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 Korinov wrote:
Look, this is how it works.

To steal: you have something, I do not. I take it from you. Now you don't have it and I do.

To copy: you have something, I do not. I make a copy of your thing. Now you have it and I do as well.

You need to keep in mind that some countries have, almost just about, equated the two things. This is one of the issues with discussing these things online.
Different countries have different laws.

Please, note that I am not disagreeing with the sentiment of your post in general terms.
We should indeed say; "the crime is Copyright Infringement" when that is the case, not; "the crime is Theft".

Saying it is stealing is, in a lot of cases, a blatant appeal to emotion.

As far as I'm aware recasting isn't an endightable offence in the UK, it will usually carry a very hefty fine but not a criminal sentence, that comes in usually as a result of what the proceeds are used for, drugs etc.

 Rippy wrote:

Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic
If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.

Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.

As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.

So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:

- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!

Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.

Recasters are a symptom of a problem; people enjoy 40k/Fantasy, but they have been priced out of the hobby. Yes it is morally dubious, but considering how popular recasts are becoming, and this is important, the quality on offer is comparable to GW's for a tiny fraction of the price, this is something to be noticed beyond any moralistic arguement.

A few things to take away:

a) Businesses exist and are evidently profitable enough to cast and ship GW product at 20-30% of GW's prices. GW/FW will have higher costs (artists, storage [most recasters cast-to-order from what I understand] GW stores) but that is insufficient to justify the different, especially considering the quality of recasts; we're not talking knock-off electronics here, most are indistinguishable, and recasts of Finecast are generally better than finecast (and some even offer metal casts for such things, still at a fraction of the finecast price). GW could stand to lower prices, remain profitable and get some of that recast business.

b) Demand. People are willing to go through all manner of hoops to get lower-cost 40k/Fantasy product. The product remains popular enough for people to go to great lengths to get it. People who buy recasts are no doubt only a small percentage of the playerbase, due to moral disagreements with it, uncertainty over buying product from China, etc, but the fact remains the IP is popular as all hell; you won't find recast Infinity, Bolt Action and only a tiny amount of Warmahordes.

c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.

The whole recast industry represents a good way for GW to rectify its problems in achieving growth; their business isn't going anywhere at present, and all they have to do is look at the "alternatives" to see why people aren't buying. Recasting is the response to out-of-control and inconsistent pricing, sure, GW can try to shut it down, but the Music industry tried that for years fruitlessly and finally realized that offering their product in a different way at better prices they wouldn't have to worry about piracy. Some people will always pirate/buy recasts, but the majority will prefer the "authentic" product provided it offers value for money. Fleecing your customers doesn't engender brand loyalty, whether that be buying recasts or going to a competitor, they represent the same kind of problem.

 Korinov wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic
If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.

Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.

As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.

So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:

- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!

Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.

I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.

To Be honest, I can understand getting models that are no longer available to a point, as you physically cannot get them any other way.

IMO there's two perspectives to consider: legal and moral.

From a legal standpoint, recasting is most likely illegal in most countries. However, what about buying and owning recasts? Where I live it seems to be 100% legal.

From a moral standpoint however, I feel there's no right answer, as every man draws the line in a different spot.
Some people feel it's stealing and therefore wrong.
Other feel it's just getting a product cheaper/smarter therefore it's totally ok.
Others are somewhat in the middle. For example I feel recasting is somewhat morally questionable, but then so I feel about a lot of stuff GW does (their ridiculous pricing policy being top of the list, so for me buying recasts is a way of 'gettng even with the evil corporation' :p

LordBlades wrote:
IMO there's two perspectives to consider: legal and moral.

From a legal standpoint, recasting is most likely illegal in most countries. However, what about buying and owning recasts? Where I live it seems to be 100% legal.

From a moral standpoint however, I feel there's no right answer, as every man draws the line in a different spot.
Some people feel it's stealing and therefore wrong.
Other feel it's just getting a product cheaper/smarter therefore it's totally ok.
Others are somewhat in the middle. For example I feel recasting is somewhat morally questionable, but then so I feel about a lot of stuff GW does (their ridiculous pricing policy being top of the list, so for me buying recasts is a way of 'gettng even with the evil corporation' :p

Yeah well said mate. I have said my peice and will leave it at that!

 Rippy wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic
If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.

Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.

As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.

So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:

- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!

Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.

I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.

To Be honest, I can understand getting models that are no longer available to a point, as you physically cannot get them any other way.

Wow... You sir need to get off that high horse, I'd happily bet pennies to pounds that you have an Apple product of some kind, have eaten at McDonald's, shop at some massive chain supermarket etc. That means you support a whole range of "immoral" activity, including theft, sweat shops and all that, saying that someone is stealing when they buy a recast is total nonsense, don't point figures at people for doing something you think is morally wrong when you do tthings that others find morally wrong, cast the first stone and all that

 Formosa wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic
If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.

Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.

As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.

So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:

- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!

Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.

I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.

To Be honest, I can understand getting models that are no longer available to a point, as you physically cannot get them any other way.

Wow... You sir need to get off that high horse, I'd happily bet pennies to pounds that you have an Apple product of some kind, have eaten at McDonald's, shop at some massive chain supermarket etc. That means you support a whole range of "immoral" activity, including theft, sweat shops and all that, saying that someone is stealing when they buy a recast is total nonsense, don't point figures at people for doing something you think is morally wrong when you do tthings that others find morally wrong, cast the first stone and all that

I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.

 Rippy wrote:

I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.

Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?

Speaking of morals...

I do "support software creators" instead of bothering with digital piracy. But I do so not because of principles, but also for reasons like safety, time conservation, support that legit publishers/developers offer. Quite some time ago those companies didn't offer any of that, but simple market laws effectively led to consumers making a point against situation that bore symptoms not dissimilar to typical faults of monopolized fields of production: no incentive for publishers to either bother with better products and services or with adjusting prices even though there was a room for that. Times have changed and impact piracy did is not to be dismissed.

Just the fact that such change was possible means that people involved into piracy weren't the only ones acting "immoral" (parenthesis are used because morals are extremely subjective and sometimes controversial), and, by extension, so can be said about people who supported whatever party we are talking about, even if what they did at the time seemed like right thing to do.

Just as you can see people breaking norms of morals and law for nothing more than personal gain, you can also learn just how many norms and laws there were in the history of humanity that are by no means are considered highly moral today, not to mention legality.

The only thing I can be sure of (with the caveat that it's still subjective) is that whenever you support something, be it law, principle, particular group or power, make sure that it is for the betterment of relevant aspect of life involved.

That's really it.

 Rippy wrote:
I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.

:|

I don't buy recasted products out of the "excitement" related to adquiring things "inmorally". I have bought recasted products because I have considered them 1) a good deal in terms of quality/price and 2) a better deal than other options (one of such options, the official product).

There's no "I'm gonna get back at evil corporation" feeling here. It's just a matter of being a smart customer. Example: if Forgeworld offers a product for 50$ and Mr. Chinese Recaster manages to offer the very same product (or even better, as he's a really good recaster and has actually improved upon the original mould) for 25$, I'll then have a look at shipping costs, guarantees and probability of having unwanted issues. I did. I asked people around my local area (and some people I've known for a long time in the net) about their experiences with both FW and recasters. Thing is, almost all the people I asked had more positive things to say about the recaster than about FW, both in terms to shipping costs and the actual quality of the product. In fact, when asked about the chinese recaster, most of them lamented he doesn't have a wider catalogue of available products.

Then you have the issue I've already mentioned and MajorStoffer adressed specifically: OOP models. There are some now-oop GW models I really like. Some of them I've been able to obtain via eBay for a reasonable price. Others, there's simply no way. So in the end, recasters were the only available solution. And to get five OOP models for less than what just one of them is likely to cost on eBay, what can I say? Deal.

I'm the 'getting back at evil corporations' guy. What I mean by that:

Both me and my wife are high enough in the corporate food chain to be involved in or at least have visibility on quite a few management decisions, and the abstract morals of the matters at hand usually take a back seat to 'does this make us more money?' (as long as it's legal ofc).

GW is in this to make money. They're not charging me a price they think its 'fair' or 'reasonable'. They're charging me the price somebody has calculated will bring maximum revenue.

I'm in it to enjoy my hobby at a reasonable cost without breaking any laws. Therefore, when GW gies beyond the (purely subjective) reasonable limit, I buy recasts. For example: Tau Broadsides.

 Korinov wrote:

:|

I don't buy recasted products out of the "excitement" related to adquiring things "inmorally". I have bought recasted products because I have considered them 1) a good deal in terms of quality/price and 2) a better deal than other options (one of such options, the official product).

There's no "I'm gonna get back at evil corporation" feeling here. It's just a matter of being a smart customer.

The "smart customer" analogy would work if you were talking about one company versus another company's product. But you're not. You're talking about the choice between a legal version of a product, and an illegal version of a product.

For example, you look at Games Workshop models, and decide they're too expensive and not good enough for your tastes. So you decide instead you'll buy Privateer Press models.

Your analogy is basically saying "Hmmm I want a Ferari, but they cost 100,000. Oh look, this guy I met in a back alley is willing to sell me THIS Ferari, which might be stolen or made from knock-off parts, for only $50,000". Yes, in the end you have a Ferari, but it's not legal.

Murrdox wrote:


Your analogy is basically saying "Hmmm I want a Ferari, but they cost 100,000. Oh look, this guy I met in a back alley is willing to sell me THIS Ferari, which might be stolen or made from knock-off parts, for only $50,000". Yes, in the end you have a Ferari, but it's not legal.

Except:
-You know it's not stolen but a knock-off
-Guy never claims it's anything but a knock-off
-Buying it is legal at least un some places

Murrdox wrote:


Your analogy is basically saying "Hmmm I want a Ferari, but they cost 100,000. Oh look, this guy I met in a back alley is willing to sell me THIS Ferari, which might be stolen or made from knock-off parts, for only $50,000". Yes, in the end you have a Ferari, but it's not legal.

It's not a Ferrari either.

It is just something that looks like a Ferrari, sounds like a Ferrari and goes like a Ferrari, but costs half as much.

Honestly a lot of the problem at least with FW is the company's own QC and the general culture of China where bribes are considered a perk of elevated position.

Models with minor defects are tossed out, and either an employee takes them as a bonus and they just end up on Chinese ebay. Then, people in Hong Kong buy them for a quarter of retail and sell them for half of retail or they get re casted.

Anyone from China can walk into the FW manufacturing plant and get whatever they want at a "factory discount" from the shift manager for pennies on the dollar. It's that easy to start a recast site-it's actually what my Chinese roommate did to get me an entire FW Mechanicum army for Christmas when he went home (I asked for an explanation because I was hoping he hadn't just gone and bought me 2000$ Of minis. Apparently the grand total for "I knew you liked that army so I got you one of everything" was 50$ American).

The world is getting smaller. Different people think things are worth different amounts. Don't expect to see less of this sort of thing as time goes on if Asia continues to be the world's biggest manufacturing base.

Forge World manufacture in the UK, and have done so for many years.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.

Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?

Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.

 Rippy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.

Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?

Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.

yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.

How is that out of context? You just admitted to purchasing things made with immoral business practices.

When I buy a bigmac I don't think "feth the little guy in a factory who made the wrapping and boxes for this meal". I am pretty sure this thought doesn't cross many people's minds when they are buying food. I don't even know the facts for that at all. I know that when Big W started using Bangaleshi workers, the public cried out at their expense, though a journalist simply going over there and speaking to the workers showed how thankful the people were for the influx of jobs.
Though when it comes to stealing other people's intellectual property, I have control over that. I know that the music, the miniatures, the movies are owned by someone who can rightfully get the money they are entitled to by someone making a purchase of their copyrighted product.
I guess what I am saying is, although factory workers in other countries having decent human rights is a big deal, and it hurts my heart that people are willing to exploit people for money is terrible, what can I do about it? Honestly, most products floating around in Western Countries are made in those factories. What I can do is not steal. See my point?

 Rippy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.

Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?

Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.

"I occasionally..... ....but I don't see that as immoral"

Seems pretty cut and dried to me, you're arguing that recasts are immoral, but supporting businesses that employ practices that would get them prosecuted into bankruptcy in the West and claiming you don't see the immorality.

When one quotes an entire paragraph and whole sentences, it is pretty difficult to remove context.

Either way, I asked you a direct question about clarifying your position, because what you were claiming seemed utterly facile. Rather than arguing with me, maybe take the opportunity to clarify what you meant, as I originally asked?

Anyway, this classic politician trick to attack my character is actually off topic
Point still stands, recasting is stealing. Buying them is immoral.


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 Azreal13 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.

Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?

Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.

"I occasionally..... ....but I don't see that as immoral"

Seems pretty cut and dried to me, you're arguing that recasts are immoral, but supporting businesses that employ practices that would get them prosecuted into bankruptcy in the West and claiming you don't see the immorality.

When one quotes an entire paragraph and whole sentences, it is pretty difficult to remove context.

Either way, I asked you a direct question about clarifying your position, because what you were claiming seemed utterly facile. Rather than arguing with me, maybe take the opportunity to clarify what you meant, as I originally asked?

See above.

It's just wrong to say that theft of intellectual proper is ok because the item is too expensive/overpriced/undervalued. When someone can't afford to buy a soundtrack, it is not ok to download it; when someone cannot afford HBO it is not ok to torrent GoT; when someone thinks a videogame is overpriced with DLCs, it's not ok to pirate it.

This isn't just me saying so, it's the law in almost every civilized country in this world, including ones in which enforcement is very lax.

To the point of recasters and 40k: A small number of units like IK, other titans, and expensive models might make some financial sense (the savings can be huge). For all the infantry sized stuff though, I don't see the savings at all (considering the other factors, like convenience, delivery and safety).

I'm not sure how convenience, delivery or safety factor into it?

With FW especially, it's all mail order, it's all ordered online and it's made of the same stuff.




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Look, it boils down to this, either you're ok with purchasing something that breaks copyright law, or you're not.

Everything else is just an attempt at justification in favour of one side or the other.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm not sure how convenience, delivery or safety factor into it?

With FW especially, it's all mail order, it's all ordered online and it's made of the same stuff.

I think the safety part comes in as you don't know what chemicals are being used with the recasters. A minor point though still a valid one I guess.

 Talys wrote:
For all the infantry sized stuff though, I don't see the savings at all (considering the other factors, like convenience, delivery and safety).

Could you define "convenience" and "delivery"? Virtually every chinese recaster has cheaper delivery rates than FW, some even offer free shipping for anything you may buy, others offer it if the order goes over a certain amount (not huge amounts in any case). In terms of speed, from China to Western Europe it's usually between 2 and 3 weeks.

And safety... please tell me this is not the point where again I have to read incredible stories about radioactive resin that eats your hands and eyes the very second you open the package.

The way you're saying what I've quoted, I have the feeling you're not really acquainted with recasts.

When this topic had its monthly do over in Discussions a few weeks ago, Sigvtar actually explained he'd had his recasts tested because he has young children and wanted to be sure.

They're technically slightly more toxic than FW resin, but not in any meaningful sense, certainly not to the point where he was concerned for his children or his own health.

It goes to the argument that what is sufficiently more toxic than resin to pose a threat once cured that won't kill the casters in short order, behaves like resin for casting purposes and is sufficiently cheaper than resin to provide an incentive to use it?

It simply isn't really possible to form a coherent and plausible argument in favour of recast resin being meaningfully toxic.

@Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.

A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.

With GW/FW, they'll just resend anything lost, and PayPal protects you as well (though I don't recall anyone who has ever had to go that route).

My point though, wad that except for expensive FW models and (expensive) FW single model heroes, the recasters aren't really cheaper. With many GW kits, the prices are close (if not more, factoring discounts). And the quality is great on some, while iffy on others.

I'm fine playing with people who have knockoffs (a friend has more than $5000 of Chinese knockoffs -- though I'm pretty sure he ha three times that in GW stuff), so I get to see quite a bit of it. I just don't see the appeal, generally speaking, with the exception of a small number of big kits (revenants and knights being at the top).

 Azreal13 wrote:
When this topic had its monthly do over in Discussions a few weeks ago, Sigvtar actually explained he'd had his recasts tested because he has young children and wanted to be sure.

They're technically slightly more toxic than FW resin, but not in any meaningful sense, certainly not to the point where he was concerned for his children or his own health.

It goes to the argument that what is sufficiently more toxic than resin to pose a threat once cured that won't kill the casters in short order, behaves like resin for casting purposes and is sufficiently cheaper than resin to provide an incentive to use it?

It simply isn't really possible to form a coherent and plausible argument in favour of recast resin being meaningfully toxic.

All i know about its physical effects is that its brittle and it off gasses like feth (but doesn't smell once painted and sealed)

Ether way im pretty sure recast sites are not actually legal or the Chinese government just doesn't give a skavens warpstone about it.