.
That said, I have bought models from recasters before and the quality varies widely from what you would get from GW or FW. What's important is not how a model looks the day you get it, but how it looks a couple years afterwards. I had a Predator my FLGS used to call the sadpred, it was literally collapsing in the middle and all the guns started to point downwards. This started about 1.5 years after getting the model and eventually resulted in something that was not worth fielding b/c you could not really determine LOS from any of the guns.
For any recast I ever bought, I would have paid about the same after replacing it once the plastic started to go south.
In terms of recasts, there is nothing superior about recasts except price. The recasts aren't free, and they have to ship, usually by very slow post, from some developing country far, far away. If the recasts weren't cheaper, nobody would ever buy them.
I don't think it's possible for FW/GW to lower their prices to compete with recasters, because they'd never be able to afford to pay sculptors to make new models. The recasts of popular large models can be *insanely* cheap.
Both your statements are wrong.
Some recasters have much better quality than FW or GW finecast, none of them have any release agent to remove, some of them have better casting quality than ForgeWorld, with less warp, bubbles, sprue, mold lines, etc.
The cost of sculpting new models is overrated. A professional miniature sculptor will ask about 400 bucks for an extremely detailed (Primarch++) sculpt.
FW/GW could totally compete with recasters, but they wouldn't be able to pay business development costs and would have to make their books self-sufficient as they wouldn't be supported by miniature sales anymore.
Well, I don't see how a cast could be superior. I mean, maybe it is a nicer material to work with (I've never actually worked with one, so I can't say), but there can't be more detail than the original. The release agent is no big deal. I mean, you're going to wash all the pieces anyways, right?
How much do you think a sculptor makes as a salary? I don't think GW pays its sculptors piecework >.< Then, there's the space they take, benefits, management overhead, etc. It's a business, man.
I think you sort of failed your quote.
Here's how a recast can be superior:
Better Resin
Less moldlines
Less flash
No Hard to Remove release agent (it IS a big deal)
Less Sprue to remove / less chance of damage in transport
Less Warp (when the recasters take the time to unwarp what they've received from FW, their recasts can have zero warp as any resin cast should have)
Less / No Bubbles
There is no point for a company like GW to hire a Sculptor full time, or if there is, it would be one sculptor for the whole company.
They don't produce 48 actually new models every year afaik. The vast majority of their range is slight variations that could've been kitbashed / converted from existing kits.
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Sir Arun wrote: Recasters sell for a price that covers material costs, finances their small home studio with 3d printer and affordable living in the Chinese market (where cost of living is cheaper)
GW sells for a price that includes all of the above (adjusted to UK cost of living) and then some to finance their IP trademarks, pay their design team who come up with the ideas for the miniatures in the first place, pay for logistics and distribution, warehouse maintenance, future investments and revenues for shareholders.
Do you mean ideas for miniatures and fluff that they had ten years ago already ?
Logistics, distribution, warehousing, shareholder revenue are all costs that recasters have as well.
The only thing that GW has on top of recasters is the production of fluff / books / rules, which is not such a big cost overall.
I mean, let's look at the Revenant Titan which is arguably the best recast there is.
There's one set of rules, that uses the exact same weapons as everyone, two large blast strength D per weapon.
It has a 36" movement, is based off a much older miniature (armorcast uglies) and maybe even older one (epic ?), so it has a cost of 0 in terms of invention for the last twenty years maybe.
The design is neat, nice adaptation of the epic / armorcast thing, and the sculpting is minimalist, almost no details but that's fine because it's Eldar.
So overall, the new Revenant may have costed two or three hours of rules/concept/fluff work before pictures and all the other marketing stuff, and then the cost of its sculpting which is maybe one week of work including drawing.
Even the chinese could deal with those costs, some of the recasters have pictures of their kits, as well as pictures of assembled and well painted kits, so where's all that cost you think GW has and the recasters don't ?
Most of it is inefficiency, some of it is a large margin, and a tiny bit of it is the marketing (fulff / nice pictures / books) if said content is not self-sufficient.
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Davor wrote: I got a question. If it's legal in China, how do they get shut down then? I don't know remember the name but wasn't it said one or two got shut down a few weeks ago?
So how did GW actually shut them down? Why would they shut down if they didn't have to worry about anything because they were in China?
Let's imagine that I go to a website, from Belgium, that lets me access "illegal copies".
The owner of the copyright learns about that website.
The owner of the copyright contacts the website threatening legal action for their support of illegal activity.
The owner of the website decides they'd rather lose .0001% of their revenue (recasts) than 52% of their revenue (EU business).
Or, the owner decides they don't give a gak, their website is audited officially and blocked by your ISP.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 10:31:35
Something being illegal doesn't necessarily mean it isn't going to exist, though. In fact, it's more likely TO exist if it's illegal. The owner of the IP is the one who has to spend money to stop them, money that has to come from somewhere - and it's not usually a cost effective thing, EVEN if you do manage to shut them down.
The laws and the ENFORCEMENT of those laws will vary from country to country. Just because it might not be legal in one country, doesn't necessarily follow that it is illegal everywhere.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
They have dedicated sculptors, so one of your questions is pretty easy to answer.
Apparently you dont, but GW does. Maybe they know more than a nobody on the internet about employing high quality scultpors year in, year on, and more than a little about how to attract and retain talent? Piecemeal works for some people and ways of doing business, not others.
Even on (IMO) a very optimistic estimate of £50k a year, That's £192 a day (before tax, etc) based on 52x5 day working weeks.
So, even then, assuming we're talking infantry, 30mm scale, you're talking approx 1.5 working days for GW to spend in salary the figure that's being proposed for a one off sculpt.
I have no trouble believing a professional sculptor can produce a single 30mm scale model in approx 12 hours.
That's assuming, of course, they're on £50k. I suspect they're on nearer £30k on average, but that's based purely on instinct.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Yeah, it's all about enforcement.
If GW will drop prices, recasters will go out of business, because they pay production cost and shiping costs and it's not as cheap as you think.
Most Chinese recasts usually very fragile and will shatter if it's fall. But I know one shop that still working and have better quality.
Check out my paintjobs Instagram:dmitriisheroshenko
http://www.youtube.com/user/WarGaming4Example/
I prefer to support the real thing. So there is still a real thing. Anyone who buys recasts is simply a d-bag in my opinion. If you don't want to spend money in an expensive hobby, you are in the wrong hobby.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 05:32:34
Rippy wrote: I prefer to support the real thing. So there is still a real thing. Anyone who buys recasts is simply a d-bag in my opinion.
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Speaking up for the other d-bags here. I used to pirate music, all of the music. That's when CD's were priced locally at about $4 per song and you'd only really enjoy the half of the album that wasn't filler. Did the music industry die as a result? Oh, wait, they adapted to a new distribution method and more reasonable pricing. Haven't pirated music in years now. Steam did the same thing for video games and the movie industry is slowly figuring it out too.
Also, if stealing a car even remotely compared to digital IP infringement (it doesn't and is an idiotic comparison) I'd be driving a new car every day.
Rippy wrote: I prefer to support the real thing. So there is still a real thing. Anyone who buys recasts is simply a d-bag in my opinion.
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Speaking up for the other d-bags here. I used to pirate music, all of the music. That's when CD's were priced locally at about $4 per song and you'd only really enjoy the half of the album that wasn't filler. Did the music industry die as a result? Oh, wait, they adapted to a new distribution method and more reasonable pricing. Haven't pirated music in years now. Steam did the same thing for video games and the movie industry is slowly figuring it out too.
Also, if stealing a car even remotely compared to digital IP infringement (it doesn't and is an idiotic comparison) I'd be driving a new car every day.
You can justify that you are a white knight saving the rest of us from high prices in the long run in your head, though the reality is you are knowingly stealing.
MarsNZ wrote: Nowhere am I justifying anything, nor do I deny stealing (it says right there in the last sentence).
Promoting yourself as some IP champion then deriding someone else as a white knight is pretty funny to see though.
There is a big difference between white knighting and pointing out facts. I don't know what your point is then. All I said is it is stealing, and I don't like thieves.
Also you misunderstand the comparison. Stealing is a car is the same as stealing GWs profits, just one isn't as big of a crime as the other. That is all that is saying.
You know what is really funny? The music in the video above was made for a single event, then the copyright organisation that ordered it stole it and started putting it on DVDs. ;-)
You know what is really funny? The music in the video above was made for a single event, then the copyright organisation that ordered it stole it and started putting it on DVDs. ;-)
Rippy wrote: There is a big difference between white knighting and pointing out facts. I don't know what your point is then. All I said is it is stealing, and I don't like thieves.
Also you misunderstand the comparison. Stealing is a car is the same as stealing GWs profits, just one isn't as big of a crime as the other. That is all that is saying.
My dear white knight, you are pointing out gak.
Your points come from the perennial assumption that if the pirated product didn't exist, the people buying it would automatically buy the official product instead. That has been proven wrong so many times it's got beyond silly to keep resorting to that argument again and again.
I have some forgeworld recasted replicas, I bought them because they were offered at a price I considered acceptable. I would have never bought the official product because its price is ridiculous. If the recasted product weren't available, I would have looked for alternatives among other model ranges. Which I prefer to before going the recast route, by the way.
Not to mention recasters also tend to offer products that GW simply no longer produces. Sometimes it's either pay a ridiculous amount of money on eBay or go the recast route, because you want a product GW does not want to sell (probably because they replaced it some time ago by a new & crappy plastic toy).
And if you want to support your argument with audiovisual resources, I'm glad to inform you this is the one:
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
Rippy wrote: There is a big difference between white knighting and pointing out facts. I don't know what your point is then. All I said is it is stealing, and I don't like thieves.
Also you misunderstand the comparison. Stealing is a car is the same as stealing GWs profits, just one isn't as big of a crime as the other. That is all that is saying.
My dear white knight, you are pointing out gak.
Your points come from the perennial assumption that if the pirated product didn't exist, the people buying it would automatically buy the official product instead. That has been proven wrong so many times it's got beyond silly to keep resorting to that argument again and again.
I have some forgeworld recasted replicas, I bought them because they were offered at a price I considered acceptable. I would have never bought the official product because its price is ridiculous. If the recasted product weren't available, I would have looked for alternatives among other model ranges. Which I prefer to before going the recast route, by the way.
Not to mention recasters also tend to offer products that GW simply no longer produces. Sometimes it's either pay a ridiculous amount of money on eBay or go the recast route, because you want a product GW does not want to sell (probably because they replaced it some time ago by a new & crappy plastic toy).
And if you want to support your argument with audiovisual resources, I'm glad to inform you this is the one:
My fellow white knight, just because you are too poor/unwilling to support the real product that you are stealing, doesnt justify your theft anymore than if you would have bought it legitimately. Your point is moot, and just because you personally have decided that the price is unreasonable, doesn't mean you should be allowed to steal it. Your perception is laughably immature, naive and unrealistic. Cute that you are so able to create this justifiable fantasy in your head though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 09:30:23
To steal: you have something, I do not. I take it from you. Now you don't have it and I do.
To copy: you have something, I do not. I make a copy of your thing. Now you have it and I do as well.
We could discuss the implications of copyright, but to plainly say I'm "stealing" anything just shows how you have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts right before even bringing them up the table.
If you want to feel the glorious and mighty white knight who stands besides the GW do-gooders and calls out the devious and evil "thieves", do so, but then don't pretend the "thieves" are the inmature, naive and unrealistic ones, lol.
Mostly because they're getting the same product as you (or even better) for half (or even less) the price. Does that make you feel like a fool? Who's the naive one here?
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
To steal: you have something, I do not. I take it from you. Now you don't have it and I do.
To copy: you have something, I do not. I make a copy of your thing. Now you have it and I do as well.
We could discuss the implications of copyright, but to plainly say I'm "stealing" anything just shows how you have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts right before even bringing them up the table.
If you want to feel the glorious and mighty white knight who stands besides the GW do-gooders and calls out the devious and evil "thieves", do so, but then don't pretend the "thieves" are the inmature, naive and unrealistic ones, lol.
Mostly because they're getting the same product as you (or even better) for half (or even less) the price. Does that make you feel like a fool? Who's the naive one here?
Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 09:52:34
~1.5k
Game of Thrones? I know like eight other shows I've had that problem with.
5000 
